Captain Civic
version 2.0
What do you think a person needs to believe to be a Christian? Is there limits to certain interpretations of the Bible?
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Christians: Where do you draw the line?
- Thread starter Captain Civic
- Start date
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
A Christian to me is someone who at least believes in the Christian confessions - that Jesus as the incarnate Creator God (therefore the Trinity) died for our sins and resurrected on the third day and will come again in glory. Everything else is gravy.
John 3-16 says it all.
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
What angellous_evangellous said. Yes there limits to certain interpretations. Symbolic language should not be taken literally.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
I'll preface my remarks with scripture, if I may:
The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in yourheart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:8b - 13
One of the major issues in Romans is the question: How can a Greek, who does not follow the Law of Moses and who does not bear the marks of circumcision possibly be part of the family of God? Paul's answer is that God welcomes into his family anyone who has faith in Jesus, whether that person is a Jew or a Gentile. This particular passage makes the point that all who confess Jesus is Lord and believes that God raised Jesus from the dead will be saved. "Jesus is Lord" does not mean "Jesus is the second person of a divine trinity." Here "Lord" does not necessarily mean "God incarnate." Rather it connotes "master." To be saved, then, one must submit to Jesus as master.
Of course, the implication of this is that Jesus must be God for God is ultimately our only master. My point is that to be a Christian in good standing, you need not understand or believe this implication. Rather, you must follow Jesus' commandment to love your neighbour as Jesus has loved us. That's the meat. The rest, such as theological notions as the Trinity, is the gravy.
The second point Paul makes is that the believer must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. Indeed, that's the basis upon which God Himself has indicated that Jesus is his true son rather than yet another failed Messianic pretender. Thus it is also the basis upon which a person is to put their trust in Jesus. Christians put their faith in Jesus because God has demonstrated to the world that Jesus is his son by raising him from the dead. (Romans 1:3 - 4.)
Therefore, to be included in God's family, one must do only two things:
(1) Submit to the Lordship of Jesus; and
(2) Believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.
No matter what else that person believes, even if it's kooky or contrary to some of the Creeds, we as believers must treat that person as a brother or sister (even if that brother or sister requires some guidance or education). There is a wafer-thin theological commitment involved here. And to burden people with more at the outset is, in my view, counterproductive (and may stand in the way of a person's salvation).
The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in yourheart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:8b - 13
One of the major issues in Romans is the question: How can a Greek, who does not follow the Law of Moses and who does not bear the marks of circumcision possibly be part of the family of God? Paul's answer is that God welcomes into his family anyone who has faith in Jesus, whether that person is a Jew or a Gentile. This particular passage makes the point that all who confess Jesus is Lord and believes that God raised Jesus from the dead will be saved. "Jesus is Lord" does not mean "Jesus is the second person of a divine trinity." Here "Lord" does not necessarily mean "God incarnate." Rather it connotes "master." To be saved, then, one must submit to Jesus as master.
Of course, the implication of this is that Jesus must be God for God is ultimately our only master. My point is that to be a Christian in good standing, you need not understand or believe this implication. Rather, you must follow Jesus' commandment to love your neighbour as Jesus has loved us. That's the meat. The rest, such as theological notions as the Trinity, is the gravy.
The second point Paul makes is that the believer must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. Indeed, that's the basis upon which God Himself has indicated that Jesus is his true son rather than yet another failed Messianic pretender. Thus it is also the basis upon which a person is to put their trust in Jesus. Christians put their faith in Jesus because God has demonstrated to the world that Jesus is his son by raising him from the dead. (Romans 1:3 - 4.)
Therefore, to be included in God's family, one must do only two things:
(1) Submit to the Lordship of Jesus; and
(2) Believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.
No matter what else that person believes, even if it's kooky or contrary to some of the Creeds, we as believers must treat that person as a brother or sister (even if that brother or sister requires some guidance or education). There is a wafer-thin theological commitment involved here. And to burden people with more at the outset is, in my view, counterproductive (and may stand in the way of a person's salvation).
