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No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
According to Gospel

Jesus was well known in the vicinity of Jerusalem in the first decades of the CE. He had grown up in nearby Nazareth. He had preached to large crowds. He had been to parties with rich folks. He had healed desperately ill people, even after they died. Then He made a big altercation in the Temple. By the week of the Passion of Christ, many if not most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem knew about Him. Many knew Him by face. He had lots of followers, including The Twelve.

Then He did something that got Him the ire of the local Jewish authorities. Likely the big deal in the Temple, but who knows. They hired one of His own to turn Him in. They turned Him over to Pilate. Apparently the evidence was weak, Pilate tried to foist the problem off onto Herod. Herod wasn't buying it, so Pilate summarily ordered Jesus to be tortured and crucified, the way Jewish terrorists/ freedom fighters generally were at the time. He was scourged to within an inch of His life. Then dragged naked through the streets of Jerusalem on the busiest day of the year(last shopping day before Passover) , carrying His own execution device, then nailed to the Cross to die in front of God and everybody. Then a Roman stabbed Him with a spear.
There is also mention of a solar event and an earthquake strong enough to damage the Temple. But not all the gospel writers remember that.

If the story had ended there(as it did in the original version of the oldest gospel, Mark), nobody would remember. Jesus would be just another troublesome Jew executed by the Romans before they leveled the Temple, and kicked the Jews out of Judea. It happened often.

But the story goes on. Jesus reappeared a few days later. Better than new, only a few scars as proof that He actually was the one crucified last Friday. Thomas checked it out for himself.
Given the facts, the place and time, and human nature, there are a few things a rational observer would expect.
The first would be crowds. A bunch of people saw that Jesus guy dragged through the streets to His death. Then they spent the next couple of days eating and hanging out with family, as people do on holidays. So lots of people, regardless of how they viewed Jesus, knew about the events of Friday. Jesus, Alive!, would be a huge big deal. A secret like that cannot be kept. People would care, even if they didn't believe in the Trinity. And Jesus was around for almost 40 more days. Then He Ascended to Heaven. The crowds would be wild.
People would hang on His every Word. They would want to know everything possible about His prior life and lineage and teachings and Everything. The spot He was born, His girlfriends, the spot from which He ascended. .... People would have wanted to know everything. And would have done anything to please Him. Throw themselves against the Romans in His Name. Erect statues and monuments, take in His Holy Mother, follow The Apostles around insufferably, pass stories about seeing Jesus's own sandal once with my own eyes to the grandkids...

But none of that happened. Nothing. It is impossible to find a credible reference to Jesus's existence before the Jewish diaspora. The Romans didn't notice. The Jewish authorities didn't notice.
Hardly anyone remembered anything until Paul came along. By then, nobody even remembered where Jesus ascended. A few decades after that, people started writing things down. But the writings were vague, not terribly consistent, and extremely incomplete. The earliest ones were pretty barebones, later ones had lots more supernatural details. But there is nothing like accounts of Jesus and His story anything like contemporary with Jesus.
Nothing.
And here is the biggest gap of all. What did The Risen Lord teach, do, or say during the 40 Days? Did everyone just forget? Didn't they care? It is like Jesus went on vacation during the most momentous time He was on earth! He could have explained Trinitarianism. Produced a code of Christian behavior that would exclude the Crusades, EuroChristian colonialism, and slavery in the Americas.(just to name a few)
But none of that happened. Absolutely nothing of interest is recorded as happening during The Risen Christ's 40 days with us fallible humans.

The remarkable lack of historical evidence, when it should exist in piles, is why I doubt that the character in the New Testament is more than a legend created later, for the purposes of humans. Nothing to do with God.
Tom
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I certainly think Jesus was a real historical figure. There are various theories around on the Resurrection story and I can't tell you for certain what all exactly happened. Those scholars that study the historical Jesus are almost unanimous in their belief this Jesus story is based on a real person. As for your insufficient documentation claim, this was not a time of mass media and literacy. People then 'talked' but that leaves nothing for us now. I think Jesus existed but only a fraction of the story has gotten to us and of that we even have to judge likeliness of accuracy.
 

g2perk

Member
According to Gospel

Jesus was well known in the vicinity of Jerusalem in the first decades of the CE. He had grown up in nearby Nazareth. He had preached to large crowds. He had been to parties with rich folks. He had healed desperately ill people, even after they died. Then He made a big altercation in the Temple. By the week of the Passion of Christ, many if not most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem knew about Him. Many knew Him by face. He had lots of followers, including The Twelve.

