Police & Guns

[Mycroft]

Here's a man from the UK wielding a knife. Police officers manage to subdue him without using any guns:

Again, here's a man armed with TWO knives. He wasn't shot by the police:

Meanwhile in America:

and

What do you think? Were the guns really justified? Do you not think the US Police could have used their tasers instead?

 

[psychoslice]

You will neve know until you have become a cop, I myself have been shot by someone along a highway just out of my town, and I can tell you that it wasn't a great experience, now put yourself into a cops shoes, and imagine someone wanting to shot you, what the hell would you do, and this goes for any dangerous situation in being a cop, yea don't judge until you have walked in their shoes.

 

[Neo Deist]

Allow me (I am a cop)...

1. Tasers: the max range of a taser is usually less than 21 feet. Tasers that are used by LEOs fire two small barbs into the target, and those barbs are attached by a thin wire. Electricity courses through that wire and into the target, thus causing incapacitation...in theory.

In reality, if a cop misses with one of the barbs, the taser does nothing to the target...at which point the cop gets stabbed/cut/killed. If the barbs do not have enough of a spread between them, the taser will not incapacitate the target, only infuriate, and the cop gets stabbed/cut/killed. If one of the wires break as the target falls to the ground, the taser stops working and the target is able to immediately jump back up, and the cop gets stabbed/cut/killed. Hollywood movies make people think that being tased = being knocked unconscious. That is pure BS.

Tasers combined with mace is a no-no. While the mace itself is not flammable, the propellant can be. If one cop is trying to mace and another is trying to use a taser, you can actually set the target on fire. That is why cops are taught to yell "TASER!!!"

Some people are just insane (drug induced or otherwise) and non-lethal options such as a taser or mace have zero affect on them. Some subjects have yanked the taser barbs out of their skin while the electricity was flowing...now what?

2. There is a "reactionary gap" that cops are taught. If someone is 21 feet away from you and they charge you, you have less than 2 seconds to react before they are on top of you. We do this in training with rubber knives and simunition rounds. Most trainees are taken by surprise when they are "stabbed" by an attacker who started less than 21 feet away, before they could react. This is in a "I know it is coming" scenario. On the streets, it is far different as you never know what is going to happen. Panic and/or disbelief can make you forget everything you were taught.

3. US cops wear body armor that is designed to stop bullets. The same vests do not stop knives. UK cops wear body armor that is designed to stop knives.

4. If you don't want to get shot by the cops, don't do stupid (insert explicative).

 

[psychoslice]

Allow me (I am a cop)...

1. Tasers: the max range of a taser is usually less than 21 feet. Tasers that are used by LEOs fire two small barbs into the target, and those barbs are attached by a thin wire. Electricity courses through that wire and into the target, thus causing incapacitation...in theory.

In reality, if a cop misses with one of the barbs, the taser does nothing to the target...at which point the cop gets stabbed/cut/killed. If the barbs do not have enough of a spread between them, the taser will not incapacitate the target, only infuriate, and the cop gets stabbed/cut/killed. If one of the wires break as the target falls to the ground, the taser stops working and the target is able to immediately jump back up, and the cop gets stabbed/cut/killed. Hollywood movies make people think that being tased = being knocked unconscious. That is pure BS.

Tasers combined with mace is a no-no. While the mace itself is not flammable, the propellant can be. If one cop is trying to mace and another is trying to use a taser, you can actually set the target on fire. That is why cops are taught to yell "TASER!!!"

Some people are just insane (drug induced or otherwise) and non-lethal options such as a taser or mace have zero affect on them. Some subjects have yanked the taser barbs out of their skin while the electricity was flowing...now what?

2. There is a "reactionary gap" that cops are taught. If someone is 21 feet away from you and they charge you, you have less than 2 seconds to react before they are on top of you. We do this in training with rubber knives and simunition rounds. Most trainees are taken by surprise when they are "stabbed" by an attacker who started less than 21 feet away, before they could react. This is in a "I know it is coming" scenario. On the streets, it is far different as you never know what is going to happen. Panic and/or disbelief can make you forget everything you were taught.

3. US cops wear body armor that is designed to stop bullets. The same vests do not stop knives. UK cops wear body armor that is designed to stop knives.

