400 + Kids Taken From Texas FLDS Compound

[Mr Spinkles]

So, now what? If there is abuse, the state should present its case. Currently, I haven't seen any evidence that warrants the removal of 400+ children from their homes.

Little girls are pregnant. What more evidence do you need?

 

[cardero]

In addition to all of the bad things you all have mentioned, young men are victims as well. The elders in the community will often kick out the young men because they are seen as competition since the older men want younger and more numerous wives. They are kicked out with nothing - no education and very little knowledge of society outside of the compound. For anyone who is interested, here is a link to an organization that helps the "Lost Boys" and "Child Brides" of polygamist sects:

The "Lost Boys"

That may not be an addition but a tradition.

 

[jonny]

Little girls are pregnant. What more evidence do you need?

Using this logic, if a few out of 400+ kids in a neighborhood are pregnant, then the government has the authority to remove every child from the neighborhood, lock them up with their mothers, take away the right for their mother's to communicate with the outside world, and then try to place them into foster care.

I want evidence that every parent was unfit. Polygamy, in and of itself, doesn't make a parent unfit. That is what the state is arguing.

If you want to start taking children out of dangerous living situations, when are we going to remove all the children from Compton?

 

[texan1]

Jonny, I encourage you to read the other links posted in this thread as well as literature on FLDS and women who have escaped. These people are not choosing polygamy. Young women are forced into marriages and forced into sex and then having children as teenagers. So some of the children are parents themselves because they were raped by their "husbands". It is part of their culture; this is institutionalized abuse. (And some of these men have upwards of 20 wives who each have multiple children - how could he be a good parent in that situation?) The "prophet" Warren Jeffs (FLDS' leader and "voice of God" on Earth) lowered the age of marriage to 14 and is now in prison for being an accomplice to rape and continues to face charges related to rape, sexually assaulting children, and incest. This is their moral leader - does this not tell you anything?

It is a difficult situation when there are children involved and I am sure these people are scared and confused. They are also under some serious mind control which makes it difficult for authorities to get to the truth. But I feel like any pain caused now may be worth it in the end if it puts a stop to the horrific things that go on in these compounds. The fact that you seem to be so sympathetic to this group is a little disconcerting to me, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have not read much about them.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Using this logic, if a few out of 400+ kids in a neighborhood are pregnant, then the government has the authority to remove every child from the neighborhood, lock them up with their mothers, take away the right for their mother's to communicate with the outside world, and then try to place them into foster care.

I concede you're right, if a few pregnant little girls was the only thing we had to go on it would not warrant the removal of all the children in the town.

But you know as well as I do that this is no ordinary "neighborhood". It is more like one, huge family. Moreover, it is a group of brainwashed sex slaves being lorded over by a few elite men with totalitarian-like authority over their subjects in their own private city-state, away from the prying eyes of the laws we have to protect children (and adults). There is very good reason to suspect that every single child either had been or was at risk of being abused. What is more, it would be next to impossible to isolate individual cases of abuse because the abuse was so rampant, because the familial ties are so complex (who is the child of whom?), and because the women and children are too afraid to talk to investigators unless they are completely removed from their abusers.

All this is enough to warrant the actions the government has taken. Nevertheless, I agree with you that no child should be permanently removed from his/her parents unless proved beyond a reasonable doubt in court. That is why we have due process. I expect there will be trials for many individual cases, and I expect prosecutors will present the evidence in each case. This will no doubt include testimony from women/children who are no longer afraid to be "disobedient", the informant the government has had inside the compound for over one year, and former members.

In court documents released on Tuesday, child welfare officials allege that the site was rife with sexual abuse and that young girls were groomed to be "spiritually married" at puberty.

"There is a widespread pattern and practice of the YFZ Ranch in which young, minor female residents are conditioned to accept and expect sexual activity with adult men at the ranch upon being spiritually married to them," investigator Lynn McFadden wrote.

The cycle is continued when boys on the ranch reach adulthood and are "spiritually married" to young girls, "resulting in them being sexual perpetrators", she added.
Children were also deprived of food, locked in cupboards and physically beaten as punishment for breaking rules, investigators claim.

'Broken ribs'

According to the court papers, the 16-year-old girl who made the calls that triggered the raid said she had been sexually assaulted by her husband, who would also beat her "whenever he got angry".

The girl told investigators she had been married to her 49-year-old husband at age 15 and had already had one child. Eight months later, she was pregnant again, she said.
She recounted how her husband had choked her and hit her, on one occasion breaking several ribs. Other women in the house would hold her baby while he beat her, she said.
"She reported that church members have told her if she leaves the ranch, outsiders will hurt her, force her to cut her hair, to wear make-up and clothes and to have sex with lots of men," Ms McFadden wrote.

BBC NEWS | Americas | Texan sect girls 'in abuse cycle'

I want evidence that every parent was unfit. Polygamy, in and of itself, doesn't make a parent unfit. That is what the state is arguing.

