"Northern Tradition Paganism"

[vaguelyhumanoid]

http://www.northernpaganism.org/general/index.html

Anybody familiar with this site? It espouses a branch of paganism, called "Northern Tradition", that worships the Norse gods in a context very different from traditional heathenry. This approach is way looser, more neopagan and arguably contains "left-hand path" traits. While the gods are Norse, the sources for practice are far more eclectic, with a "core shamanism" slant and elements taken from Finno-Ugric and Siberian sources. The focus is less on community and ancestors and more about an intimate, ecstatic personal experience of the gods. Along this vein, Northern Tradition paganism also can sometimes involve ceremonies with sexual and (consensually) sadomasochistic elements.

Finally, and perhaps most controversially, Northern Tradition Paganism is "Rökkatru". This means true to the gods of Ragnarök - in other words, jötuns such as Surtr or Fenrir who are presented as hostile to humanity and its gods. According to "NT Paganism", these beings were prehistoric gods of the wilderness & the underworld who were later vilified over the centuries. They basically say that if Greek pagans can worship both the Titans & the Olympians, why can't Norse pagans worship both the Æsir and their primordial foes?

Personally, I have mixed feelings about this movement and the people involved with it (seeming to mainly be Raven Kaldera & Galina Krasskova). I like their very egalitarian and ecological values, but they also often support practices like "godspousery" or what have you that seem dangerously escapist to me. Similarly, I would agree that the hostile beings in the Norse myths generally aren't "evil"; they just represent harsh, destructive aspects of nature and our psyche. Still, I wouldn't go inviting something like Nidhogg into my house. I guess my approach to the Norse pantheon has some "low-key" Northern Tradition elements, but mostly in the bounds of historically-informed Heathenry.

 

[Sees]

I think it's interesting for people more knowledgeable to take a look at the ideas and stuff on there but not a great thing for beginners.

It gives off the impression that it's not just coincidentally unique from honest thoughts, feelings, insights but intentionally for profitability.

You can find some gold nuggets just about anywhere though and if a person has some foundation it's not harmful, and certainly not wrong, to take a look-see.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Yeah, the heavy focus on shamanism is a bit convenient when you consider that the site creator (Raven Kaldera) is (iirc) a shaman-for-hire... They also get waay out there with UPG sometimes, such as the notion that there are nine animal-themed clans of jötunn (not even all Northern European animals) and Angrboða is the leader of the "wolf clan". Basically, all the lore interpretations should be taken with a grain of salt. However, I really like some of the e-shrines.

 

[Cassandra]

http://www.northernpaganism.org/general/index.html

Anybody familiar with this site? It espouses a branch of paganism, called "Northern Tradition", that worships the Norse gods in a context very different from traditional heathenry. This approach is way looser, more neopagan and arguably contains "left-hand path" traits. While the gods are Norse, the sources for practice are far more eclectic, with a "core shamanism" slant and elements taken from Finno-Ugric and Siberian sources. The focus is less on community and ancestors and more about an intimate, ecstatic personal experience of the gods. Along this vein, Northern Tradition paganism also can sometimes involve ceremonies with sexual and (consensually) sadomasochistic elements.

Finally, and perhaps most controversially, Northern Tradition Paganism is "Rökkatru". This means true to the gods of Ragnarök - in other words, jötuns such as Surtr or Fenrir who are presented as hostile to humanity and its gods. According to "NT Paganism", these beings were prehistoric gods of the wilderness & the underworld who were later vilified over the centuries. They basically say that if Greek pagans can worship both the Titans & the Olympians, why can't Norse pagans worship both the Æsir and their primordial foes?

Personally, I have mixed feelings about this movement and the people involved with it (seeming to mainly be Raven Kaldera & Galina Krasskova). I like their very egalitarian and ecological values, but they also often support practices like "godspousery" or what have you that seem dangerously escapist to me. Similarly, I would agree that the hostile beings in the Norse myths generally aren't "evil"; they just represent harsh, destructive aspects of nature and our psyche. Still, I wouldn't go inviting something like Nidhogg into my house. I guess my approach to the Norse pantheon has some "low-key" Northern Tradition elements, but mostly in the bounds of historically-informed Heathenry.

