Veda: Brahmins-Kshatriyas: Dravidian-Tamil-Sudra-Dalit-Untouchables

[paarsurrey]

I was searching like “Use of horses to tend the cattle, round them up in Indus basin or Ganges basin”, in terms of post#76 in another thread , I came by the following:

"Pan-Negroism + Islam vs. Aryanism + Judaism/Christianity? Note that, in this scenario, the Aryanists & the Zionists are in the same camp.
Myth of One Hindu Religion Exploded by Dr. Hadwa Dom .

I was a representative of the original Sudroid inhabitants of this country before it was invaded by the Aryans. I realised that my religion was not `Hinduism' but Shaivism or Dalit religion, and that the Aryan Vaishnavas were trying to destroy that faith. Indeed, I have realised that all the suffering that exists in India today have been inflicted by Brahmin-invented institutions ... . The Muslims, far from being invaders who killed Hindus, were liberators who uplifted the masses from two millenia of Brahmin oppression and slavery.

It is imperative for the survival of the Shaiva, Dravidian, Dalit, Shakta, Tantric and Adivasi religions that the Sudras realise their religious distinctiveness, and that these faiths be recognised as separate religions rather that as mere sects of Hindus. Under the guise of Hindutva, we are being made to follow Brahmanism, more specifically the sect of Aryan Vaishnavism, a faith alien to one-half of India's population.http://dalitstan.org/books/mohr/

What is the truth? Please
Please quote from Veda from its inner evidence, if one may.
Thread open to all human beings, all deserve to be respect and loved ,please.

Regards

 

[atanu]

Can you sincerely answer why you are interested so much in political-social-historical mis-comments on Vedas?

You know that there is so much unthinking violence in world due to erroneous understanding of Quran, spread by some Muslims.

Why are you not sincere?

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam

The title doesn't even make any sense.... Dunno why I was expecting any from the post.
I'll regret those two minutes of my life

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Jainarayan]

I'll regret those two minutes of my life

Two minutes gone forever.

 

[paarsurrey]

Can you sincerely answer why you are interested so much in political-social-historical mis-comments on Vedas?
You know that there is so much unthinking violence in world due to erroneous understanding of Quran, spread by some Muslims.
Why are you not sincere?

I am reading Veda/Rigveda and I am interested in the religious tenets of the Vedic people. When one reads something new, one wants to share one' thoughts, hence the comments.
Is it to bad to read Veda/Rigveda? Please
If the comments are wrong one could refute them, always. It also affords opportunity to the believers of Veda to revise its reading and seeing deeply in it. I liked when one told me as to what a "horse" means and as to what a "cattle" means in Veda. I am to understand as to what a "chariot" stands for or a "car" in Veda, please inform us and oblige.
I am at Veda/Rigveda:

[01-011] HYMN XI. Indra.
1 ALL sacred songs have magnified Indra expansive as the sea,
The best of warriors borne on cars, the Lord, the very Lord of strength.
http://www.sanskritweb.net/rigveda/griffith.pdf
Please be informed.
Regards
#79

 

[atanu]

I am reading Veda/Rigveda and I am interested in the religious tenets of the Vedic people. ....

Please be informed.
Regards

Veda is to be read under an able teacher. However, if you wish to do on your own, read it with a pure mind and not to foment politics and division. As far as I can see you are less interested in reading and absorbing the spiritual-esoteric knowledge rather than showing off and fomenting trouble.

What else is the meaning of this thread? Why these threads are made in debate section, if your intention is to learn?

I can see that you are impure of heart. Allah does not like the mischief maker.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can you sincerely answer why you are interested so much in political-social-historical mis-comments on Vedas?

Paarsurrey is a Muslim (perhaps an Ahmadiyya), therefore. For him Zakir Naik is a great scholar who understands Vedas as much as Paarsurrey himself understands. Trying to needle Hindus in anything possible. He should remember that India is one of the countries where Ahmadiyyas face no problem. In Islamic countries they are considered non-Muslims and are persecuted.