Then He did something that got Him the ire of the local Jewish authorities. Likely the big deal in the Temple, but who knows. They hired one of His own to turn Him in. They turned Him over to Pilate. Apparently the evidence was weak, Pilate tried to foist the problem off onto Herod. Herod wasn't buying it, so Pilate summarily ordered Jesus to be tortured and crucified, the way Jewish terrorists/ freedom fighters generally were at the time. He was scourged to within an inch of His life. Then dragged naked through the streets of Jerusalem on the busiest day of the year(last shopping day before Passover) , carrying His own execution device, then nailed to the Cross to die in front of God and everybody. Then a Roman stabbed Him with a spear.
There is also mention of a solar event and an earthquake strong enough to damage the Temple. But not all the gospel writers remember that.

If the story had ended there(as it did in the original version of the oldest gospel, Mark), nobody would remember. Jesus would be just another troublesome Jew executed by the Romans before they leveled the Temple, and kicked the Jews out of Judea. It happened often.

But the story goes on. Jesus reappeared a few days later. Better than new, only a few scars as proof that He actually was the one crucified last Friday. Thomas checked it out for himself.
Given the facts, the place and time, and human nature, there are a few things a rational observer would expect.
The first would be crowds. A bunch of people saw that Jesus guy dragged through the streets to His death. Then they spent the next couple of days eating and hanging out with family, as people do on holidays. So lots of people, regardless of how they viewed Jesus, knew about the events of Friday. Jesus, Alive!, would be a huge big deal. A secret like that cannot be kept. People would care, even if they didn't believe in the Trinity. And Jesus was around for almost 40 more days. Then He Ascended to Heaven. The crowds would be wild.
People would hang on His every Word. They would want to know everything possible about His prior life and lineage and teachings and Everything. The spot He was born, His girlfriends, the spot from which He ascended. .... People would have wanted to know everything. And would have done anything to please Him. Throw themselves against the Romans in His Name. Erect statues and monuments, take in His Holy Mother, follow The Apostles around insufferably, pass stories about seeing Jesus's own sandal once with my own eyes to the grandkids...

But none of that happened. Nothing. It is impossible to find a credible reference to Jesus's existence before the Jewish diaspora. The Romans didn't notice. The Jewish authorities didn't notice.
Hardly anyone remembered anything until Paul came along. By then, nobody even remembered where Jesus ascended. A few decades after that, people started writing things down. But the writings were vague, not terribly consistent, and extremely incomplete. The earliest ones were pretty barebones, later ones had lots more supernatural details. But there is nothing like accounts of Jesus and His story anything like contemporary with Jesus.
Nothing.
And here is the biggest gap of all. What did The Risen Lord teach, do, or say during the 40 Days? Did everyone just forget? Didn't they care? It is like Jesus went on vacation during the most momentous time He was on earth! He could have explained Trinitarianism. Produced a code of Christian behavior that would exclude the Crusades, EuroChristian colonialism, and slavery in the Americas.(just to name a few)
But none of that happened. Absolutely nothing of interest is recorded as happening during The Risen Christ's 40 days with us fallible humans.

The remarkable lack of historical evidence, when it should exist in piles, is why I doubt that the character in the New Testament is more than a legend created later, for the purposes of humans. Nothing to do with God.
Tom
For someone that did not exist His story is being told even by those who hate Him. The proof is His words.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
For someone that did not exist His story is being told even by those who hate Him. The proof is His words.
The stories of Gandalf, Mohammed, Buddha, and Darth Vader are being told.
The question is "How much of the story is true and how much is fiction? "
Tom
ETA ~ I am reasonably confident that the Legend of Jesus is based on some truth. I have no real question about His existence~
 

g2perk

Member
The stories of Gandalf, Mohammed, Buddha, and Darth Vader are being told.
The question is "How much of the story is true and how much is fiction? "
Tom
ETA ~ I am reasonably confident that the Legend of Jesus is based on some truth. I have no real question about His existence~
All is true, but not all is literal.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
According to Gospel

Jesus was well known in the vicinity of Jerusalem in the first decades of the CE. He had grown up in nearby Nazareth. He had preached to large crowds. He had been to parties with rich folks. He had healed desperately ill people, even after they died. Then He made a big altercation in the Temple. By the week of the Passion of Christ, many if not most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem knew about Him. Many knew Him by face. He had lots of followers, including The Twelve.

