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Pope Francis says Church should apologise to gays

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36636845

Pope Francis says Church should apologise to gays

Pope Francis has said that the Roman Catholic Church should apologise to gay people for the way it has treated them.

He told reporters that the Church had no right to judge the gay community, and should show them respect.

The pontiff also said the Church should seek forgiveness from other people it had marginalised - women, the poor, and children forced into labour.

The Pope has been hailed by many in the gay community for his positive attitude towards homosexuals.

But some conservative Catholics have criticised him for making comments they say are ambiguous about sexual morality.

Speaking to reporters on his plane returning from Armenia, the Pope said: "I will repeat what the catechism of the Church says, that they [homosexuals] should not be discriminated against, that they should be respected, accompanied pastorally."

Pope Francis said the Church should seek forgiveness from those whom it had marginalised.

"I think that the Church not only should apologise... to a gay person whom it offended but it must also apologise to the poor as well, to the women who have been exploited, to children who have been exploited by [being forced to] work. It must apologise for having blessed so many weapons."

 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I'll just repost what I said in the other thread:

Nice, but I've had enough of these vague statements. "Very recently"? No, it's still going on. Eventually the Church is going to fully accept LGBT people, so they need to stop dragging their feet on it. They used to teach that Jews killed Christ and are cursed by God due to it and that everyone outside of the Church is going straight to hell, and they did a 180 on those things (which angered the arch-conservatives and led to sedevacantism), so they know they can change on this point. It's not a matter of dogma. I don't recall where in the Nicene Creed it says anything about LGBT people. The arch-conservative types who hate LGBT people and ignore Christ's social message will of course be angry when the Vatican finally fully accepts LGBT people as we are, but oh, well. It's a matter of separating the wheat from the tares. The Church will continue on without them, if they want to schism, like it always has. Let them be marginalized. Unlike LGBT people, it's not a matter of them changing who they are. They can change from hatred to loving their neighbor.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36636845

Pope Francis says Church should apologise to gays

Pope Francis has said that the Roman Catholic Church should apologise to gay people for the way it has treated them.

He told reporters that the Church had no right to judge the gay community, and should show them respect.

The pontiff also said the Church should seek forgiveness from other people it had marginalised - women, the poor, and children forced into labour.

The Pope has been hailed by many in the gay community for his positive attitude towards homosexuals.

But some conservative Catholics have criticised him for making comments they say are ambiguous about sexual morality.

Speaking to reporters on his plane returning from Armenia, the Pope said: "I will repeat what the catechism of the Church says, that they [homosexuals] should not be discriminated against, that they should be respected, accompanied pastorally."

Pope Francis said the Church should seek forgiveness from those whom it had marginalised.

"I think that the Church not only should apologise... to a gay person whom it offended but it must also apologise to the poor as well, to the women who have been exploited, to children who have been exploited by [being forced to] work. It must apologise for having blessed so many weapons."

I agree with what Francis say. However, there is a catch:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine effective and sexual complementary. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Its a catch-22. Pope Francis can say not to discriminate, that's fine. The Church discriminates by defining a homosexual in a way that many don't define ourselves. If a homosexual relationship is just as well meaning as a straight one, according to Pope Francis, then the Church shouldn't see us as disordered nor should our intimacy within our blessed given relationship be pulled a part and branded to chastity.

Unless he changes Church doctrine, how will his words have an affect on many Catholics who are obviously bias against homosexuals because they define us by our actions?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think it is highly unlikely that this pope or any future pope is likely to change church teachings of almost 2000 years that homosexual activity is a sin, but he certainly is trying to make the church's responses to those who have that lifestyle more humane.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Just what is this "church" that's supposed to apologize to gays? Wouldn't this be the Pope himself?


.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I think it is highly unlikely that this pope or any future pope is likely to change church teachings of almost 2000 years that homosexual activity is a sin, but he certainly is trying to make the church's responses to those who have that lifestyle more humane.
The Church has changed on several issues over the centuries, such as its anti-Semitism and teaching that non-Catholics are necessarily damned to hell. So there's certainly room for change here. The Church's views on LGBT people aren't as clear-cut as people like to think, either.