According to Purusha Sukta, all sections of the society are equally important and divine. The body cannot work without any of them. Brahmins the mouth, kshatriyas the arms, Vaishyas the stomach and Shudras the feet.

As for this Hadwa Dom, we do not know if he is a fiction, Hindu, Christian or Muslim. Internet is anonymous. It is a free world and every one has the right to present his opinions. So, my best wishes to Hadwa Dom. May he win a seat in the next election for Bihar assembly.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Allah does not like the mischief maker.

Surely, this is what Allah said. As a Muslim, he should know that. Allah would seek an explanation from him for trying to needle Hindus at the time of al-Qiyamah. An unsatisfactory answer will deprive him of Jannah and land him in a bad place. I pity him.
.
Surah Al-Kafirun (109)

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. Nor will I worship those whom you have worshipped;,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

 

[Vinayaka]

Surely, this is what Allah said. As a Muslim, he should know that. Allah would seek an explanation from him for trying to needle Hindus at the time of al-Qiyamah. An unsatisfactory answer will deprive him of Jannah and land him in a bad place. I pity him.
.
Surah Al-Kafirun (109)

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. Nor will I worship those whom you have worshipped;,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

If one can't follow their own scripture, how in blazes can one be off studying another faith's scripture? Would it not be somewhat more productive to taker on a more serius study of one's own?

 

[paarsurrey]

Veda is to be read under an able teacher. However, if you wish to do on your own, read it with a pure mind and not to foment politics and division. As far as I can see you are less interested in reading and absorbing the spiritual-esoteric knowledge rather than showing off and fomenting trouble.
What else is the meaning of this thread? Why these threads are made in debate section, if your intention is to learn?
I can see that you are impure of heart. Allah does not like the mischief maker.

It is an old tool of the clergy to restrict the masses from reading the scriptures themselves. The clergy think that if people will read them themselves then they won't be needed, anymore.
The scriptures are self-explanatory from the context of the verses inside the scripture, else the narrators/scribes/clergy have interfered with it by adding things, subtracting things and concealing things. They need to be exposed. Right? Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Veda: Brahmins-Kshatriyas: Dravidian-Tamil-Sudra-Dalit-Untouchables

Does this relate to battle of 10 Kings fought at the banks of Ravi?
Or it relates to destruction of Harappa Civilization



"4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones
fled to destruction. {riteless, i.e. irreligious, from the Aryan point of view, as the Jewish-derived religions consider others pagan or heathen}
5 Fighting with pious worshippers, the riteless turned and fled, Indra! with averted faces.
When thou, fierce Lord of the Bay Steeds, the Stayer, blewest from earth and
heaven and sky the godless.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless: then the Navagvas put forth
all their power. {blameless, i.e. those loyal to the gods}
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths
from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and lauds thee. {i.e. those who win the gods' favour}
8 Adorned with their array of gold and jewels, they o'er the earth a covering veil extended. {gold & jewels ... the wealth of Harappa}
Although they hastened, they o'ercame not Indra: their spies he compassed with the Sun of morning.
9 As thou enjoyest heaven and earth, O Indra, on every side surrounded with thy greatness,
So thou with priests bast blown away the Dasyu, and those who worship not with those who worship.
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu
when he battled,
The dust of trampling horses rose to heaven, and Svitri's son stood up again
for conquest."
Rigveda HYMN XXXIII. Indra.
http://mailstar.net/rig-veda.html

Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, it does not relate to the decline of Indus/Saraswati valley civilization. I cannot date the Battle of Ten Kings, though I can imagine where it took place.

AND the hymn that you have quoted does not relate even to the Battle of Ten Kings. It mentions the yearly fight between Indra and the demons of darkness who will hide the sun for two months. It is about life in Arctic circle.

Likely site of the Battle of Ten Kings: No. I could not find any reference to King Sudas' possible capital. The combined army of the ten kings could have tried to ford the river somewhere around Narowal. So I would end this research by including the Google Earth image of Narowal and surrounding areas.