I agree that one should be very careful what spirits one wants to embrace. A spiritual person should at least sense what feels right and wrong. In the same way that when you walk into a bar and it does not feel right, you better leave. We should not start to glorify all spirits because they are Pagan. The ancient people were very cautious about awakening the wrong spirits, and only sought contact if they had to. They were very practical in their worship, and seeking to benefit from it. The bigger Gods were hardly worshipped by the Vikings. Contact with smaller useful spirits was more intense. In the same way that we would have close contact to colleagues and our direct chef than walk into the office of the highest boss.

We should not be led by monotheist ideas that bigger is better, and best God is the one that wins the battle. For our ancestors many spirits were like part of the family. The felt the spirits in beings and felt which ones were good and which one not. Like they intuitively felt which spirit was male and female. Today in many languages nouns still have gender because of this.

People seeing kicks in awakening spirits are not really spiritual and a danger to themselves. And if we make contact with spirits we should know what kind of qualities we want to use and make sure they are real virtues, not simply power or possession. Wild experiments with spirits are as dangerous as playing with chemicals whose properties we do not well understand.

In that sense one can say that monotheism is a far safer religion. So please be careful before you start to awaken old War Gods or you may end up as berserk as the berserkers. Spirits effect your mind/spirit. The Greeks would not worship Aries a lot even though they were often in war. He was a bit to blood thirsty for their taste and they preferred Athena for her more rational approach.

The older Gods of Nature were considered to be even more difficult to control. They were brought under control later by more civilized virtuous Gods, in the same way that we use our reason and values to control our outbursts of lower emotions.

In that sense worship of the main Gods of a very peaceful and civilized Nature religion like Hinduism is much safer than reviving the spirits of ancient war cults. Paganism allows a more direct connection with the spirits for good and for bad. It is true that Abrahamic religions often unjustly vilified the Gods of other peoples, and people heavily under the influence of monotheistic Gods are often not the most likeable people, but that does not mean their warnings are wrong.

In the same way awakening spirits in substances is hazardous too. Always be careful that you invoke beneficial more subtle spirits and use your good senses. Otherwise best to stay away from it all. Simply look at the accidents that come from playing with Quija boards and drugs. Do not mess with your own mind. Keep your own spirit clean.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I just wanted to throw this out here, if the DIR members don't mind: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3819.0

I'm aware of Raven Kaldera. He's a trans man and somewhat of a figure among trans men. His religious activities actually seem to be more or less a front for acting out his sadomasochistic fetishes, as he's heavily involved in BDSM. It seems like he's leading a cult more than anything else. Aside from that. he's basically making things up, appropriating and twisting indigenous traditions, abusing people and ripping people off. So I would strongly advise against looking to him as a source of information or inspiration. There are ways to incorporate the darker side of your spirituality into your path, including BDSM practices, in a safe way. But that is most definitely not doing it safely or even honestly. He is preying on emotionally vulnerable people. Beware.

 

[Jainarayan]

However, I really like some of the e-shrines.

I like the e-shrines too. I've gotten some good info from them, that is, unless it's UPG and MUS.

The site seems to be down today.

 

[Cassandra]

I just wanted to throw this out here, if the DIR members don't mind: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3819.0

I'm aware of Raven Kaldera. He's a trans man and somewhat of a figure among trans men. His religious activities actually seem to be more or less a front for acting out his sadomasochistic fetishes, as he's heavily involved in BDSM. It seems like he's leading a cult more than anything else. Aside from that. he's basically making things up, appropriating and twisting indigenous traditions, abusing people and ripping people off. So I would strongly advise against looking to him as a source of information or inspiration. There are ways to incorporate the darker side of your spirituality into your path, including BDSM practices, in a safe way. But that is most definitely not doing it safely or even honestly. He is preying on emotionally vulnerable people. Beware.

i would very much advise people with mental problems of any kind to stay away from spiritual practices. The sane and sound mind attracts different spirits than a weakened, instable, broken, even sick or insane minds.