For example:

"A same-sex marriage between the two men Pedro Díaz and Muño Vandilaz in the Galician municipality of Rairiz de Veiga in Spain occurred on 16 April 1061. They were married by a priest at a small chapel. The historic documents about the church wedding were found at Monastery of San Salvador de Celanova.[16]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_same-sex_marriage_in_Spain

Other resources:
http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/pwh/index-med.asp#c5
http://web.archive.org/web/20001110011500/http://www.bway.net/~halsall/lgbh/
http://www.well.com/~aquarius/
http://www.alternet.org/story/14792...uth_--_early_christians_condoned_gay_marriage

This insistence on heterosexuality being some wonderful gift of God in modern Catholicism is absurd and doesn't square with the Church's teachings throughout history. In early Christianity, sex in general wasn't seen as some wonderful thing. It was degrading and a reminder of our sinfulness, in that the body is fallen and sinful, we're often the products of sin and we're born in a sinful state. Celibacy was the gold standard for all Christians. Only when you couldn't control yourself was it advised for you to marry. (1 Corinthians 7:9). Jesus, Paul and most of the Church Fathers were strict ascetics. Along with that, there is also quite a bit of homoeroticism in the writings of male Catholic mystics. They obviously viewed Christ as a lover and even viewed themselves as married to Him.

So there's a lot of queerness inherit in Catholic spirituality. Sadly, most are very ignorant of this, since it's buried in historical texts.

Just what is this "church" that's supposed to apologize to gays? Wouldn't this be the Pope himself?


.
The Church is the mystical Body of Christ that consists of all who are Baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (and in communion with the Bishop of Rome, in terms of Catholicism).
 
Last edited:

Skwim

Veteran Member
T
The Church is the mystical Body of Christ that consists of all who are Baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (and in communion with the Bishop of Rome, in terms of Catholicism).
I assume then that the Pope expecting all Catholics to apologize to the gays en masse, including those Catholics who don't have anything to apologize for.


.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Church has changed on several issues over the centuries, such as its anti-Semitism and teaching that non-Catholics are necessarily damned to hell. So there's certainly room for change here. The Church's views on LGBT people aren't as clear-cut as people like to think, either.

For example:

"A same-sex marriage between the two men Pedro Díaz and Muño Vandilaz in the Galician municipality of Rairiz de Veiga in Spain occurred on 16 April 1061. They were married by a priest at a small chapel. The historic documents about the church wedding were found at Monastery of San Salvador de Celanova.[16]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_same-sex_marriage_in_Spain

Other resources:
http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/pwh/index-med.asp#c5
http://web.archive.org/web/20001110011500/http://www.bway.net/~halsall/lgbh/
http://www.well.com/~aquarius/
http://www.alternet.org/story/14792...uth_--_early_christians_condoned_gay_marriage

This insistence on heterosexuality being some wonderful gift of God in modern Catholicism is absurd and doesn't square with the Church's teachings throughout history. In early Christianity, sex in general wasn't seen as some wonderful thing. It was degrading and a reminder of our sinfulness, in that the body is fallen and sinful, we're often the products of sin and we're born in a sinful state. Celibacy was the gold standard for all Christians. Only when you couldn't control yourself was it advised for you to marry. (1 Corinthians 7:9). Jesus, Paul and most of the Church Fathers were strict ascetics. Along with that, there is also quite a bit of homoeroticism in the writings of male Catholic mystics. They obviously viewed Christ as a lover and even viewed themselves as married to Him.

So there's a lot of queerness inherit in Catholic spirituality. Sadly, most are very ignorant of this, since it's buried in historical texts.


The Church is the mystical Body of Christ that consists of all who are Baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (and in communion with the Bishop of Rome, in terms of Catholicism).
Actually the church's teaching on homosexuality is historical, scriptural, and a carryover from early Judaism and is simply is not just a recent teaching. See: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

Now, don't get me wrong, I am citing the church's traditional view, not my own. But let me take this a step further.

The RCC is like the Roman traffic cop-- some pay attention to him, some ignore him, and some see where he's directing them to go but decide to go in the direction that they choose. In regards to the teachings of the church, you get much the same reaction, and that's viewed as being pretty much OK most of the time.

To put it another way, the church's teachings are what they are, but it is up to the individual to decide which way to go, but only as long as it doesn't negatively affect others or gets taught falsely. The church cannot "save" anyone, so each person is responsible for their own choices. If one's conscience says to disobey a specific teaching, the person has the right to do so as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. If there is a conflict, then the church can and may step in to decide what's to be done, much like the Roman traffic cop can sort out fault if there's an accident.

Since homosexual behavior in most cases not forced on anyone, the individual Catholic can decide what's best for him/her, but then it sorta fits into the "don't ask/don't tell" situation, and one can get into trouble with the church if they teach that this is morally acceptable as a Catholic teaching.