 

[paarsurrey]

No, it does not relate to the decline of Indus/Saraswati valley civilization. I cannot date the Battle of Ten Kings, though I can imagine where it took place.
AND the hymn that you have quoted does not relate even to the Battle of Ten Kings. It mentions the yearly fight between Indra and the demons of darkness who will hide the sun for two months. It is about life in Arctic circle.
Likely site of the Battle of Ten Kings: Kasur. Further North-East, there are many streams and that will make the passage of the army difficult, and at Kasur, an invading army will face the full fury of the flood, that is perhaps what happened. Perhaps Moga was the capital of King Sudas.
"The old ruined mound on which Moga is situated, is 600 feet long by 400 feet broad and 50 feet high, and is visible for many miles on all sides. It contains 975 houses built of large old bricks and 5000 inhabitants, who are chiefly Jats. The old wells are very numerous, their exact number, according to my informant, being 175. I have already stated that I take Moga to be the site of Nikea, the city which Alexander built on the scene of his battle with Porus. The evidence on this point is, I think, as complete as could be wished; .."
"Ancient Geography of India" Sir Alexander Cunningham, First surveyor General of Archaeology, India.
Not complete. Still conducting my research.

And your arguments to take it to Arctic instead of to keep it in the Indian-sub-Continent, it is not mentioned in Veda/Yajurveda. Is it? Please
As I have several times mentioned, my interest is in tbe Scripture, these days I am reading Veda so please quote from the inside of the Veda to support your arguments. I am not interested whether there were any people called "Aryans", my interest is in the people of Veda their activities and tenets. Neither I am for the "Aryans" nor against them. For the period please mention if it was a pre-Veda or Vedic or post-Vedic period.
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Check again. I was not successful in my research. The Battle of Ten Kings has no connection with Arctic. It very much happened in India. I could not find a pre-historic town which can qualify for being the capital of King Sudas. The only town which merits that description is Jalandhar in Punjab, but it is a bit too far away from River Ravi (RigVedic Parushni).

 

[paarsurrey]

Check again. I was not successful in my research. The Battle of Ten Kings has no connection with Arctic. It very much happened in India. I could not find a pre-historic town which can qualify for being the capital of King Sudas. The only town which merits that description is Jalandhar in Punjab, but it is a bit too far away from River Ravi (RigVedic Parushni).

1. The site from which I quoted hold that the Rigveda HYMN XXXIII Indra, verses 4-14 is related to Destruction of Harrapa Civilization. Please refer post #11 .
2. In one of your posts you mentioned that the Vedic people only fought one battle or war in the Indian-sub-Continent and that is War of Ten Kings and that was fought near Ravi, Right? it is OK if one suggests that it was fought near the city of Kasur.
3. Here is another battle war as given in #1 above.
4. One mentioned in post #12 above, "No, it does not relate to the decline of Indus/Saraswati valley civilization." " It mentions the yearly fight between Indra and the demons of darkness who will hide the sun for two months. It is about life in Arctic circle."

How does one relate it to "War of Ten Kings" if it was the only fight that occurred in the Veda or how does one relate it to "life in the Arctic circle"? That is the question, asked by me in post #13 ,please.
Hope it is clear now.

Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Parsurrey, you are trying to understand something which perhaps is beyond your ability. But I will again try to make you understand.

1. Their is an allegorical battle in RigVeda which is yearly. This relates to the period when they were living in Arctic circle. When the sun was not visible during the Arctic night for two months, the Vedic priests conducted various rituals supposed to strengthen their chief God Indra to kill the demons of darkness and bring the sun back. This belief is not less than 8000 years old.

2. There was an actual battle on the banks of River Ravi after Aryans had settled in India. King Sudas of the Tristsu tribe had his kingdom in the Est of River Ravi. A large group from North West (more than ten tribes), some of which were Aryans and some were not, attacked Sudas and Sudas was in a retreat because his army was out-numbered. The attackers tried to cross River Ravi, but a huge flash flood occured at that very time. Many of the attacking soldiers were washed away in the flood and the rest retreated. Seeing his chance, Sudas attacked their forces and decimated them. Sudas' people thought that the victory was due to timely help by Lord Indra.

