U.S. Muslims and Mormons share deepening ties

[Popeyesays]

Your first argument must have been hard to make with a straight face. How about we finish that one?

You claimed Joseph Smith recieved no new revelation.

I have demonstrated your assertion to be false.

Would you like to concede that you are wrong or should I continue to list revelations recieved by Joseph Smith and you can explain why you think they are not revelation?



I have to disagree with you. In what way do you think it is not incorrect to call people by the wrong name? They are two completely different individuals.... with different names.... :slap:



ok...



No offense but it is retarded to use text that I do not accept as scripture in order to convi[n]ce me. Obviously the writings of Baha`u'llah hold no position of authority for me.

Quotations from scripture -- any scripture -- never prove a thing.

But they can demonstrate the reason for a belief, or an illustration of a point of view.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

so what are you saying ? it sounds like a revelation to me!

It was a vision, like John the Divine had for the Apocalypse. Sometimes synonyms can be too sliperry for precise meaning.

vision:
2 c: direct mystical awareness of the supernatural usually in visible form

As opposed to: revelation:
1 a: an act of revealing or communicating divine truth b: something that is revealed by God to humans.

Sometimes one must chip away the excess to draw a distinction between to words when one wishes precision.

 

[YmirGF]

It was a vision, like John the Divine had for the Apocalypse. Sometimes synonyms can be too sliperry for precise meaning.

and there is little to support their fragile analysis of their vision all to often.

vision:
2 c: direct mystical awareness of the supernatural usually in visible form

As opposed to: revelation:
1 a: an act of revealing or communicating divine truth b: something that is revealed by God to humans.

And so, Comprehend, the idea being that if anyone is receiving a "true revelation", a term I personally hold with more than a measure of contempt, they will be supportive of the basic tenants of all that came before them. If one deviates from this preconceived pattern, then said "revelation" is to be deemed somewhat questionable, as there is no possibility that those who had prior "revelations" could have possibly been mistaken or in error.

Sometimes one must chip away the excess to draw a distinction between to words when one wishes precision.

True, but I rather expect that most chip away just enough to reveal their own preconceived images.

 

[Popeyesays]

and there is little to support their fragile analysis of their vision all to often.

And so, Comprehend, the idea being that if anyone is receiving a "true revelation", a term I personally hold with more than a measure of contempt, they will be supportive of the basic tenants of all that came before them. If one deviates from this preconceived pattern, then said "revelation" is to be deemed somewhat questionable, as there is no possibility that those who had prior "revelations" could have possibly been mistaken or in error.

True, but I rather expect that most chip away just enough to reveal their own preconceived images.

Too little support? I agree. Visions and seers are personalized communications at most, to stretch them to cover humanity as a whole is to invite material failure in the stretching.

One should consider what a Prophet has to say about those who were Prophets before Him. If there is no respect for those previous individuals, one should not give too much respect to the self-praoclaimed Prophet.

I would point out that all Prophets (true or false) are in essence self-proclaimed. Individuals must make their choices based on their best efforts to evaluate the claim.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

.

Bahai's do not deny the crucifixion, Kai. Neither do we believe that the Qur'an denies that Christ died on the cross, we say that the Qur'an says that Jesus gave up the spirit on the cross, and the flesh is immaterial. The Gospels also confirm that Christ gave up the spirit on the cross.

Neither are Christians heretics in Islam.

You're carrying your argument to an unsubstantiated extreme.

Regards,
Scott

you could be right i may be being extreme ,but there are extreme differences in faith here, you say the quran says jesus gave up the spirit on the cross, ( is this Bahai )because many muslims have told me that Allah put another in jesus's place, and it is heresy in Islam to say Allah has a son and is a father isnt it ? and wasnt it because the jews and christians had become heretical that God sent his message to Mohammed and Muhammed’s triumph signaled an end to heresy

 

[YmirGF]

I think part of the idea is that the fine print is irrelevant when dealing with the person.

Um... which "person" would that be? Trust me, WeepingGuitar, the "fine print" in Islam trumps ALL else and is hardly a case of not being relevant, as you seem inclined to believe.

 

[Popeyesays]

you could be right i may be being extreme ,but there are extreme differences in faith here, you say the quran says jesus gave up the spirit on the cross, ( is this Bahai )because many muslims have told me that Allah put another in jesus's place, and it is heresy in Islam to say Allah has a son and is a father isnt it ? and wasnt it because the jews and christians had become heretical that God sent his message to Mohammed and Muhammed’s triumph signaled an end to heresy

Jews and Christians cannot become heretical by Muslim standards. A heretic is one who has declared belief and then preached counter to that belief.