Will the church change it's teachings on this? Hard to say, but don't hold your breath. Since there's sufficient evidence that such behavior is typically genetic, I don't have any problem with it whatsoever as long as it's consensual.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Actually the church's teaching on homosexuality is historical, scriptural, and a carryover from early Judaism and is simply is not just a recent teaching. See: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

Now, don't get me wrong, I am citing the church's traditional view, not my own. But let me take this a step further.

The RCC is like the Roman traffic cop-- some pay attention to him, some ignore him, and some see where he's directing them to go but decide to go in the direction that they choose. In regards to the teachings of the church, you get much the same reaction, and that's viewed as being pretty much OK most of the time.

To put it another way, the church's teachings are what they are, but it is up to the individual to decide which way to go, but only as long as it doesn't negatively affect others or gets taught falsely. The church cannot "save" anyone, so each person is responsible for their own choices. If one's conscience says to disobey a specific teaching, the person has the right to do so as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. If there is a conflict, then the church can and may step in to decide what's to be done, much like the Roman traffic cop can sort out fault if there's an accident.

Since homosexual behavior in most cases not forced on anyone, the individual Catholic can decide what's best for him/her, but then it sorta fits into the "don't ask/don't tell" situation, and one can get into trouble with the church if they teach that this is morally acceptable as a Catholic teaching.

Will the church change it's teachings on this? Hard to say, but don't hold your breath. Since there's sufficient evidence that such behavior is typically genetic, I don't have any problem with it whatsoever as long as it's consensual.
I know what the official Church stance now is. Catholic.com is a conservative Catholic site, so of course they're going to present an anti-gay point of view. There's transphobic garbage on there, too. I've seen an article from a Catholic writer on another site saying that it would be better for trans people to kill themselves than to transition. I presented scholarly sources, though, and it shows that the Church's position has not been all that clear throughout history. The anti-gay "clobber" verses are repeatedly cherry pick out of their textual and historical context, mistranslated and misinterpreted, as well.

Personally, I'm sick of the whole debate. I've argued about this for years. I'm burnt out. I love Catholic spirituality, but the official teachings on sexual morality are very toxic and repressive. It causes great harm. Trans people aren't even allowed to be godparents now, apparently. I actually don't look forward to going back to church because of this. It's human beings who are ruining it for me and who are driving others away.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I know what the official Church stance now is. Catholic.com is a conservative Catholic site, so of course they're going to present an anti-gay point of view. There's transphobic garbage on there, too. I've seen an article from a Catholic writer on another site saying that it would be better for trans people to kill themselves than to transition. I presented scholarly sources, though, and it shows that the Church's position has not been all that clear throughout history. The anti-gay "clobber" verses are repeatedly cherry pick out of their textual and historical context, mistranslated and misinterpreted, as well.

Personally, I'm sick of the whole debate. I've argued about this for years. I'm burnt out. I love Catholic spirituality, but the official teachings on sexual morality are very toxic and repressive. It causes great harm. Trans people aren't even allowed to be godparents now, apparently. I actually don't look forward to going back to church because of this. It's human beings who are ruining it for me and who are driving others away.
It's only "toxic and repressive" if you allow it to be "toxic and repressive". You have the full right to determine your course of actions. IOW, you're internalizing something that you simply do not have to internalize.

As far as the church teachings are concerned on this, they have been quite consistent, and this includes the teachings that sexual activity must be open to procreation, which of course is an impossibility with homosexual activity. This is why there have been teachings against artificial birth control (rare exceptions excluded), against masturbation, and even using sex as just a source of entertainment (remember the "missionary position"). These also were consistent with traditional Jewish positions, so there's not much doubt where they emerged from.

Much like the church was wrong about the geo-centric theory, it also can be wrong in other areas as well. However, the church will continue to teach that which it believes is morally right, regardless of what you or I may think. Don't let it frustrate you-- just do what you think is right, and there's no reason for you to not go to mass because of this. Just a recommendation.

BTW, I disagree probably with about 90% of basic church teachings (see my signature statement at the bottom of this post), and yet I go weekly with my wife, and I probably would still go if she were to pass away before I. I don't have to agree with everything in order to get something out of the mass.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36636845

Pope Francis says Church should apologise to gays

Pope Francis has said that the Roman Catholic Church should apologise to gay people for the way it has treated them.

He told reporters that the Church had no right to judge the gay community, and should show them respect.

The pontiff also said the Church should seek forgiveness from other people it had marginalised - women, the poor, and children forced into labour.

The Pope has been hailed by many in the gay community for his positive attitude towards homosexuals.

