When's the last time that a debate changed your mind about a religious belief?

[amorphous_constellation]

So I guess I'm just kind of curious, if you'd like to share something here. I noticed that it's not all too often that people actually change their minds at the end of long forum debates that one reads. Especially those who have built gigantic fortresses around their beliefs, but one thing about the internet that I've noticed is that no one ever concedes points. Reading a conversation like that across the internet is rarer than finding gold, this goes far beyond theology.

And there are those who change beliefs quite often, mind you I'm not quite as interested in those cases in relation to this thread. I'm more interested in the cases where there once was total stability, and in the process of ideas being exchanged, orbits were completely shifted. Maybe there's even a thread here you can link to show this happening. The point in which someone started believing in free-will, or became an atheist or Christian, or became a protestant or agnostic. However, before that, they had been one thing for a long time. And then there was, in a short little space of time and discussion, some grand culmination of ideas that struck upon them a new total sense of reason. How often does that really happen?

 

[Desert Snake]

never

 

[amorphous_constellation]

never

Were you ever influenced by debates in making up your mind in the first place?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So I guess I'm just kind of curious, if you'd like to share something here. I noticed that it's not all too often that people actually change their minds at the end of long forum debates that one reads. Especially those who have built gigantic fortresses around their beliefs, but one thing about the internet that I've noticed is that no one ever concedes points. Reading a conversation like that across the internet is rarer than finding gold, this goes far beyond theology.

And there are those who change beliefs quite often, mind you I'm not quite as interested in those cases in relation to this thread. I'm more interested in the cases where there once was total stability, and in the process of ideas being exchanged, orbits were completely shifted. Maybe there's even a thread here you can link to show this happening. The point in which someone started believing in free-will, or became an atheist or Christian, or became a protestant or agnostic. However, before that, they had been one thing for a long time. And then there was, in a short little space of time and discussion, some grand culmination of ideas that struck upon them a new total sense of reason. How often does that really happen?

Actually, no. Closest I come to that is my perspective in how my perspecive change from being a hard core atheist to believing in personifications (deities)that represented different aspects of the Buddha. I don't know if, because they are personifications, if I'm still an atheist or not. That doesn't really matter. I got a stronger concpet of what I used to know of Christianity four years ago; that strengthen my faith as a Buddhist and focus in practice as a pagan. Other than that, no. My belief has not drastically change. I have always been a Buddhist; I just like how people can bring it out of me in these forums sometimes.

Nam.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Being split 50/50 on the whole thing, think i must change my mind a dozen times a day.
Is one guy on youtube his discussions influence my thoughts quite a lot, he very good at describing reality.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Being split 50/50 on the whole thing, think i must change my mind a dozen times a day.
Is one guy on youtube his discussions influence my thoughts quite a lot, he very good at describing reality.

Pretty interesting how it is now, the internet has created a new tv by which people, instead of selecting from a narrow band of channels to occasionally find good programs at certain times, are instead tuning in to other people simply talking about ideas they have.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Actually, no. Closest I come to that is my perspective in how my perspecive change from being a hard core atheist to believing in personifications (deities)that represented different aspects of the Buddha. I don't know if, because they are personifications, if I'm still an atheist or not. That doesn't really matter. I got a stronger concpet of what I used to know of Christianity four years ago; that strengthen my faith as a Buddhist and focus in practice as a pagan. Other than that, no. My belief has not drastically change. I have always been a Buddhist; I just like how people can bring it out of me in these forums sometimes.

Nam.

They brought the Buddhism out of you? Would the term 'archetypes' work as well, rather than 'personification?'

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Were you ever influenced by debates in making up your mind in the first place?

Constantly. I've looked into aspects of topics I never would have because of this site, realized assumptions I was making that I had not thought of as such, realized assumptions I wasn't aware of at all (such as that I expect other non-believers to consistently display the kind of rationality and reasoning I am used to and had, apparently, erroneously determined was somehow atypical of the religious at least relative to the non-religious), and challenged me to defend positions I do not hold.

But it is a little easier, I suspect, to find one's beliefs change when one's position is rather fundamentally that of uncertainty. All that changes is the degree of certainty.

 

[Riverwolf]

So I guess I'm just kind of curious, if you'd like to share something here. I noticed that it's not all too often that people actually change their minds at the end of long forum debates that one reads. Especially those who have built gigantic fortresses around their beliefs, but one thing about the internet that I've noticed is that no one ever concedes points. Reading a conversation like that across the internet is rarer than finding gold, this goes far beyond theology.

And there are those who change beliefs quite often, mind you I'm not quite as interested in those cases in relation to this thread. I'm more interested in the cases where there once was total stability, and in the process of ideas being exchanged, orbits were completely shifted. Maybe there's even a thread here you can link to show this happening. The point in which someone started believing in free-will, or became an atheist or Christian, or became a protestant or agnostic. However, before that, they had been one thing for a long time. And then there was, in a short little space of time and discussion, some grand culmination of ideas that struck upon them a new total sense of reason. How often does that really happen?

I've changed my mind in the past due to debates on these forums. It might not always be apparent in the threads themselves, but it can happen upon reflection.

That doesn't necessarily involve me changing my religion, but it can involve me learning new things.