A christian who preaches as a christian has not declared a belief in Islam, and therefore can never be a heretic; because Christianity is not heretical by Islamic standards. Particular Christian beliefs might seem blasphemous to a Muslim, but not heretical because the Christians are not declared believers in Islam.

A Baha`i who WAS a declared believer in Islam and then becomes a vocal Baha'i, would be advancing heretical notions, but would be an apostate.

I, on the other hand, have never declared myself a Muslim, therefore that I declare myself to be Baha`i is not heretical, nor am I an apostate, because I was never a believer in the first place.

Granted there are Islamic courts where that would be too much of a nuance to bear, but that is because those courts are essentially apostate, no matter how much they demand to be considered Muslim.

As to the issue of the death of Christ, the belief that a 'double' was executed is weak as hadith, and certainly non-Quranical in nature. As such a Christian can be declared duped or fooled by such a belief but not heretical in relationship to Islam.

Regards,
Scott

 

[YmirGF]

Jews and Christians cannot become heretical by Muslim standards. A heretic is one who has declared belief and then preached counter to that belief.

Based on my shallow understanding of Islam, this is correct, Scott.

A christian who preaches as a christian has not declared a belief in Islam, and therefore can never be a heretic; because Christianity is not heretical by Islamic standards. Particular Christian beliefs might seem blasphemous to a Muslim, but not heretical because the Christians are not declared believers in Islam.

Agreed. Blasphemous, definitely; heresy, no.

I would suggest that Kai has just used the wrong word here and perhaps means it more in spirit, rather than in the technical sense. But his is getting a long, long way off topic now.

I think what seems odd about the Muslim/Mormon relationship is that if they are just sitting around ignoring theological differences, then the relationship is doomed to be a very superficial relationship. If they ever got into the nuts and bolts of things, I think the friendship would sour pretty fast. Hey, like who can't be friends when you chatter about common "safe" areas? I am confident I could befriend an environmentalist or a democrat as long as we stuck to general pleasantries. Piece of cake... but what... does it prove?

 

[Popeyesays]

I think what seems odd about the Muslim/Mormon relationship is that if they are just sitting around ignoring theological differences, then the relationship is doomed to be a very superficial relationship. If they ever got into the nuts and bolts of things, I think the friendship would sour pretty fast. Hey, like who can't be friends when you chatter about common "safe" areas? I am confident I could befriend an environmentalist or a democrat as long as we stuck to general pleasantries. Piece of cake... but what... does it prove?

It proves nothing but talk unless it includes a good deal of walking. Interfaith dialogue is a good thing as long as progress toward understanding is the object. If it recognizes that the ultimate goal is to find a common thread, it will be beneficial in that it promotes unity.

If the two groups start to proselytize each other then it will descend into acrimony and disunity. Abdu'l Baha teaches that if religion is the cause of disunity, then irreligion is better.

There is no doubt that Mormons and Muslims are two communities with strong family ties, a social ethic and altruism. Those are good ties to bind communities together.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

you missunderstand me a little, In Islam Abraham ,Moses and jesus are all muslims, jews and christians are muslims that have strayed from the true path , thus god intervened
" ..This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (Qur'an 5; 3)

but you are right we have strayed .

There is no doubt that Mormons and Muslims are two communities with strong family ties, a social ethic and altruism. Those are good ties to bind communities together.

these are ties that bind A community together,and usually sets it apart from another, the two groups do have these ties within their individual communities, wether they can accomodate each other remains to be seen

peace Kai

 

[Popeyesays]

"these are ties that bind A community together,and usually sets it apart from another, the two groups do have these ties within their individual communities, wether they can accomodate each other remains to be seen "

It certainly depends upon their motives and their desire to succeed. I suspect it will be superficial at most. In working with interfaith groups, the LDS church seems to mostly remain aloof--at least in my perrsonal experience.

Regards,
Scott

 

[yirme]

utter nonsense !how would you reconcile yourself in their further revelations after mohamed,or their view of Isa, its not prejudice but a different religion, dont you know that , what do you know about LDS beleif and how do you reconcile your beleifs with theirs, would you go to a LDS church service for example?
God has a body that looks like yours, though His body is immortal, perfected, and has a glory beyond description. He knows you personally and loves you more than you can comprehend. To help you find happiness in this life and guide you to return to live with Him, Heavenly Father provided a plan called the gospel? of Jesus Christ, a guide based on the life and teachings of His Son, Jesus Christ.

you are OK with that

After centuries of spiritual darkness, a restoration? of truth was needed. Under the Direction of our Heavenly Father, the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored on the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith. God has promised it will never be taken from His children again.