I have seen that when people with mental problems get absorbed in spiritual practices it often harms them long term. They lose control over their moods, it creates all kind of delusions, creates anxieties and fears, and not having a clear judgement they easily fall prey to uncanny people who have even sicker minds and can smell a victim.

Incorporating the darker side of your spirituality into your path never is a good idea. This it not the side you want to develop at all. You may want to realize that in the mind everything feeds and grows on attention. Give it attention and it grows. The dark side is different than the light side, it naturally wants to grow and dominate and is difficult to control. Especially by people who feel this darker side. This is not something to play with. Do not try to look cool, stay away from the things that are harmful. Poisons of the mind are far more dangerous than poisons of the body.

People that are involved in these things and create cults do so because they themselves are under the influence of such spirits. Do not think they are strong people because they can invoke strong forces. They are like hard drug users having lost control over their measure. They go deeper and deeper and make victims by involving others with them. They are not in control, they are out of control. It is wishful thinking you can invoke and control the darker forces. With the light spirits it is just opposite, they leave you free, It is you who has to make them stronger in you.

Look at it this way. Trying to feel happy and free all the time is difficult as the positive spirits easily weaken if you do not reinforce them all the time. But no one has trouble keeping up his sadness, fear, jealousy, anger, resentment, uncertainty etc. In stead we find it difficult to shake them off. They easily take control of our mind. Those are the moods that will start to dominate if you give food to the darker side. If you are looking for more happiness, you should seek it elsewhere. If you are looking for kicks, that is where you find them, but kicks are the shortest happiness. Highs are naturally followed by a lows and long periods of numbness and reduced happiness. If you want kicks seek them in the real world in physical endeavours rather than in the mind.

Developing higher spirituality is nice if you can do it in the service of the other things in you life, like having better relations. But going into long trips in the spiritual world for its own sake, will have the opposite effect and make you withdraw from your normal environment.

Whatever you use, use it for your benefit. Doing stupid things for kicks will only cause you unhappiness later on. Invoking strong spirits will not make you strong. Strong you only become when you retain full control over the spirits. A smart person gathers good friends not bad friends.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Cassandra, I know it's not your intention but your latest post comes across as very ableist. I would be considered "mentally ill" - I have OCD and general anxiety. However, I've had an interest in spiritual and religious practices since I was 12 and exploring the paths I'm interested in helps bring guidance and stability in my day-to-day life. I'd like to know what you mean by "mental problems" and "spiritual practices" - I can see the value in your point if you mean that psychotic people shouldn't go around trying to summon demons or astrally project. However, if you mean that no one with any mental diagnosis should be allowed to do anything mystical ever, that sounds very patronizing and discriminatory. Most mentally ill people are fully capable of critical thinking and distinguishing fantasy from reality. Not everyone with mental health issues is delusional.

However, I can see the value in some of your other points. I do see some very escapist people crop up in the pagan community and it often troubles me. The most egregious was probably a blog on tumblr by someone claiming to be married to multiple gods and go on astral journeys every day. I want my practice to be life-affirming, not a retreat from or rejection of the material world.

And yes, I have certainly heard some horror stories about Raven Kaldera. He's definitely guilty of stealing and disrespecting some native practices. For instance, he claimed some sort of connection between the Lakota sun dance and the BDSM community, even though there is nothing sexual about the former. Using pain as a shamanic technique without a cultural context has the potential to be extremely harmful, especially when you factor in money. He seems to have the mindset that it's not cultural appropriation if you give it a Norse spin, which I'm not very comfortable with.

 

[Cassandra]

Cassandra, I know it's not your intention but your latest post comes across as very ableist. I would be considered "mentally ill" - I have OCD and general anxiety. However, I've had an interest in spiritual and religious practices since I was 12 and exploring the paths I'm interested in helps bring guidance and stability in my day-to-day life. I'd like to know what you mean by "mental problems" and "spiritual practices" - I can see the value in your point if you mean that psychotic people shouldn't go around trying to summon demons or astrally project. However, if you mean that no one with any mental diagnosis should be allowed to do anything mystical ever, that sounds very patronizing and discriminatory. Most mentally ill people are fully capable of critical thinking and distinguishing fantasy from reality. Not everyone with mental health issues is delusional.

