Sense of sacred vs science

[SkylarHunter]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/27/us/tmt-hawaii-telescope-controversy/index.html

Although I have a great deal of respect for people's personal beliefs and their family's history, in this particular case I believe the world has a lot more to benefit from the new telescope than from the place's ancient significance.
I mean no disrespect to the families, but I hope they build that amazing machine that will allow us to learn so much more about the universe. I don't think the past should stop us from moving forward.

 

[Skwim]

In as much as there are already 13 telescopes on the summit I fail to see the harm in adding another.

 

[Quintessence]

Those of Western European decent have been abusing, desecrating, and disrespecting Paganisms for centuries. They think that their needs are more important than those of indigenous people, and simply bulldoze them out of the way when they become an inconvenience. You'd think that in this post-colonial, post-imperialist era, these things would no longer be permitted to occur.

 

[Laika]

I think the reaction would be very different if this was a religious site belonging to one of the abrahamic religions. If you said you were going to flatten the vatican, mecca or jerusuleum to build a telescope, which is probably a rough eqivilent to site that constitutes "the genesis of their people, and it is the burial ground for their most revered ancestors", you can expect similar outrage and but with the difference is that it would be taken seriously. As there are already 12 telescopes on the plateau, and the protesters are demanding only that they stop building on additional sites, I suspect that is a fairly reasonable request.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, the double standard is irksome, and nobody would even propose leveling a historical/religious site of Western/Abrahamic significance to build such a thing. The double standard is sadly predicable. The cultural genocide continues...

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Those of Western European decent have been abusing, desecrating, and disrespecting Paganisms for centuries. They think that their needs are more important than those of indigenous people, and simply bulldoze them out of the way when they become an inconvenience. You'd think that in this post-colonial, post-imperialist era, these things would no longer be permitted to occur.

Unfortunately, such assaults are common. We are not really post-colonial or post-imperial--it's just changed form. Congress earlier in the summer approved the sale and leasing to mining companies areas that are claimed by Native nations as holy grounds. This has been going on for more than two centuries, and looks like it won't be stopped anytime soon. The Western construction of religion is that you can have whatever beliefs you want and whatever practices you want, just as long as you don't take up valuable real estate that corporations can make money on, or that we can learn "important" stuff about the universe by imposing ourselves on and/or destroying.

One hopes that if construction continues, the Hawaiian gods don't get too ticked.

Who knows? Maybe they [the Hawaiian gods] are curious about what the astronomers will find, too!

 

[Wirey]

Those of Western European decent have been abusing, desecrating, and disrespecting Paganisms for centuries. They think that their needs are more important than those of indigenous people, and simply bulldoze them out of the way when they become an inconvenience. You'd think that in this post-colonial, post-imperialist era, these things would no longer be permitted to occur.

Coming soon to this post: A brand new Wal-Mart!

What, too ironic?

 

[SkylarHunter]

I think the reaction would be very different if this was a religious site belonging to one of the abrahamic religions. If you said you were going to flatten the vatican, mecca or jerusuleum to build a telescope, which is probably a rough eqivilent to site that constitutes "the genesis of their people, and it is the burial ground for their most revered ancestors", you can expect similar outrage and but with the difference is that it would be taken seriously. As there are already 12 telescopes on the plateau, and the protesters are demanding only that they stop building on additional sites, I suspect that is a fairly reasonable request.

Personally, I couldn't care less if someone gets rid of the vatican, mecca or jerusalem. Actually, I think that would be a great contribution to world peace but that's just me.
I think you have a solid point and it is a complicated situation to manage, but at the same time if there are already 12 telescopes there does one more make that much of a difference? At the same time from what i see in the pictures the place looks like a desert, there isn't much there. The people who were buried there are bellow the ground and that isn't going to change so technically I can't see why building the telescope is such a big deal. But maybe my love for science and discovery is biasing and I'm just seeing what I want to see. I get really excited with the possibility of learning new stuff.

 

[illykitty]

Can someone explain to me why there are so many telescopes and why don't they just destroy an old one rebuild on top since it's already taking up some space there? I imagine they can't simply upgrade them... So why not just rebuild on top of an already taken site instead of giving a giant middle finger to the natives by just building more and more?

Can't there be a compromise here? I feel sad for the natives, the mount is theirs too.

 

[Augustus]

I think the reaction would be very different if this was a religious site belonging to one of the abrahamic religions.

Not even just a religious site, any place of historical or cultural interest would prompt a backlash.

When ISIS destroy ancient artefacts, they are the 'world's biggest barbarians'. 'Just look at their contempt for history! They must be violently killed asap!'

When it's a white scientist who says 'sorry for ruining the most sacred site in your entire culture, but we really wanted that 13th telescope.' though, it is progress.

I really hate watching ISIS destroying cultural history, even though it is not specifically 'my' history. I probably would never have visited these places, but knowing they are being destroyed is horrendous.

I have to imagine that these Hawaiians feel much more strongly about this than I do about ISIS's wanton destruction, so I can't see how I could support such a thing without being somewhat hypocritical.

 

[Laika]

Personally, I couldn't care less if someone gets rid of the vatican, mecca or jerusalem. Actually, I think that would be a great contribution to world peace but that's just me.

oh the secret yearning. You're alot braver to admit to it than me.

But maybe my love for science and discovery is biasing and I'm just seeing what I want to see. I get really excited with the possibility of learning new stuff.

I know the feeling. Even at the thought of it, I can see myself standing on top of this plateau looking up at the night sky with a feeling of awe. I get the sense that that is why it is such a sacred site, and that really both are trying to express the same emotion but for different reasons. I don't see why we can't have both given that both are engaged in an act of worship to comprehend the majesty of eternity and infinity as it stretches out before us in the night sky.