4. If you don't want to get shot by the cops, don't do stupid (insert explicative).

You are a good cop, but sadly there are ******* cops also.

 

[Neo Deist]

You are a good cop, but sadly there are ******* cops also.

Thanks and yes there are. But that is not a cop thing, that is a human thing. There are ******** in every profession.

 

[psychoslice]

Thanks and yes there are. But that is not a cop thing, that is a human thing. There are ******** in every profession.

Yes you are right there is, and I wish most would understand that, I wanted to be a cop in my early life, but sadly I got shot by some one, and that ended that dream, I think you are lucky that you become a cop, I take my hate off to you my friend.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hey @Deist Mentor why are US vests not knife resistant but UK ones are?
Does that mean there are other aspects where the US ones are better or is it some sort of cheaper version??

Sorry, question out of ignorance. Don't know much about protective vests.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Cops here use pepper spray and there are some scary vids floating around of how much is dometimes required to take down a target, especially in wind/rain/drug effected.

Also heard tasers can be lethal to people with heart conditions, pace makers, etc.

Suspect some risk in police being more used to using non-lethal force and then finding out it can be lethal.

 

[psychoslice]

Cops here use pepper spray and there are some scary vids floating around of how much is dometimes required to take down a target, especially in wind/rain/drug effected.

Also heard tasers can be lethal to people with heart conditions, pace makers, etc.

Suspect some risk in police being more used to using non-lethal force and then finding out it can be lethal.

Well maybe people should do the right thing and not get involved in anything that they cannot handle, if you cannot handle pepper spray, then don't !!.

 

[Neo Deist]

Hey @Deist Mentor why are US vests not knife resistant but UK ones are?
Does that mean there are other aspects where the US ones are better or is it some sort of cheaper version??

Sorry, question out of ignorance. Don't know much about protective vests.

It is the design of the vests. To stop a bullet, the fibers (Kevlar) have to be cross woven and layered. They are designed to spread the bullet out over a larger area in order to dissipate the energy that bullet carries when it is fired, as well as not allowing penetration into the body. A knife blade/tip is much thinner and can slip between the Kevlar fibers, thus cutting/stabbing the flesh below.

Bullets carry large amounts of energy with them when they are fired. Not only does a bullet punch holes in the target (causing bleed out and/or organ destruction) but the energy dumped can cause massive damage. A 9mm round traveling 1,200fps and immediately stopping when it hits an object has to dump its energy somewhere. If that energy continues to travel in a straight line (through the target) it can be lethal.

A bullet proof vest is a "loose weave" of Kevlar, allowing the vest fibers to flex and absorb the impact. A knife vest has a "tight weave" of fibers, thus stopping the blade from penetrating.

Yes there are vests that can stop both types of weapons, but they are ungodly heavy (and hot!!!) and not suitable for wearing all day during a 8/10/12 hour shift.

 

[Curious George]

Here's a man from the UK wielding a knife. Police officers manage to subdue him without using any guns:

Again, here's a man armed with TWO knives. He wasn't shot by the police:

Meanwhile in America:

and

What do you think? Were the guns really justified? Do you not think the US Police could have used their tasers instead?

Could cops have reacted differently? I guess that could always be argued, but if someone is threatening their life I certainly don't think disabling them from using deadly force is warranted.

If you want to argue for more training for our officers I would support that, if you are suggesting that our standard of evaluation ought to be "what, in hindsight, was the least force necessary to control the situation" and make that the threshold, I would disagree.

 

[psychoslice]

Don't pick on cops until you have walked in their shoes.

 

[Curious George]

Don't pick on cops until you have walked in their shoes.

I don't think anyone is picking on cops. Cops enjoy great leeway in court systems and in investigation. But this does not mean they should not be scrutinized. We grant police great authority, and that grant can only exist when coupled with strong scrutiny.

 

[psychoslice]

I don't think anyone is picking on cops. Cops enjoy great leeway in court systems and in investigation. But this does not mean they should not be scrutinized. We grant police great authority, and that grant can only exist when coupled with strong scrutiny.

Yeas cops do a great job, and where the hell would we do without them !!.

 

[Neo Deist]

I don't think anyone is picking on cops. Cops enjoy great leeway in court systems and in investigation. But this does not mean they should not be scrutinized. We grant police great authority, and that grant can only exist when coupled with strong scrutiny.