However, I can see the value in some of your other points. I do see some very escapist people crop up in the pagan community and it often troubles me. The most egregious was probably a blog on tumblr by someone claiming to be married to multiple gods and go on astral journeys every day. I want my practice to be life-affirming, not a retreat from or rejection of the material world.

And yes, I have certainly heard some horror stories about Raven Kaldera. He's definitely guilty of stealing and disrespecting some native practices. For instance, he claimed some sort of connection between the Lakota sun dance and the BDSM community, even though there is nothing sexual about the former. Using pain as a shamanic technique without a cultural context has the potential to be extremely harmful, especially when you factor in money. He seems to have the mindset that it's not cultural appropriation if you give it a Norse spin, which I'm not very comfortable with.

Vaguelyhumanoid, if I hurt your feeling, I apologize. It is not meant to harm anyone, on the contrary, it is meant to keep from harm. Please read it in context, I was reacting to a previous post. If I write spiritual practices I mean practices invoking spirits that you do not really understand or are dark. I also mean one-sided practices forming your own spirit/mind.

It is no different than in the real world, stay away from bad company and do not lose yourself in things. A practice may be considered healthy in itself, but become harmful by wrong application or because the person has disabilities that make him vulnerable. For instance many sports are unfit if you have physical disabilities, and even though we make sport champions into hero's this kind of one-sided physical training is really an abuse and harmful for the body.

Before we start experimenting and self-medicating we may want to understand that in the old days deeper spiritual knowledge was kept secret for good reason. For instance Druids purposely did not write this knowledge down as it is easily abused by people who feel attracted to gain greater power, especially power over other people. And you will be surprised how much power such people can gather. You only have to look how leaders like Adolf Hitler mesmerized whole nations.

It does not depend on religion. The history of Christianity with its persecutions, tortures, genocides by religious people who engaged deeply in spiritual practices speaks volumes. And convents and monasteries were often not places where people got cured but developed mental problems, especially if they already had them before entering.

Nomen est omen. A name signifies something. You call yourself "vaguelyhumanoid". It tells me something about how you feel about yourself. I call myself Cassandra, that is the women that makes predictions that no one ever listens to.

If it sounds patronizing, remember it is only an opinion of someone who is a stranger. It should not bother you that much. We want to be sensitive to other peoples needs, but not sensitive to the hurt they cause us. If you have trouble distinguishing between who means well and who only makes you feel well, be extra careful.

We are sufferers in this world, and we all have our scars. That is why all seek healing. Knowing ones weaknesses is a great advantage, and it should not make us feel victims. After all most harm in this world is done without intent or control. If we can not desensitize ourselves to that, we suffer more than we need to. I wish you well.

 

[Riverwolf]

I liked Freyja's eshrine enough to light my own virtual candle for it (though a better picture could have been used for the eshrine's homepage). I'm not terribly bothered by the UPG since the site has a disclaimer on many pages and eshrines that basically declares the bulk of it as just that, and it can be a great source of inspiration and insight for people more interested in revivalism and mythological creativity.

But it's definitely NOT for beginners. Without having at least a foundational grasp of traditional Lore and Northern European history, it can be hard to distinguish that from UPG. This can be a huge problem when modern practices and beliefs get mistaken for historical ones, especially in America's largely historically-illiterate overculture. Take, for example, the fact that some of the eshrines emphasize a story where Oðinn rapes the giantess Rindr in order to father Váli, Baldr's avenger. When I actually looked into that, I determined that the only two sources which claim this (at least Wikipedia only cites two) aren't authoritative enough for this to be taken seriously. One is the Christian Gesta Danorum, and the other is an Icelandic poem that seems largely about something else entirely (and which I'm having trouble finding the actual text of. ) But a beginner, or someone not familiar with Lore and how to research it, might see that and think, "Oh, so Odin's a rapist? Well screw him and anyone who worships him, then!"

Let me tell you, the Woden I honor may be pretty nasty sometimes, but He's NO rapist.