The hymn from RigVeda that you quoted related to the allegorical battle (1) and not Sudas' actual battle (2). I hope the two stories are now clear to you.

 

[paarsurrey]

Parsurrey, you are trying to understand something which perhaps is beyond your ability. But I will again try to make you understand.
1. Their is an allegoriccal battle in RigVeda which is yearly. This relates to the period when they were living in Arctic circle. When the sun was not visible during the Arctic night for two months, the Vedic priests conducted various rituals supposed to strengthen their chief God Indra to kill the demons of darkness and bring the sun back. This belief is not less than 8000 years old.
2. There was an actual battle on the banks of River Ravi after Aryans had settled in India. King Sudas of the Tristsu tribe had his kingdom in the Est of River Ravi. A large group from North West (more than ten tribes), some of which were Aryans and some were not, attacked Sudas and Sudas was in a retreat because his army was out-numbered. The attackers tried to cross River Ravi, but a huge flash flood occured at that very time. Many of the attacking soldiers were washed away in the flood and the rest retreated. Seeing his chance, Sudas attacked their forces and decimated them. Sudas' people thought that the victory was due to timely help by Lord Indra.
The hymn from RigVeda that you quoted related to the allegorical battle (1) and not Sudas' actual battle (2). I hope the two stories are now clear to you.

There are alwaysclues in the text which leads/suggest one to allegory, if there are no clues then it is incorrect not to take it real. Please
Please mention the clues in the hymn which suggest in one to take actual and the other allegorical. Please
Regards

 

[atanu]

Veda: Brahmins-Kshatriyas: Dravidian-Tamil-Sudra-Dalit-Untouchables

Does this relate to battle of 10 Kings fought at the banks of Ravi?
Or it relates to destruction of Harappa Civilization

"4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones
fled to destruction. {riteless, i.e. irreligious, from the Aryan point of view, as the Jewish-derived religions consider others pagan or heathen}
5 Fighting with pious worshippers, the riteless turned and fled, Indra! with averted faces.
When thou, fierce Lord of the Bay Steeds, the Stayer, blewest from earth and
heaven and sky the godless.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless: then the Navagvas put forth
all their power. {blameless, i.e. those loyal to the gods}
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths
from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and lauds thee. {i.e. those who win the gods' favour}
8 Adorned with their array of gold and jewels, they o'er the earth a covering veil extended. {gold & jewels ... the wealth of Harappa}
Although they hastened, they o'ercame not Indra: their spies he compassed with the Sun of morning.
9 As thou enjoyest heaven and earth, O Indra, on every side surrounded with thy greatness,
So thou with priests bast blown away the Dasyu, and those who worship not with those who worship.
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu
when he battled,
The dust of trampling horses rose to heaven, and Svitri's son stood up again
for conquest."
Rigveda HYMN XXXIII. Indra.
http://mailstar.net/rig-veda.html

Regards

Indra is the vital air, the life force, the kindler.

Soul starts from being a localised seat of conciousness and attains pinnacle when it is known as Indra and further attains infinitude, when it is known as Brahman.

All these stages are of Indra, known by different names at different stages.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oh yes, some times it is possible to find clues, sometimes it is not. But the hymns that you posted has clear clues.

"4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones fled to destruction.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless: then the Navagvas put forth all their power.
(Aup explains: Navagwahas were priests who completted their yearly sacrificil cycle in nine-months)
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and lauds thee.
(This refers to the poet who was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra)
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu* when he battled.
(Sage Kutsa was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra and Dasadyu is the Chief/leader who has arranged the Yajna)"

* Griffith has the name as Dasadyu.
Why are you not using Griffith's translation at Sacredtexts.com? That is world-renowned unbiased. The one that you have quoted from is a biased Christian site. The explanations given are intentionally wrong. You always seem to select the wrong site.