and that?



source:Mormon.org

sorry for my "late" reply, i have been busy training for jihad. you know, smoking a lot of herb, meditating, devouring helpless plant life.
seriously though, what about my statement is nonsense? you say it is nonsense but you do not point to anything about it being nonsense.
i am not ok with saying that God has a body. God is spirit-the prophets were clear on that. and i am not ok with what many believe about jesus-the bible does not say he is the son of God any more than psalms 82 says we are all sons of God, they are figurative, not literal. and i do not need to be ok with that, other people have to be ok with their beliefs if they choose to believe that. i do not have to agree with everything everyone does, and it does not mean i love them any less or any more if i disagree with something they do. nowhere in the quran does it say that someone should be treated differently for believing jesus is the son of God or that God has a body (it simply says that jesus is not the begotten son of God), and nowhere in the teachings of the prophets of the bible does it say that someone should be treated differently for not believing that jesus is the son of God.
people can follow whatever prophets they claim to follow, what is important is to be good to each other, do not oppress, and believe in The One God. matthew chapter 5 gets into a lot more detail if you want to read more islamic beliefs. that is what the quran tells us, that is what the bible tells us, regardless of your beliefs. that is what the verse from the quran, that you totally ignored in your response to my last post, tells us.
i do not believe joseph smith was a prophet and i see no need to attend a mormon church. different religious beliefs does not mean people cannot get along just fine. our beliefs need no reconciliation, i do not see why you think they do.

peace out

 

[Bishka]

You do realize that this article isn't talking about theological sameness?

It's more comparing the practices.

 

[kai]

sorry for my "late" reply, i have been busy training for jihad. you know, smoking a lot of herb, meditating, devouring helpless plant life.
seriously though, what about my statement is nonsense? you say it is nonsense but you do not point to anything about it being nonsense.
i am not ok with saying that God has a body. God is spirit-the prophets were clear on that. and i am not ok with what many believe about jesus-the bible does not say he is the son of God any more than psalms 82 says we are all sons of God, they are figurative, not literal. and i do not need to be ok with that, other people have to be ok with their beliefs if they choose to believe that. i do not have to agree with everything everyone does, and it does not mean i love them any less or any more if i disagree with something they do. nowhere in the quran does it say that someone should be treated differently for believing jesus is the son of God or that God has a body (it simply says that jesus is not the begotten son of God), and nowhere in the teachings of the prophets of the bible does it say that someone should be treated differently for not believing that jesus is the son of God.
people can follow whatever prophets they claim to follow, what is important is to be good to each other, do not oppress, and believe in The One God. matthew chapter 5 gets into a lot more detail if you want to read more islamic beliefs. that is what the quran tells us, that is what the bible tells us, regardless of your beliefs. that is what the verse from the quran, that you totally ignored in your response to my last post, tells us.
i do not believe joseph smith was a prophet and i see no need to attend a mormon church. different religious beliefs does not mean people cannot get along just fine. our beliefs need no reconciliation, i do not see why you think they do.

peace out

because i dont beleive two organisations with such radically differant beleifs can get on and your views are admirable but sadly utopian. thats my view yours is differant.

 

[kai]

You do realize that this article isn't talking about theological sameness?

It's more comparing the practices.

sure i know ! i just find it hard to swallow.

 

[TashaN]

sure i know ! i just find it hard to swallow.

Because ... ?

 

[kai]

Because ... ?

Greetings Abu Khalid my answer is simple

chalk and cheese

 

[Comprehend]

Quotations from scripture -- any scripture -- never prove a thing.

But they can demonstrate the reason for a belief, or an illustration of a point of view.

Regards,
Scott

Marvelous.

Would you like to address the rest of my post? :cover:

Sincerely,
Sherlock

 

[Popeyesays]

Marvelous.

Would you like to address the rest of my post? :cover:

Sincerely,
Sherlock

Give me a hint as to what the rest of the post might be? This is already eight pages of posts.

If it refers to the notion that Joseph Smith was revealing anything that was not under the authority of Jesus Christ, Abraham, Moses or the other prophets of the old and new testament then please point out some.

Regards,
Scott

 

[yirme]

because i dont beleive two organisations with such radically differant beleifs can get on and your views are admirable but sadly utopian. thats my view yours is differant.

you seem to know nothing of islam and have clearly never read the quran, so how can you make such a claim and have such an opinion?
there is nothing radically different about their belief systems as it pertains to everyday life.
i do not see how muslims and mormons could not get along because they are so similar in values.
i guess some people prefer to divide and others prefer to unite.


peace