We might have very little preserved of the pre-Christian Lore, but that doesn't mean we have to adhere to everything mentioned about the Gods by all sources from that general time period. Especially when it comes to Christian sources, a lot of what got written down is UPG; just because it's from a thousand years ago doesn't make it necessarily more or less authoritative than something modern. Since I'm a revivalist, seeking to revive the pre-Christian traditions into a modern religion for modern cultures and sensibilities, some gaps are better off being filled by modern UPG.

 

[Jainarayan]

Since I'm a revivalist, seeking to revive the pre-Christian traditions into a modern religion for modern cultures and sensibilities, some gaps are better off being filled by modern UPG.

BOOYAH!!! The gods are not stupid, nor stuck in the 10th century. I think they interact with us in thoroughly modern ways.

 

[Cassandra]

I liked Freyja's eshrine enough to light my own virtual candle for it (though a better picture could have been used for the eshrine's homepage). I'm not terribly bothered by the UPG since the site has a disclaimer on many pages and eshrines that basically declares the bulk of it as just that, and it can be a great source of inspiration and insight for people more interested in revivalism and mythological creativity.

But it's definitely NOT for beginners. Without having at least a foundational grasp of traditional Lore and Northern European history, it can be hard to distinguish that from UPG. This can be a huge problem when modern practices and beliefs get mistaken for historical ones, especially in America's largely historically-illiterate overculture. Take, for example, the fact that some of the eshrines emphasize a story where Oðinn rapes the giantess Rindr in order to father Váli, Baldr's avenger. When I actually looked into that, I determined that the only two sources which claim this (at least Wikipedia only cites two) aren't authoritative enough for this to be taken seriously. One is the Christian Gesta Danorum, and the other is an Icelandic poem that seems largely about something else entirely (and which I'm having trouble finding the actual text of. ) But a beginner, or someone not familiar with Lore and how to research it, might see that and think, "Oh, so Odin's a rapist? Well screw him and anyone who worships him, then!"

Let me tell you, the Woden I honor may be pretty nasty sometimes, but He's NO rapist.

We might have very little preserved of the pre-Christian Lore, but that doesn't mean we have to adhere to everything mentioned about the Gods by all sources from that general time period. Especially when it comes to Christian sources, a lot of what got written down is UPG; just because it's from a thousand years ago doesn't make it necessarily more or less authoritative than something modern. Since I'm a revivalist, seeking to revive the pre-Christian traditions into a modern religion for modern cultures and sensibilities, some gaps are better off being filled by modern UPG.

The problem with our sources is that Christianity had gone through exceptional length to destroy them. And what is left is often raped by them to give it a bad taste. This happens both intentionality and unintentionally. Christians learn such negative attitude towards paganism that it becomes almost normal to view things pagan in a negative light. Making Odin the highest and most wise God into a rapist is such a thing. That is really a vicious attack.

The good thing is that that as science progresses further many of these lies are coming to the surface and we get a better understanding of our ancestors, who where not the primitive barbarians they were made into by our religious colonizers. Their religions were far more developed than we often think by the scarce remains.

I was just reading:

I contend that “shamanism” is not a religion in itself but only a “configuration” within a religious system. This point is important because numerous scholars tend to reduce so-called “indigenous religions” to the category of “shamanism,” thereby depriving these religions of their individual identity. Instead, these religions ought to be recognized and analyzed as distinct systems of belief and practice, just as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism are. The paradigmatic post-colonial reduction of many indigenous religious systems to “shamanism” has created an impoverished view of religions that are no less complex and sophisticated than the so-called “Great Traditions.”

 

[Cassandra]

BOOYAH!!! The gods are not stupid, nor stuck in the 10th century. I think they interact with us in thoroughly modern ways.

True, the Gods are not dead. Even if people no longer worship them and forget their existence they are still active. What is lost is the spiritual connection that gives us the awareness and allow us to profit most from the connection. But as soon as the connection is restored it starts working again. It is like an apparatus that has become unplugged. The electricity is still there and used, but the apparatus no longer directly profits from it. But even if we no longer find the Gods, the Gods still find us and help us. They never leave us. That is why Pagans seek contact with their ancestral religions again.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Vaguelyhumanoid, if I hurt your feeling, I apologize. It is not meant to harm anyone, on the contrary, it is meant to keep from harm. Please read it in context, I was reacting to a previous post. If I write spiritual practices I mean practices invoking spirits that you do not really understand or are dark. I also mean one-sided practices forming your own spirit/mind.

