Why ‘us vs them’?

[CG Didymus]

People will always choose their own beliefs but key is we will hopefully accept our oneness and reach a level of maturity where we are able to settle our disputes through consultation instead of confrontation. Whether in the future people choose one religion or ten religions the main thing is that they treat each other with respect and as equal fellow humans no matter what they believe.

What the future world will look like nobody knows. All we believe is that people will tire of wars and want peace. The one thing humanity has not tried is peace and once they do try it I believe nobody will want to return ever to wars again.

Baha’u’llah’s teachings and laws are an attempt to free the world of prejudices. Over time people can observe for themselves whether they work or not.

The laws are still laws, and to be effective, must be enforced. Baha'i laws still have a penalty for murderers, arsons and thieves. Prison or death for murderers and arson, and a tattoo and banishment for the third offence for a thief. Who will be the judges and who will be the enforcers?

But then Baha'is have moral laws and laws against drugs and alcohol. How will those be enforced? Will people stop "fooling" around? Will people stop going to prostitutes? Will people stop using drugs and stop drinking? And then there is always... What will be the laws concerning homosexuality? Is this future spiritual society going to allow these things to continue, or expect these things to be stopped and those who involved in these things punished?

Then what do you do with religious "radicals"? Like "true" believers in a religion that doesn't believe in the Baha'i Faith? Will they be tolerated? Even if they cause trouble? And what about those that believe in Baha'u'llah but don't believe in the leadership of the Baha'i Faith, the covenant-breakers. Where is their place in society when they have already been shunned by the Baha'i Faith?

Anyway, if all the people aren't all on board with the rules and moral laws, and if they don't believe that Baha'u'llah is a true prophet, then there is going to be problems. For the good of all the "good" people, those that believe in the "oneness" of God, religion and humanity, what is going to be done to control those other people? Those that drink, smoke pot, fool around, and that have gay sex or have other "vices"? No other religion has been able to put a stop to "sinning".

 

[danieldemol]

@loverofhumanity
My introduction to the Baha'i Faith was very much like you described in your post preceeding the one I have quoted here. My understanding is that it was not a faith intent on growing, but its tenents of oneness and unity expected, in time, to seep into other faiths until all were on the same path.
In example, the JWs, also, believe in a world to come of one faith, and one world government, as does Judaism (and Christianity, although I'm not sure about Islam) However JWs believe in proselytizing as only their members will qualify for citizenship in this new world. Judaism does not believe in drawing in converts for they believe all are eligible to be chosen based upon their readiness. So, per this quoted piece, where do Baha'is stand on the qualifications required for acceptance in this new world? Baha'is only, or any faith follower who lives the will of God, however God is envisioned?

I find it troubling that certain people appear to prefer to defer the powers of independent investigation to marketeers over simply reading the primary texts for themselves.

How often have you known sales people to be honest about their product?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The laws are still laws, and to be effective, must be enforced. Baha'i laws still have a penalty for murderers, arsons and thieves. Prison or death for murderers and arson, and a tattoo and banishment for the third offence for a thief. Who will be the judges and who will be the enforcers?

But then Baha'is have moral laws and laws against drugs and alcohol. How will those be enforced? Will people stop "fooling" around? Will people stop going to prostitutes? Will people stop using drugs and stop drinking? And then there is always... What will be the laws concerning homosexuality? Is this future spiritual society going to allow these things to continue, or expect these things to be stopped and those who involved in these things punished?

Then what do you do with religious "radicals"? Like "true" believers in a religion that doesn't believe in the Baha'i Faith? Will they be tolerated? Even if they cause trouble? And what about those that believe in Baha'u'llah but don't believe in the leadership of the Baha'i Faith, the covenant-breakers. Where is their place in society when they have already been shunned by the Baha'i Faith?

Anyway, if all the people aren't all on board with the rules and moral laws, and if they don't believe that Baha'u'llah is a true prophet, then there is going to be problems. For the good of all the "good" people, those that believe in the "oneness" of God, religion and humanity, what is going to be done to control those other people? Those that drink, smoke pot, fool around, and that have gay sex or have other "vices"? No other religion has been able to put a stop to "sinning".

We don’t know how people of the future will be and just how mature and spiritual they will grow and develop. But Baha’u’llah envisions a vastly morally improved humanity in this verse in reference to the future.