That's what the state is arguing, really? That polygamy in and of itself makes a parent unfit? Can you cite this please?

If you want to start taking children out of dangerous living situations, when are we going to remove all the children from Compton?

I think this was not merely about taking children out of dangerous living situations. This was about protecting witnesses in a case against an organized crime-ring of sexual abusers.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Also, jonny you seem to be suggesting that there are so many men in this compound that a great number of them must have committed no crimes whatsoever. But if each father has on average three wives, and if each wife has on average three children, so that each father has approximately ten children (a modest estimate, I imagine), we are talking about a group of only 40 men. I would imagine there are fewer of them than that, though this is just speculation on my part....either way, quite a different situation than in merely high crime areas like Compton, I think.

 

[zippythepinhead]

Update from the Deseret News via the Drudge Report:

Deseret News | First look inside YFZ Ranch

 

[jonny]

All this is enough to warrant the actions the government has taken. Nevertheless, I agree with you that no child should be permanently removed from his/her parents unless proved beyond a reasonable doubt in court. That is why we have due process. I expect there will be trials for many individual cases, and I expect prosecutors will present the evidence in each case. This will no doubt include testimony from women/children who are no longer afraid to be "disobedient", the informant the government has had inside the compound for over one year, and former members.

And due process is all that I'm arguing for. If due process allows the removal of all the children from a community based on an unsubstantiated claim, then due process has a different meaning than I thought.

If these children were being abused, the last thing that we want is knee-jerk reactions from the government harming the case. On the other hand, the Utah Attorney General argues that the reason that the TX compound exists is because of methodical prosecutions that have been happening in Utah, so maybe quick and dirty is the only way to fix this problem at this point. I guess we'll find out on Thursday.

That's what the state is arguing, really? That polygamy in and of itself makes a parent unfit? Can you cite this please?

Since the state is not looking at specific parents and cases, I don't see how anyone could draw any other conclusion.

I think this was not merely about taking children out of dangerous living situations. This was about protecting witnesses in a case against an organized crime-ring of sexual abusers.

Well, let's hope that the state is able to provide better protection from abuse in the foster care system than the parents would have been able to provide in their homes with some rehabilitation. I'm crossing my fingers that these kids will end up in the best possible situation.

 

[jonny]

Also, jonny you seem to be suggesting that there are so many men in this compound that a great number of them must have committed no crimes whatsoever. But if each father has on average three wives, and if each wife has on average three children, so that each father has approximately ten children (a modest estimate, I imagine), we are talking about a group of only 40 men. I would imagine there are fewer of them than that, though this is just speculation on my part....either way, quite a different situation than in merely high crime areas like Compton, I think.

It would be interesting to compare the statistics of how many children with how many mothers men in a high-crime area like Compton have with the polygamists. My guess is that there would probably be a lot less children per father, but the number of mothers or sexual partners per father might actually be comparable. I'd also be curious to see the statistics on abuse in a place like Compton and compare those statistics to the FLDS compound. Finally, the next statistics I'd be curious about is the percentage of boys from the FLDS compound who grow up to become sexual predators and the percentage of boys from Compton who grow up to join gangs.

Maybe Texas is onto something here. If you remove kids from problem communities, maybe the community will eventually (1) die out or (2) reform.

Where are you getting your averages and statistics from?

 

[jonny]

The fact that you seem to be so sympathetic to this group is a little disconcerting to me, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have not read much about them.

Perhaps if you had a family history that includes Bible-bashing bigots using the government to persecute your ancestors for religious traditions that they didn't like, then maybe you'd question the motivation behind the government in situations like this. If you do have this background, then shame on you for thinking that the government is any different now than it was then.

I blame this child abuse partially on the government's persecution of their lifestyle for the past 150+ years. I don't see the government as the solution. I see it as part of the problem.

I think the abuse is disgusting. I'm glad that Warren Jeffs is in prison. I want the other men and women who are abusing children to be thrown into prison also. But this isn't going to solve the cultural problem and until you solve these problems, you're not going to stop the abuse.

 

[.lava]

I blame this child abuse partially on the government's persecution of their lifestyle for the past 150+ years. I don't see the government as the solution. I see it as part of the problem.

hi,

when you have time would you please explain that? how is the government part of problem? do they know this stuff and let it happen?

 

[jonny]

Perhaps if you had a family history that includes Bible-bashing bigots using the government to persecute your ancestors for religious traditions that they didn't like, then maybe you'd question the motivation behind the government in situations like this. If you do have this background, then shame on you for thinking that the government is any different now than it was then.

I blame this child abuse partially on the government's persecution of their lifestyle for the past 150+ years. I don't see the government as the solution. I see it as part of the problem.

I think the abuse is disgusting. I'm glad that Warren Jeffs is in prison. I want the other men and women who are abusing children to be thrown into prison also. But this isn't going to solve the cultural problem and until you solve these problems, you're not going to stop the abuse.