It is no different than in the real world, stay away from bad company and do not lose yourself in things. A practice may be considered healthy in itself, but become harmful by wrong application or because the person has disabilities that make him vulnerable. For instance many sports are unfit if you have physical disabilities, and even though we make sport champions into hero's this kind of one-sided physical training is really an abuse and harmful for the body.

I would agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't invoke anything you don't know how to deal with. That is why I don't actively make offerings to Loki, even tho he fascinates me - I don't think that chaos and disruption is what I need in my life right now. I'm saying you should watch out with stigmatizing language like "broken" and try to avoid implications that people with mental disorders are spiritually or morally corrupted/lesser. That kind of thinking is unfortunately everywhere in our society; that's why I call it out. It's very easy to lapse into and in my worse moods I struggle with it myself.

Let me tell you, the Woden I honor may be pretty nasty sometimes, but He's NO rapist.

Agreed 100%. Oðinn was the god who drew me to Heathenry and that myth really disturbed me to hear about. It seemed the opposite of the Oðinn I felt called to - the god who is both masculine and feminine, who teaches us to be wise, hospitable and fight against wrongdoing. But it makes more sense when you find out that Saxo openly despised the old custom - I read an excerpt from his work where you can practically feel him sneering. IIRC the one Icelandic source that mentions the whole thing says that he seduced Rindr using magic, which is way more in-character with the other attested material.

 

[Cassandra]

I would agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't invoke anything you don't know how to deal with. That is why I don't actively make offerings to Loki, even tho he fascinates me - I don't think that chaos and disruption is what I need in my life right now. I'm saying you should watch out with stigmatizing language like "broken" and try to avoid implications that people with mental disorders are spiritually or morally corrupted/lesser. That kind of thinking is unfortunately everywhere in our society; that's why I call it out. It's very easy to lapse into and in my worse moods I struggle with it myself.

Luckily, I did not do that

You really do not have to tell me about your private life. I do not think it is a very good idea to get that personal on the Internet. Too many predators around that abuse that. They often start off themselves talking about personal problems to lure others to do the same. Converters often use that fishing technique to find people with problems. So lets not get personal but exchange views about things related to Paganism. That is what interests me. Loki is a fascinating God, what attacks you in Loki?

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Loki is very complex; he can change form and he encompasses male and female, jötunn and Æsir. He always disrupts/endangers himself and others and it always has a greater purpose. Only by making a bet with hostile giants did he get a wall built around Asgard and birth a steed for Odin. Only by shaving Sif's head did she come to wear hair spun of gold. Even the deeds he is called evil display positive consequences in the end. Baldr survives Ragnarok while trapped in Helheim, and rises to lead the next generation of gods. It's also important to note that while Loki is viewed as a liar, one of his most famous escapades is all about him revealing harsh truths about the other gods.

My understand (likely falling into the UPG category) is that Oðinn and Loki are blood brothers because their purpose is complimentary and closely related. Oðinn in the myths embodies the drive towards self-development, to undergo suffering, persevere and learn from the experience. Loki embodies the external circumstances that shake our lives up, challenge our expectations and generally pull the rug out from under us in a way that's ultimately for the better and can help us grow as people. For a mundane example, say you're looking for the keys you just lost and accidentally find your missing wallet (and then the keys show up too when you stop looking). On a personality level he's also endlessly clever and entertaining, but at the same time he's volatile and wounded. He's been thru a lot of hardship and is often outcast and distrusted. There have definitely been times where that resonates with me a lot.

 

[Riverwolf]

The problem with our sources is that Christianity had gone through exceptional length to destroy them. And what is left is often raped by them to give it a bad taste. This happens both intentionality and unintentionally. Christians learn such negative attitude towards paganism that it becomes almost normal to view things pagan in a negative light. Making Odin the highest and most wise God into a rapist is such a thing. That is really a vicious attack.