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Which Bible? The one that was in use before the Protestants omitted what had been there for centuries or the one in which they removed what God had never intended to be there?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
If you want to get really technical, the Bible says that Jesus had the ability to raise himself from the dead. He didn't need to rely on His Father to do that.
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
Which Bible? The one that was in use before the Protestants omitted what had been there for centuries or the one in which they removed what God had never intended to be there?
the deutero canocical books was added by the catholics. it was not suppose to be there. i am referring to the original bible with the new and old testaments. the closer it is tranlated from the original greek bible the better.
thank you for asking, and thank God for the opportunity.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, just to make it perfectly clear, I personally use the KJV. On the other hand, I'm not sure why you say the Apocrypha is "not supposed to be there." Who decided that, and based on what criteria?
Ratiocinative
Member
For whatever reason, people seem to downplay the level of commitment required to be a true Christian. Perhaps it is because the predominantly Christian societies are all democratic, so very few Christians have to risk anything to call themselves Christians. In some countries, though, people are not so care-free about calling themselves Christians. In those countries people have to be prepared for the fact that they might be killed if they pronounce faith in Christ. Christ said in Luke 9:62, anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God. Just because us Christians who live in democratic societies are rarely forced to choose between having faith in Christ, doesn't mean that we aren't still called to be willing to make that choice.
Anyway, to the topic. Faith in Christ is the only thing that is need, but questions arise, such as what is faith? Or, especially when talking to Mormons, who is Christ? So I tried to be as specific as possible so there wouldn't be any loopholes. Off the top of my head I can't think of any situation that someone who fits all 5 of these things could be unsaved, but perhaps there could be a loophole somewhere. But anyway, these are the five things that I would say are absolute, core, fundamental requirements for being a Christian:
- You must believe that there is only one God.
- You must believe that forgiveness of sins is only possible because Jesus, who is God incarnate, died on the cross.
- You must believe that faith in Christ alone is how we obtain said forgiveness, and not through our own actions.
- You must be willing to do what God says even if you don't understand the reason why at the time.
- Your faith in Christ must be more valuable to you than your own life.
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
Good Question sir,
1.We simply look a the original greek translations, it will show what the original books were.
2. Research WHEN the new books were added ... and everyting else will fall into place.
Smoke
Done here.
Katzpur is a woman.
If you're looking at the original Greek (the Septuagint), you'll find the "Apocrypha."
The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals have been in Christian Bibles as long as there have been Christian Bibles. The Catholics didn't "add" them at the Council of Trent; they merely affirmed their canonicity in reaction to (some) Protestants' having taken them out.
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
ic, my apologies to Katzpur.
Mr/Ms MidightBlue
I strongly recommend that you check the information that you have. it will be much better and enlightning than me providing them to you. what if i am telling you the truth? you will not lose anything by investigating further.
Thank you for your inputs!
to God be the glory!!!
Captain Civic
version 2.0
OK, most Christians from different denominations seem to be pretty aligned in agreement about that.
What if, though, I were to toss out Hitler? From what I've learned of him, he believed in Jesus and that He was the forgiver of sins, etc. but he committed unspeakable atrocities to the Jewish nation. Does that make him Christian?
What if, though, I were to toss out Hitler? From what I've learned of him, he believed in Jesus and that He was the forgiver of sins, etc. but he committed unspeakable atrocities to the Jewish nation. Does that make him Christian?
Starfish
Please no sarcasm
Hitler put on a facade of Christian morality to win over the people. Christianity is more than what you profess. Your actions count.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
That's part of the point I was making. Hitler may have had right theological beliefs, but his behavior ran contrary to Jesus' intentions. In other words, he didn't confess Jesus as Lord. To confess with your mouth but not move the body in accord with your confession makes your confession false. You're a hypocrite. (What point would there be of saying you must confess something but also hold that your life could deny it?) So I'd have no trouble saying that Hitler -- his protestations to the contrary notwithstanding -- was not a Christian.
