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Plans to plant billions of trees, fight climate change threatened by low seedling supplies

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
OK, so everything I'm saying is wrong and you're right. You and I don't change what's happening in the world, such as whether--
I never made such an idiotic claim, so your dishonesty is showing. Also, for you to claim that we have no effect on climate change is so nonsensical even a 5th grader should be able to see through it. Your know-it-all arrogance, at least on this, makes it all but impossible to have a serious discussion with you.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No, it would not.

A mere one hundred years ago still puts us in the post-colonial era of the United States, after which time there was extensive anthropogenic modification of the land.


When land managers and conservationists talk about restoration projects, they refer to these ecosystems as they were prior to the extreme anthropogenic modifications that followed colonization of the United States by Europeans. While we don't have the best documentation of what these forests were really like prior to the arrival of Europeans, we do know that forest cover in this country was vastly higher pre-colonization than it is today (or a century ago). Imagine basically everything east of the Mississippi as one big forest. That's what the historical forest cover was. It's nowhere near that today.


virgin-forests-cover-in-the-us-1-2048.jpg
There's an adage that a squirrel could travel from the Mississippi River to the Atlantic Ocean and never touch the ground.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There's an adage that a squirrel could travel from the Mississippi River to the Atlantic Ocean and never touch the ground.
It would have been interesting to see some of that lumber. Old Age Forests produce different lumber than young forests. The trees are competing all of their lives with other trees. The few trees that germinate and grow usually have one source of light and it is to grow straight up. They also grow much more slowly since there are so many trees competing for the available light. The same species of wood can look very different:


1691851949080.png


New growth softwood often has three to four growth rings per year verses eighteen upwards to thirty for old growth. The wood grain is exceptionally straight and not nearly as coarse as new growth. It has a simple beauty that has to be seen to be appreciated:

1691853018505.png

1691853131518.png


I cannot find any good examples of hardwood that is old growth. I am sure that some can be found in antique furniture but all of the examples I can find are of softwoods. Most old growth lumber that one sees today is either old or salvaged from older sources. In the lower forty eight there are almost no sources of it since it takes one hundred fifty years of more for a forest to get old enough to be "old growth". There are trees that are "poached" in the few old growth forests that remain:


It is a billion dollar a year industry. The problem with cutting down old growth stands is that they cannot be reproduced in a generation. Not two, not three. One hundred fifty years minimum is a long time to wait.



Then we have areas on the other end of the spectrum Some areas never hit old age as forests go. For example there are large parts of the Rockies where the predominant trees are Lodgepole Pines. They rely on regular forest fires. As the forest matures the forest becomes a fire hazard. Lodgepole pines are often found in forests where all of the trees are of the same size. The have evolved to take advantage of forest fires. There pinecones are heat resistant and do not open under normal conditions. The trees do not reproduce well without a fire. But burn a forest down and the pine cones open due to the heat. They are presented with an empty environment where they are the first and only trees growing:

 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
--and if I posted another "map" showing virtually no forests in 1620, would that make me right and you wrong? What can we agree on here. Do we agree that there were no satellite images available for 1620. That raises the question of just what is the map based on anyway? More questions follow changes in climate that would affect the existence/location of forest areas.
Are you coming out against planting trees? Trees store carbon pulled out of the atmosphere. 100 years ago, tree populations were the result of cutting them down the previous 300 or 400 years. We have fewer now than we did prior to European mass arrival.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It would have been interesting to see some of that lumber. Old Age Forests produce different lumber than young forests. The trees are competing all of their lives with other trees. The few trees that germinate and grow usually have one source of light and it is to grow straight up. They also grow much more slowly since there are so many trees competing for the available light. The same species of wood can look very different:


View attachment 80592

New growth softwood often has three to four growth rings per year verses eighteen upwards to thirty for old growth. The wood grain is exceptionally straight and not nearly as coarse as new growth. It has a simple beauty that has to be seen to be appreciated:

View attachment 80593
View attachment 80594

I cannot find any good examples of hardwood that is old growth. I am sure that some can be found in antique furniture but all of the examples I can find are of softwoods. Most old growth lumber that one sees today is either old or salvaged from older sources. In the lower forty eight there are almost no sources of it since it takes one hundred fifty years of more for a forest to get old enough to be "old growth". There are trees that are "poached" in the few old growth forests that remain:


It is a billion dollar a year industry. The problem with cutting down old growth stands is that they cannot be reproduced in a generation. Not two, not three. One hundred fifty years minimum is a long time to wait.



Then we have areas on the other end of the spectrum Some areas never hit old age as forests go. For example there are large parts of the Rockies where the predominant trees are Lodgepole Pines. They rely on regular forest fires. As the forest matures the forest becomes a fire hazard. Lodgepole pines are often found in forests where all of the trees are of the same size. The have evolved to take advantage of forest fires. There pinecones are heat resistant and do not open under normal conditions. The trees do not reproduce well without a fire. But burn a forest down and the pine cones open due to the heat. They are presented with an empty environment where they are the first and only trees growing:

Ya, here in Michigan we have plenty of both, and I have added to that as I planted quite a few more both here in the lower and also in da upper. My favorite here is what we call our "Yooper sprucer", which is a white spruce that we bought near our place in da U.P. We also have a sunburst locust and a huge ***** willow "shrub", viburnum, arctic willow, along with 2 Norway maples.

How about you?

Up at our place in da UP, we mostly planted white spruce and potentilla [native shrub].
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ya, here in Michigan we have plenty of both, and I have added to that as I planted quite a few more both here in the lower and also in da upper. My favorite here is what we call our "Yooper sprucer", which is a white spruce that we bought near our place in da U.P. We also have a sunburst locust and a huge ***** willow "shrub", viburnum, arctic willow, along with 2 Norway maples.

How about you?

Up at our place in da UP, we mostly planted white spruce and potentilla [native shrub].
I have a small lot in the city and have what appears to be a Yellow poplar or Tulip Tree. It was rather young when I bought the place the previous owner had planted that tree and a peach tree. A few years in the peach tree got sick and died within a year. The next year the same started to happen to my Tulip tree. When I removed the peach tree I found out why. When he bought the from the nursery there was some sort of metal strap around the base. Probably to hold on an ID tag. When the tree grew it choked to death on it. The Tulip tree was tougher. Though the existing tree died it had a couple of shoots that lived. It is now a rather good sized tree. I also have what appears to be a white pine, totally on my lot and there are some hemlocks on the border. These are all older trees. There are also some plum trees that appear to be half wild. Smaller plums and they are rather short threes. They have been here forever too.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have a small lot in the city and have what appears to be a Yellow poplar or Tulip Tree. It was rather young when I bought the place the previous owner had planted that tree and a peach tree. A few years in the peach tree got sick and died within a year. The next year the same started to happen to my Tulip tree. When I removed the peach tree I found out why. When he bought the from the nursery there was some sort of metal strap around the base. Probably to hold on an ID tag. When the tree grew it choked to death on it. The Tulip tree was tougher. Though the existing tree died it had a couple of shoots that lived. It is now a rather good sized tree. I also have what appears to be a white pine, totally on my lot and there are some hemlocks on the border. These are all older trees. There are also some plum trees that appear to be half wild. Smaller plums and they are rather short threes. They have been here forever too.
Do you mind me asken, which state?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Do you mind me asken, which state?
Oh, Washington. I have given that information out many times. I live in the city that has the world's largest building by volume. I was not impressed the first time went by it in a car. And then I realized that the little doors on it were for semis. That put it back into perspective.
 
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