The good thing is that that as science progresses further many of these lies are coming to the surface and we get a better understanding of our ancestors, who where not the primitive barbarians they were made into by our religious colonizers. Their religions were far more developed than we often think by the scarce remains.

I was just reading:

Indeed.

...nevermind that "Shamanism" is something that is specific to Siberian peoples' traditions, and contrary to popular culture, has no meaning in other indigenous traditions.

Agreed 100%. Oðinn was the god who drew me to Heathenry and that myth really disturbed me to hear about. It seemed the opposite of the Oðinn I felt called to - the god who is both masculine and feminine, who teaches us to be wise, hospitable and fight against wrongdoing. But it makes more sense when you find out that Saxo openly despised the old custom - I read an excerpt from his work where you can practically feel him sneering. IIRC the one Icelandic source that mentions the whole thing says that he seduced Rindr using magic, which is way more in-character with the other attested material.

Yeah, though that would still qualify as rape, today. (Can't consent when under the influence). But if other medieval romance stories are anything to go by, such a thing might have been seen as more "scandalous" than "rape" by audiences back then.

Though I'm not sure the Woden I honor would do that, either, since He's one of the few Northern Gods I've seen who doesn't deal much in fertility. Sex just... doesn't seem a very high priority with Him.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Yeah, though that would still qualify as rape, today. (Can't consent when under the influence). But if other medieval romance stories are anything to go by, such a thing might have been seen as more "scandalous" than "rape" by audiences back then.

Though I'm not sure the Woden I honor would do that, either, since He's one of the few Northern Gods I've seen who doesn't deal much in fertility. Sex just... doesn't seem a very high priority with Him.

Exactly. It's not consensual from a modern perspective but when taken in the original cultural context the connotation is very different. It points to a god who's crafty, magical and at times deceitful rather than sexually violent.

It is a bit odd the way Odin simultaneously has a lot of sex in the myths and has nothing to do with fertility or sexual pleasure. Then again, the Wanderer has always been a bit of a strange fellow...

 

[Cassandra]

Exactly. It's not consensual from a modern perspective but when taken in the original cultural context the connotation is very different. It points to a god who's crafty, magical and at times deceitful rather than sexually violent.

It is a bit odd the way Odin simultaneously has a lot of sex in the myths and has nothing to do with fertility or sexual pleasure. Then again, the Wanderer has always been a bit of a strange fellow...

Mythological stories require a deeper understanding than for instance biblical moral texts. Especially creation myths are not moral texts, but rather try to explain the diversity of beings/phenomena we see in the world, sometimes by a union, sometimes by a asexual reproduction creating different manifestations of the same. If you call Odin a rapist, you are reading these texts with a Monotheist moral in mind that was never intended. Then Pagan creation stories become tales of rape and incest.

In Paganism Gods are very complex entities for several reasons. One is that they have different levels of manifestation. In creation stories they can be viewed as founding principles/forces. In the application of these founding principles in our lives the Gods take on a more personal character but differing according the field in which they are applied. Another thing often overlooked is that Gods in Paganism naturally evolve over time. As human civilization advances, Gods find new applications and advance with us. When the world is created they are raw forces of Nature. But in a cultured human being they become refined. Odin, whose anger is an expression of his energy, can translate in destructive energy in warriors without being destructive himself. But he can also be creative energy in poets.

 

[Riverwolf]

Exactly. It's not consensual from a modern perspective but when taken in the original cultural context the connotation is very different. It points to a god who's crafty, magical and at times deceitful rather than sexually violent.

It is a bit odd the way Odin simultaneously has a lot of sex in the myths and has nothing to do with fertility or sexual pleasure. Then again, the Wanderer has always been a bit of a strange fellow...

Hehe. That's what makes Him so fascinating.

Just His name alone is paradoxical in my mind. I conceive of Him as kinda broody, dark, and quiet. The type who only speaks when necessary and only the minimum required to get information across, but always in a beautiful and poetic manner. But to bear the name of Woden, to be full of wode, implies having uncontrolled, drunken, ecstatic rage.

He is certainly an embodiment of paradox.