'My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith.

For instance [in the future] should a woman..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...' Then Bahá’u’lláh affirmed, 'Through the power of God I shall transform the peoples of the world into this exalted state and shall open this most great door to the face of all humanity.' "
Bahá’u’lláh, Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, v2., p. 141

 

[Spice]

I find it troubling that certain people appear to prefer to defer the powers of independent investigation to marketeers over simply reading the primary texts for themselves.

How often have you known sales people to be honest about their product?

Because results are more believable.
Nothing being "sold" here.

 

[danieldemol]

We don’t know how people of the future will be and just how mature and spiritual they will grow and develop. But Baha’u’llah envisions a vastly morally improved humanity in this verse in reference to the future.

'My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith.

For instance [in the future] should a woman..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...' Then Bahá’u’lláh affirmed, 'Through the power of God I shall transform the peoples of the world into this exalted state and shall open this most great door to the face of all humanity.' "
Bahá’u’lláh, Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, v2., p. 141

One has to wonder what the value of claiming to establish a state where no one would glance treacherously at women would be without giving us the means of getting there.

I would have expected an All-knowing All-Powerful God to have given us the means, instead all we have is a list of don't dos we have had around since the time of Jesus if not even earlier which haven't prevented certain men from glancing trecherously.

 

[danieldemol]

Because results are more believable.
Nothing being "sold" here.

So you deny that Baha'is are trying to sell their faith?! Seriously?! Well it's your credibility on the line to blow as you wish I suppose.

 

[Spice]

So you deny that Baha'is are trying to sell their faith?! Seriously?! Well it's your credibility on the line to blow as you wish I suppose.

They convey a dream that all Abrahamic followers have, as I referred to in my questioning of @loverofhumanity. Now I have a clearer understanding of their expectations in that realization. It is based not only on faith in God, but faith in humankind. That sounds like a beautiful partnership to believe in.

I believe my credibility will stand firmly where it matters. The RF members I've encountered of the Baha'i Faith have presented themselves honorably. I wish all members were as pleasant to converse with.

Namaste
The best part about being authentic is that there is no image to maintain. You will delight some and disturb others, and none of it will concern the truth of your being.

 

[danieldemol]

Oh well, whilst some are intent on believing their dreams the true independent investigators (ie critical thinkers) are able to recognise that people selling theocracies like any salesperson worth their salt, will promise you the world for the chance to continue to indoctrinate people with their true beliefs in my view.

The belief that Baha'u'llah is *the* Manifestation of God for this age will only mean that any errors of perception caused by marketeers will be corrected in the future as people come to investigate for themselves what Baha'u'llah actually teaches in my view, so it is little skin of the nose of marketeers to lie and deny as a temporary deflection.

Meanwhile here are some of the opening lines of the Kitab I Aqdas which Baha'u'llah described as his "most holy book"

'The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other."

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 19-34

I added the bold highlights myself for the critical thinker so the point of what Baha'u'llah is saying doesn't get lost in the rambling.

So what are the twin duties?
Recognition of Baha'u'llah as dayspring of revelation and Fountain of laws as number one, and obedience to those laws as the other in my view.

And can we call a person who follows for example Baha'i law where it contradicts Jewish law a member of the Jewish faith or a member of the Baha'i faith?
A member of the Baha'i faith in my view.

And will it be accepted of him in Baha'u'llah's version of the afterlife if he fails to do either of these?
"Neither is acceptable without the other" as i understand it.

 

[CG Didymus]

We don’t know how people of the future will be and just how mature and spiritual they will grow and develop. But Baha’u’llah envisions a vastly morally improved humanity in this verse in reference to the future.

'My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith.

For instance [in the future] should a woman..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...' Then Bahá’u’lláh affirmed, 'Through the power of God I shall transform the peoples of the world into this exalted state and shall open this most great door to the face of all humanity.' "
Bahá’u’lláh, Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, v2., p. 141

A couple of things... If God is going to make a world where people are more spiritual, why did he have the people of the past go through all the misery of so many evil and greedy people having the power to do their evil deeds? Their capacity for being spiritual and do good was obviously very low. Why was that? What did God expect from them? That they'd realize that their evil ways weren't right?

And then... if people are going to be so "saintly" and spiritual, why the moral laws?