We get "second guessed" all the time. We are expected to deal with crazy person X who is high on PCP and impervious to pain, but when we have to shoot them in order to stop a violent threat, the public jumps up and down and cries foul. The Court of Public Opinion weighs in and everyone "thinks" they know what should have been done. The problem is that they were not there, and they were not faced with a 1 second split decision to shoot or don't shoot, before crazy person X cut a kid's throat.

Are there corrupt cops? Yes. Should they be prosecuted? Yes.

 

[Laika]

2. There is a "reactionary gap" that cops are taught. If someone is 21 feet away from you and they charge you, you have less than 2 seconds to react before they are on top of you. We do this in training with rubber knives and simunition rounds. Most trainees are taken by surprise when they are "stabbed" by an attacker who started less than 21 feet away, before they could react. This is in a "I know it is coming" scenario. On the streets, it is far different as you never know what is going to happen. Panic and/or disbelief can make you forget everything you were taught.

Thanks for this. Thats a really fascinating insight. it just humanises "Cops" and the mistakes (which I'm sure get disproprtinate publicity) as its often difficult to see beyond the Uniform.

 

[psychoslice]

We get "second guessed" all the time. We are expected to deal with crazy person X who is high on PCP and impervious to pain, but when we have to shoot them in order to stop a violent threat, the public jumps up and down and cries foul. The Court of Public Opinion weighs in and everyone "thinks" they know what should have been done. The problem is that they were not there, and they were not faced with a 1 second split decision to shoot or don't shoot, before crazy person X cut a kid's throat.

Are there corrupt cops? Yes. Should they be prosecuted? Yes.

I respect you totally.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It is the design of the vests. To stop a bullet, the fibers (Kevlar) have to be cross woven and layered. They are designed to spread the bullet out over a larger area in order to dissipate the energy that bullet carries when it is fired, as well as not allowing penetration into the body. A knife blade/tip is much thinner and can slip between the Kevlar fibers, thus cutting/stabbing the flesh below.

Bullets carry large amounts of energy with them when they are fired. Not only does a bullet punch holes in the target (causing bleed out and/or organ destruction) but the energy dumped can cause massive damage. A 9mm round traveling 1,200fps and immediately stopping when it hits an object has to dump its energy somewhere. If that energy continues to travel in a straight line (through the target) it can be lethal.

A bullet proof vest is a "loose weave" of Kevlar, allowing the vest fibers to flex and absorb the impact. A knife vest has a "tight weave" of fibers, thus stopping the blade from penetrating.

Yes there are vests that can stop both types of weapons, but they are ungodly heavy (and hot!!!) and not suitable for wearing all day during a 8/10/12 hour shift.

Thanks for taking the time...great explanation.

 

[Neo Deist]

Thanks for taking the time...great explanation.

NP...do it in court all the time.

 

[Curious George]

We get "second guessed" all the time. We are expected to deal with crazy person X who is high on PCP and impervious to pain, but when we have to shoot them in order to stop a violent threat, the public jumps up and down and cries foul. The Court of Public Opinion weighs in and everyone "thinks" they know what should have been done. The problem is that they were not there, and they were not faced with a 1 second split decision to shoot or don't shoot, before crazy person X cut a kid's throat.

Are there corrupt cops? Yes. Should they be prosecuted? Yes.

Lol, funny that court of public opinion. Sometimes it rallies for all sorts of bad policy.

Hopefully, we can limit the disturbance with rational discussion amongst those making policies and those interpreting policies. I understand that police officers get second guessed. But so do all employees of the city, state, or fed. I would say that of these politicians and teachers have it far worse than police officers with second guessing. Your point that these second guesses deal with high risk situations that need immediate decisions is well received. This is why the police deserve some leeway. Because we can sit in comfy chairs and make decisions that would theoretically be better after the fact, but that is not really the same. However, even with this leeway plenty of instances where the cop made an unreasonable decision, even in light of the situation, exist. Moreover, plenty of abuses of authority exist.

Some of these abuses are just good cops trying to get a hard job done. But the we only grant the police so much authority. That grant cannot be exceeded, even by well intended, upright, good police officers.