In response to Ratiocinative's list:
As for 2 and 3, these involve an awful lot of theological reflection, and the cases of conversion in the New Testament don't include it. For the most part, they believe that Jesus is Lord or the son of God, or whatever, put their faith in him (because of the resurrection) and that's it. Done. Saved. Free. Very little theology, certainly no soteriology. And certainly no soteriology that says that Jesus is the only way to be saved. By and large, they only believe that God provided him as a way. Of course, they were unaware of any other way, so perhaps they thought there wasn't any other way. But of course, we don't know that because we're only told what we're told, which isn't much.
As for 4, there can be good faith disagreements about what is canonical, how to understand Jesus' life and intentions for his people, and so forth. So at times "what God says" is not clear. Thus we must be intimately part of a Christian community that is connected with the traditions of the church and fully engages their reasoning faculties. God is not after robots. He's after loving communities.
As for 5, how can anyone be responsible for making their faith this vigorous? How can anyone know how they will act at the crucial time until it comes? Right now, many Christians in more comfortable circumstances might not be able to say with confidence that they wouldn't deny Jesus in the face of torture. One hopes that God will give them the strength at the time. But honestly, to make this a minimal requirement for being a Christian would be asinine. Couldn't a truly faithful and fully qualified Christian start with just a little bit of faith, experience some persecution, backslide, and then be restored? If so, why not a Christian whose faith temporarily does not survive a torture session?
Remember, we're talking about where the minimal requirements are to be considered a Christian. It may sound pious to "raise the bar" but I fear that some of us raise the bar higher than God does.
In response to Ratiocinative's list:
- You must believe that there is only one God.
- You must believe that forgiveness of sins is only possible because Jesus, who is God incarnate, died on the cross.
- You must believe that faith in Christ alone is how we obtain said forgiveness, and not through our own actions.
- You must be willing to do what God says even if you don't understand the reason why at the time.
- Your faith in Christ must be more valuable to you than your own life.
As for 2 and 3, these involve an awful lot of theological reflection, and the cases of conversion in the New Testament don't include it. For the most part, they believe that Jesus is Lord or the son of God, or whatever, put their faith in him (because of the resurrection) and that's it. Done. Saved. Free. Very little theology, certainly no soteriology. And certainly no soteriology that says that Jesus is the only way to be saved. By and large, they only believe that God provided him as a way. Of course, they were unaware of any other way, so perhaps they thought there wasn't any other way. But of course, we don't know that because we're only told what we're told, which isn't much.
As for 4, there can be good faith disagreements about what is canonical, how to understand Jesus' life and intentions for his people, and so forth. So at times "what God says" is not clear. Thus we must be intimately part of a Christian community that is connected with the traditions of the church and fully engages their reasoning faculties. God is not after robots. He's after loving communities.
As for 5, how can anyone be responsible for making their faith this vigorous? How can anyone know how they will act at the crucial time until it comes? Right now, many Christians in more comfortable circumstances might not be able to say with confidence that they wouldn't deny Jesus in the face of torture. One hopes that God will give them the strength at the time. But honestly, to make this a minimal requirement for being a Christian would be asinine. Couldn't a truly faithful and fully qualified Christian start with just a little bit of faith, experience some persecution, backslide, and then be restored? If so, why not a Christian whose faith temporarily does not survive a torture session?
Remember, we're talking about where the minimal requirements are to be considered a Christian. It may sound pious to "raise the bar" but I fear that some of us raise the bar higher than God does.
rheff78
I'm your huckleberry.
Just like with any relligions, they have their bad eggs. Christians have them, Judasim, Islam. The whole of the part can't be judged by individual pieces.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
And with respect to items # 1 and #3, I imagine that the following would also apply:
1. You must believe that Jesus Christ (who is God) was His own Father and that His Father (who is God) was His own Son, and that God is both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time and that Jesus prayed to Himself and that the Father answered His own prayers.
3. You must believe Jesus didn't really mean what He said when that it is those who keep His commandments who will abide in His love, or that He is the author of salvation of those who obey Him, or that it is those who do the will of His Father who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
And to top it all off, you must apparently believe that when Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again," He wasn't talking to you. After all, if you've passed the five "absolute, core, fundamental requirements for being a Christian," He'll overlook something as trivial as you thinking you have a right to play God.