(sorry. I'm tripping. thinking about space seems to get me all inspired.)

I have to imagine that these Hawaiians feel much more strongly about this than I do about ISIS's wanton destruction, so I can't see how I could support such a thing without being somewhat hypocritical.

I really hadn't thought of that. that's an excellent point.

 

[Underhill]

I think the reaction would be very different if this was a religious site belonging to one of the abrahamic religions. If you said you were going to flatten the vatican, mecca or jerusuleum to build a telescope, which is probably a rough eqivilent to site that constitutes "the genesis of their people, and it is the burial ground for their most revered ancestors", you can expect similar outrage and but with the difference is that it would be taken seriously. As there are already 12 telescopes on the plateau, and the protesters are demanding only that they stop building on additional sites, I suspect that is a fairly reasonable request.

This is also a religion involving how many people? I could post a sign on my lawn declaring our little animal graveyard a sacred site of the Myopic Penis religion and all of its three followers. But I doubt anyone would take it seriously.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can someone explain to me why there are so many telescopes and why don't they just destroy an old one rebuild on top since it's already taking up some space there? I imagine they can't simply upgrade them... So why not just rebuild on top of an already taken site instead of giving a giant middle finger to the natives by just building more and more?

Can't there be a compromise here? I feel sad for the natives, the mount is theirs too.

The telescopes get very heavy use.
But I have a compromise!
Let's flatten a church, a synagogue, & a federal building for every new telescope built on the mountain.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Can someone explain to me why there are so many telescopes and why don't they just destroy an old one rebuild on top since it's already taking up some space there? I imagine they can't simply upgrade them... So why not just rebuild on top of an already taken site instead of giving a giant middle finger to the natives by just building more and more?

Can't there be a compromise here? I feel sad for the natives, the mount is theirs too.

well, they do continually upgrade and improve the existing telescopes, and as far as I know, none are idle. Even some very old observatories are still in use after a century or more here on the mainland. As long as the optics remain good, the rest of the control and observation equipment can be replaced around it to keep it useful.

There are so many scopes up there because it is one of the best places on earth for large ground-based telescopes, and there is still room for more, and universities and other research organizations are willing to spend lots of money to put more up there so they can do more and different research that the earlier scopes can't do.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

This is also a religion involving how many people? I could post a sign on my lawn declaring our little animal graveyard a sacred site of the Myopic Penis religion and all of its three followers. But I doubt anyone would take it seriously.

so, if it's a small enough minority, it becomes irrelevant? They lose their rights just because there are "only a few of them?" Only large groups can be taken seriously?

 

[Quintessence]

This is also a religion involving how many people? I could post a sign on my lawn declaring our little animal graveyard a sacred site of the Myopic Penis religion and all of its three followers. But I doubt anyone would take it seriously.

If minorities, religious or irreligious, are not protected from the tyranny of the majority, we might as well shred the American constitution. I would take heed of your own words, sir, because as agnostics are an (ir)religions minority themselves, your own words have some damning implications for yourself.

 

[Laika]

This is also a religion involving how many people? I could post a sign on my lawn declaring our little animal graveyard a sacred site of the Myopic Penis religion and all of its three followers. But I doubt anyone would take it seriously.

European influence on Hawaii led to large localised depopulation due to influenenza, smallpox, measles in the 19th century. When Captain cook "discovered" the island there were around 80,000 to 250,000 Hawiians. By 1900, it was reduced to 37,656 of full or partial of native Hawaiian ancestry. Hawaii was annexed by the US illegally in 1898 inspite of the fact the annexation treaty wasn't passed in the US Senate and produced widespread opposition amongst hawaiians. it wasn't recognised as a US state until 1954, but in the meantime was ruled by sugar plantaton owners. Only in 1978 did the Hawaii state constitutional convention create the office of hawaiian affiars to promote indigeonous langauge and culture. In the 2000 US census it showed that there were 283,430 resistents of native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders ancestry out of a population of 1.4 million (2014 est.)

The fact they are a minority is down to historical de-population as the result of European contact, so in a historical context, your argument that they lost their right to defend their traditions because the descendants of europeans outnumber them doesn't hold much weight.

 

[Revoltingest]

European influence on Hawaii led to large localised depopulation due to influenenza, smallpox, measles in the 19th century. When Captain cook "discovered" the island there were around 80,000 to 250,000 Hawiians. By 1900, it was reduced to 37,656 of full or partial of native Hawaiian ancestry. Hawaii was annexed by the US illegally in 1898 inspite of the fact the annexation treaty wasn't passed in the US Senate and produced widespread opposition amongst hawaiians. it wasn't recognised as a US state until 1954, but in the meantime was ruled by sugar plantaton owners. Only in 1978 did the Hawaii state constitutional convention create the office of hawaiian affiars to promote indigeonous langauge and culture. In the 2000 US census it showed that there were 283,430 resistents of native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders ancestry out of a population of 1.4 million (2014 est.)

The fact they are a minority is down to historical de-population as the result of European contact, so in a historical context, your argument that they lost their right to defend their traditions because the descendants of europeans outnumber them doesn't hold much weight.

Not installing telescopes won't cure those old sins.

 

[Quintessence]

Not installing telescopes won't cure those old sins.

No, it won't... much like deciding to not stab someone again does not erase the scars from the last time one stabbed them.

 

[Laika]

Not installing telescopes won't cure those old sins.

No. But we can't heal the wounds by inflicting new ones.