I may be in the minority, but I'm not alone in these feelings:

Some Mormons, especially those with polygamist ancestors, feel conflicted as they watch Texas authorities separate FLDS families on the basis of alleged abuse.

They don't support the practice of polygamy today, yet these Latter-day Saints see the faces of their great-grandparents in the FLDS women and children.

They hear echoes of 19th-century salacious - and false - rumors about their Mormon forefathers seducing women and having sex on temple altars. And they worry about government officials having power to decide what's best for children.

Mormons feel torn over FLDS raid - Salt Lake Tribune

I think that article pretty accurately describes how I feel about this: "conflicted." On the one hand, I see the abuse and want it stopped. On the other, I see how these people are being treated by the media and see the correlation between that and what happened to my ancestors.

 

[jonny]

hi,

when you have time would you please explain that? how is the government part of problem? do they know this stuff and let it happen?

I don't have time right now, but I'll answer your question tonight.

 

[texan1]

I think that article pretty accurately describes how I feel about this: "conflicted."

That's understandable. I feel strongly that the way of life at these FLDS sects is wrong and it needs to change, but it has to be traumatizing for these kids to be taken from their mothers, especially since they don't really understand what is going on. There is no easy answer.

 

[Sunstone]

Moreover, it is a group of brainwashed sex slaves being lorded over by a few elite men with totalitarian-like authority over their subjects in their own private city-state, away from the prying eyes of the laws we have to protect children (and adults).

Sure, but you make it sound like that's a bad thing.

 

[Magic Man]

Sure, but you make it sound like that's a bad thing.

Really? It sounded pretty good to me.

 

[mrscardero]

I blame this child abuse partially on the government's persecution of their lifestyle for the past 150+ years. I don't see the government as the solution. I see it as part of the problem.

Second Manifesto in 1904. This pointed out that the Church, itself, had not sanctioned the new marriages (technically correct) and that the punishment for further practice would be excommunication. This was sustained and supported by all twelve apostles and by the Church. This stood as doctrine. The Lord had ended polygamy.

I don't see where the government had anything to do with excommunicating those who choose to continue polygamy. I see the government solving problems to aid in those who have no say or cannot make choices on their own due to being raised with the beliefe that the girls (women) should be married to one man and bare his children. It's the opposite of a bee hive. Instead of the queen, you have a king.

Take a child who was removed from a drug addicted mother and placed with a loving family. Would it be wise to remove that child from that loving family because the drug addicted mother had straightened herself out? Does that mean that the government was causing problems instead of saving a life?

I think the abuse is disgusting. I'm glad that Warren Jeffs is in prison. I want the other men and women who are abusing children to be thrown into prison also. But this isn't going to solve the cultural problem and until you solve these problems, you're not going to stop the abuse.

That's the answer. It's the culture not the government.
You want to end the abuse, end the culture.
If it didn't end with the Second Manifesto,
maybe the government can help.

 

[zippythepinhead]

I may be in the minority, but I'm not alone in these feelings:

Mormons feel torn over FLDS raid - Salt Lake Tribune

I think that article pretty accurately describes how I feel about this: "conflicted." On the one hand, I see the abuse and want it stopped. On the other, I see how these people are being treated by the media and see the correlation between that and what happened to my ancestors.

I was listening to a Texas Ranger on the radio. He stated "Don't mess with the children of Texas". This isn't going to be over at the minimum for a few weeks.

FLDS culture is so secretive that you literally have to peel the onion skin off to find out what is really going on. Are there innocent victims here? Yes. But sometimes the whole class has to "stay after school" to find out who the perpetrators of crime, if any, is occurring. Texas also better study the Utah-Arizona Short Creek raid of the 1950s or they are in for a mess bigger than Texas.

 

[jonny]

hi,

when you have time would you please explain that? how is the government part of problem? do they know this stuff and let it happen?

The reason I believe that the government is partially to blame in this mess is because the government has outlawed a religious tenant (polygamy) which, in and of itself, isn't harmful. If the relationships are between consenting adults who have chosen this lifestyle, then who cares.

Because, in the past, the government has gone after the lifestyle, these people have taken "refuge" in the desert, away from the view of society. This seclusion has enabled them to foster a culture where child brides and abuse become acceptable and the norm.

The reason why I disagree with the actions of Texas is because it will reinforce the need for them to hide from society instead of encourage them to come and join society.

Sorry if this isn't as eloquent as I'd like. I'm not feeling well and don't feel like thinking very hard. Hopefully you get the point.

 

[jonny]

I'm curious about what people feel about the method by which the women and children were removed. I'm seeing pictures on the news now of something that looks like a tank, snipers hiding behind rocks, and SWAT teams with guns going into homes. One of the mothers said that her children had never seen a gun until they government came into their home and removed them from the home at gunpoint.

Overkill or lessons learned from Waco?