 

[Kapalika]

TL;DR Beliefs change a little at a time, rarely all at once. This is because emotionally its too hard for people to admit that they wasted years on something that isn't true. It's hard for people to admit that and let it go.

...

I think it's rare for someone to change their belief system fundamentally after a single debate. It's usually on accepting what is perceived as more obvious truths that will ultimately lead to a point to where one changes their religion.

People have this false idea that religions are static, unchanging things with no wiggle room in-between, or at least people act like that. But that is more of a label kind of deal. In reality belief exists on a spectrum and most people don't like to budge on the spectrum despite any good arguments or evidence or reason. This is pretty much the definition of close-minded, which most of the world is.

For me personally, I've only had serious fundamental truths of my beliefs be changed when I had heard all my own reasoning be explicitly refuted. The first instance I can recall drastically changing my belief once already set in a specific opinion was actually done by educating myself. Ironically, I was trying to defend my interpretation of a certain religion to adherents of a different denomination. In my attempt to 'prove' my interpretation, by doing real, unbiased research, I abandoned the religion (eventually) once I found out how stupid both of our beliefs were. But it was a slow process over a few years.

As far as online, I have had points here and there changed when I've been refuted and shown why my reasoning was flawed. The process online was much faster as I had other people who could actually challenge me and it only took me a year or so of debating online to completely leave theism. It was more like the idea was chipped away, one point or idea at a time. Anytime I thought of "well what about this?!" And tried to debate it, it also crumbled away as I suddenly came to realize that all my beliefs were based on ignorance and misunderstanding. For the longest time I took solace in the idea that at least I had personal experience of supernatural origin that may not be self-induced hallucination, and there are people researching the paranormal. It was only when I took a much harder look at this paranormal "research" and educated myself more on how science works that I realized how wobbly my last legs were, so to speak. And the rest fell like a house of cards.

I forget the name of the phenomena, but there is this idea that when people put a lot of money into something, they are more likely to percieve it as a good product because otherwise it makes them feel bad that they made a terrible purchase. It's the same thing when people say "we have lost too much to quit now". Mentally, the emotion is the resources spent on belief. To give up a religion or deeply held conviction is to rip out a part of someone and leave a gaping wound. The mind can't handle a shock like that so quickly without a lot of pain.

It just isn't easy, emotionally, for people to admit that they are wrong, that they wasted years on something, and to just let go.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They brought the Buddhism out of you? Would the term 'archetypes' work as well, rather than 'personification?'

Aah. Had to look up the def. of both. Archetype is better since The Buddha and the Bodhsattvas are real people

EDIT Yeah. I usually dont talk about my faith from my perspective but from an objective one unless I am describing my faith instead of conversing in dialogue. You know how some christians would use scripture references for conversations that didnt need it? I always found that odd, and now I kinda see why they do it.

 

[psychoslice]

never.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

But it is a little easier, I suspect, to find one's beliefs change when one's position is rather fundamentally that of uncertainty. All that changes is the degree of certainty.

If certainty is typically more certain than uncertainty. That is what I suspect as well.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Pretty interesting how it is now, the internet has created a new tv by which people, instead of selecting from a narrow band of channels to occasionally find good programs at certain times, are instead tuning in to other people simply talking about ideas they have.

Agreed the Internet is a great tool are 100s of millions of opinions a real eye opener. Had myself verging once on the edges of antinatalism on compassionate grounds lol.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

never.

Not in the least bit?

 

[psychoslice]

Not in the least bit?

No, I gave up all that childish crap years ago, I have found true enlightenment within, and that's all I need thank you.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Agreed the Internet is a great tool are 100s of millions of opinions a real eye opener. Had myself verging once on the edges of antinatalism on compassionate grounds lol.

And the topics seem vast as well, vaster than it was with tv. Tv never had people doing videos on something like that.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

No, I gave up all that childish crap years ago, I have found true enlightenment within, and that's all I need thank you.

Describe more of what was 'within' if you would? How did you go toward it?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

If certainty is typically more certain than uncertainty

I sometimes forget that my posts assume a certain familiarity with particular uses of terms that I shouldn't assume (in my defense, so Feynman). Not only does the colloquial usage of uncertainty differ from the technical, there isn't even one consistent technical use, so this was my bad.

For me, subscribing as I do (or at least sympathetic to) the subjective or Bayesian interpretation of probability, certainty and uncertainty are the same things in that they are both degrees of the extent to which one holds as true some claim, proposition, or assertion (all that differentiates "I am certain of/that X" from "I am uncertain of/that X" is the presence of negation, and every belief that X is 100% certain is also a belief that the uncertainty of X is 0).
Thus when I "all that changes is the degree of certainty" this is the same as saying "all that changes is the degree of uncertainty." The difference between the two is one of direction or orientation.

 

[psychoslice]

Describe more of what was 'within' if you would? How did you go toward it?

It all started when I was going through clinical depression, one night when I feeling very suicidal, I suddenly felt like I disappeared into nothingness, I felt as I was all there is, in this so called nothingness I realized that I was One in all there is, when I came to, everything felt new, everyday was a new day, the sky was all new to me, it was beautiful. It wasn't after a while that I realized what happened to me was a realization or enlightenment experience. It was after this experience that I realized my own inner religion, and it was the best I have ever experienced.