But some conservative Catholics have criticised him for making comments they say are ambiguous about sexual morality.

Speaking to reporters on his plane returning from Armenia, the Pope said: "I will repeat what the catechism of the Church says, that they [homosexuals] should not be discriminated against, that they should be respected, accompanied pastorally."

Pope Francis said the Church should seek forgiveness from those whom it had marginalised.

"I think that the Church not only should apologise... to a gay person whom it offended but it must also apologise to the poor as well, to the women who have been exploited, to children who have been exploited by [being forced to] work. It must apologise for having blessed so many weapons."


Words are cheap. If Francis means it then he needs to tell dioceses and parishes around the globe to stop doing things like campaigning against marriage equality, preventing LGBTs being able to adopt from Catholic agencies, spreading misinformation and outright lies against condoms and other methods of contraception, stop teaching that women brought sin into the world, give away pretty much all of its ill-gotten wealth etc. The Church should immediately stop sheltering child molesters and turn over all information it possesses on them as well as the child molesters themselves to secular authorities.

The Vatican should also stop laundering money for criminal organisations.

If the Pope wants the Church to be seen as something perpetuates of good then they need to stop engaging in evil.
 

James Lyon

New Member
I agree with the Scotsman, also his apology for homosexual child molestation's in his church for generations is an open admittance. An open apology where by is an ownership of the responsibility of his position but it is only words. When he takes action in the movement of all human rights and protection of children to never be treated this way by any members of his church or any other entity with be when he has a right to speak about homosexuality.The fact that homo-sex pedophilia had been practiced by the catholic leaders trumps right place on merely speaking words on the subject. He must act on it or he is just muttering under his breath.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Words are cheap. If Francis means it then he needs to tell dioceses and parishes around the globe to stop doing things like campaigning against marriage equality, preventing LGBTs being able to adopt from Catholic agencies, spreading misinformation and outright lies against condoms and other methods of contraception, stop teaching that women brought sin into the world, give away pretty much all of its ill-gotten wealth etc. The Church should immediately stop sheltering child molesters and turn over all information it possesses on them as well as the child molesters themselves to secular authorities.

The Vatican should also stop laundering money for criminal organisations.

If the Pope wants the Church to be seen as something perpetuates of good then they need to stop engaging in evil.
Shhhh don't spoil the progressive Pope narrative.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I actually don't look forward to going back to church because of this. It's human beings who are ruining it for me and who are driving others away.

Hey Frank, this is a bit of a derail question, so feel free to ignore, or PM or whatever, but this made me curious.
Whilst I can see spirituality and belief, etc, as existing regardless of people, isn't the church basically people? A church without human beings is no longer a church, no longer a religion...
I guess for me I've never quite understood why you hang on to the Catholic Church (quite apart from why you believe in Christ as saviour, etc, which is somewhat understandable to me).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Whilst I can see spirituality and belief, etc, as existing regardless of people, isn't the church basically people? A church without human beings is no longer a church, no longer a religion...

That is a good point, but there's a different way of looking at this than what your conclusion is. Let me use my quite devout Catholic wife as an example.

During the peak of the pedophile controversy that occurred under the last Pope, my wife stopped going to mass for about two months, she was so upset. But near the end of that period, I could tell she was just torn by what her head was telling her (leave) versus what her heart was telling her (stay). So, I as a non-Catholic and non-Christian threw in my two cents.

What I told her is that the "church" is not the building, not the clergy, not the Pope, but is a large body that goes well beyond any of them individually. And as long as there are humans in the church, including the leadership, there's going to be problems, both intentional and unintentional. These mistakes should not by themselves force anyone to abandon their faith.

IOW, there are no perfect churches, no perfect leaders, and no perfect congregants. Even the early church under the apostles had problems, including with some of the apostles themselves (Judas, Thomas, and Peter's denial, for examples).

So, for once :rolleyes:, she took my advice and went back, and I with her as a non-participating observer, and she's got a much better attitude now. And, btw, she loves this Pope.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Hey Frank, this is a bit of a derail question, so feel free to ignore, or PM or whatever, but this made me curious.
Whilst I can see spirituality and belief, etc, as existing regardless of people, isn't the church basically people? A church without human beings is no longer a church, no longer a religion...
I guess for me I've never quite understood why you hang on to the Catholic Church (quite apart from why you believe in Christ as saviour, etc, which is somewhat understandable to me).
Nevermind. Catholicism really doesn't suit me. I need to stop trying to force myself to be something I'm not for emotional reasons.
 
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