As for the Battle of ten kings, here is the hymn: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07018.htm

5 What though the floods spread widely, Indra made them shallow and easy for Sudās to traverse.
He, worthy of our praises, caused the Simyu, foe of our hymn, to curse the rivers' fury.
6 Eager for spoil was Turvaśa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
The Bhṛgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.
(Purodas was the leader of the combined armies opposing Sudas)
7 Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.
Yet to the Trtsus came the Ārya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.
(These were the people who joined together against Sudas. Pakthas (Pashtoons) are mentions here)
12 Thou, thunder-armed, o’erwhelmedst in the waters famed ancient Kavasa and then the Druhyu.
Others here claiming friendship to their friendship, devoted unto thee, in thee were joyful.
(Tribes, whose armies were washed away)

It is a detailed description of the attacking tribes and what happened to them. It has nothing to do with dalits or dravidas. The war took place somewhere around Lahore region. I hope you are able to see the clues.

 

[paarsurrey]

Oh yes, some times it is possible to find clues, sometimes it is not. But the hymns that you posted has clear clues.

"4 Thou slewest with thy bolt the wealthy Dasyu, alone, yet going with thy helpers, Indra!
Far from the floor of heaven in all directions, the ancient riteless ones fled to destruction.
6 They met in fight the army of the blameless: then the Navagvas put forth all their power.
(Aup explains: Navagwahas were priests who completted their yearly sacrificil cycle in nine-months)
They, like emasculates with men contending, fled, conscious, by steep paths from Indra, scattered.
7 Whether they weep or laugh, thou hast o'erthrown them, O Indra, on the sky's extremest limit.
The Dasyu thou hast burned from heaven, and welcomed the prayer of him who pours the juice and lauds thee.
(This refers to the poet who was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra)
14 Indra, thou helpest Kutsa whom thou lovedst, and guardedst brave Dagadyu* when he battled.
(Sage Kutsa was praying and offering Soma drink to Indra and Dasadyu is the Chief/leader who has arranged the Yajna)"

* Griffith has the name as Dasadyu.
Why are you not using Griffith's translation at Sacredtexts.com? That is world-renowned unbiased. The one that you have quoted from is a biased Christian site. The explanations given are intentionally wrong. You always seem to select the wrong site.

As for the Battle of ten kings, here is the hymn: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07018.htm

5 What though the floods spread widely, Indra made them shallow and easy for Sudās to traverse.
He, worthy of our praises, caused the Simyu, foe of our hymn, to curse the rivers' fury.
6 Eager for spoil was Turvaśa Purodas, fain to win wealth, like fishes urged by hunger.
The Bhṛgus and the Druhyus quickly listened: friend rescued friend mid the two distant peoples.
(Purodas was the leader of the combined armies opposing Sudas)
7 Together came the Pakthas, the Bhalanas, the Alinas, the Sivas, the Visanins.
Yet to the Trtsus came the Ārya's Comrade, through love of spoil and heroes' war, to lead them.
(These were the people who joined together against Sudas. Pakthas (Pashtoons) are mentions here)
12 Thou, thunder-armed, o’erwhelmedst in the waters famed ancient Kavasa and then the Druhyu.
Others here claiming friendship to their friendship, devoted unto thee, in thee were joyful.
(Tribes, whose armies were washed away)

It is a detailed description of the attacking tribes and what happened to them. It has nothing to do with dalits or dravidas. The war took place somewhere around Lahore region. I hope you are able to see the clues.

It is not selected by me, the passage has been quoted from the Daulits site, reference given by me as http://mailstar.net/rig-veda.html.

1. Aup explains: Navagwahas were priests who completted their yearly sacrificil cycle in nine-months.
   • No, it is not a clue if it is mentioned in Veda that Navagwahas were only detailed for "sacrificial cycle of nine-months", if it was not as such then it is definitely not related to it and it is not a valid clue for the purpose. Right? Please quote from Veda to make it valid.

Regards