Then He did something that got Him the ire of the local Jewish authorities. Likely the big deal in the Temple, but who knows. They hired one of His own to turn Him in. They turned Him over to Pilate. Apparently the evidence was weak, Pilate tried to foist the problem off onto Herod. Herod wasn't buying it, so Pilate summarily ordered Jesus to be tortured and crucified, the way Jewish terrorists/ freedom fighters generally were at the time. He was scourged to within an inch of His life. Then dragged naked through the streets of Jerusalem on the busiest day of the year(last shopping day before Passover) , carrying His own execution device, then nailed to the Cross to die in front of God and everybody. Then a Roman stabbed Him with a spear.
There is also mention of a solar event and an earthquake strong enough to damage the Temple. But not all the gospel writers remember that.

If the story had ended there(as it did in the original version of the oldest gospel, Mark), nobody would remember. Jesus would be just another troublesome Jew executed by the Romans before they leveled the Temple, and kicked the Jews out of Judea. It happened often.

But the story goes on. Jesus reappeared a few days later. Better than new, only a few scars as proof that He actually was the one crucified last Friday. Thomas checked it out for himself.
Given the facts, the place and time, and human nature, there are a few things a rational observer would expect.
The first would be crowds. A bunch of people saw that Jesus guy dragged through the streets to His death. Then they spent the next couple of days eating and hanging out with family, as people do on holidays. So lots of people, regardless of how they viewed Jesus, knew about the events of Friday. Jesus, Alive!, would be a huge big deal. A secret like that cannot be kept. People would care, even if they didn't believe in the Trinity. And Jesus was around for almost 40 more days. Then He Ascended to Heaven. The crowds would be wild.
People would hang on His every Word. They would want to know everything possible about His prior life and lineage and teachings and Everything. The spot He was born, His girlfriends, the spot from which He ascended. .... People would have wanted to know everything. And would have done anything to please Him. Throw themselves against the Romans in His Name. Erect statues and monuments, take in His Holy Mother, follow The Apostles around insufferably, pass stories about seeing Jesus's own sandal once with my own eyes to the grandkids...

But none of that happened. Nothing. It is impossible to find a credible reference to Jesus's existence before the Jewish diaspora. The Romans didn't notice. The Jewish authorities didn't notice.
Hardly anyone remembered anything until Paul came along. By then, nobody even remembered where Jesus ascended. A few decades after that, people started writing things down. But the writings were vague, not terribly consistent, and extremely incomplete. The earliest ones were pretty barebones, later ones had lots more supernatural details. But there is nothing like accounts of Jesus and His story anything like contemporary with Jesus.
Nothing.
And here is the biggest gap of all. What did The Risen Lord teach, do, or say during the 40 Days? Did everyone just forget? Didn't they care? It is like Jesus went on vacation during the most momentous time He was on earth! He could have explained Trinitarianism. Produced a code of Christian behavior that would exclude the Crusades, EuroChristian colonialism, and slavery in the Americas.(just to name a few)
But none of that happened. Absolutely nothing of interest is recorded as happening during The Risen Christ's 40 days with us fallible humans.

The remarkable lack of historical evidence, when it should exist in piles, is why I doubt that the character in the New Testament is more than a legend created later, for the purposes of humans. Nothing to do with God.
Tom
The problem, I think, is that you are trying to establish the non-existence of Jesus by first establishing the celebrity of Jesus. It is, in fact pretty darned unlikely that the real Jesus (and I think that there was one) was particularly well-known in and around Judea. Much of what's written in the Gospels can be explained as accumulated mythologing of a few stories, passed on for decades until finally written down. And the likelihood is not very much of that really happened. Dead people don't get up and walk out of graves. Demons don't find their way into pigs and thus over cliffs. How many stories have come down in anybody's own family about "strange Uncle Bob," that have been exaggerated over time until Uncle Bob becomes larger than his own life?

That stuff happens, and it is an essential part of our human nature to do it.

So if there were not stadia full of groupies hanging on his every word while he was alive, who's to be surprised? And if they didn't write about their experiences in their dairies, why would that shock us? (And why would expect the diaries of non-entities to survive, anyway, when very little else did?)
 

g2perk

Member
Exactly.
Just as the stories about other legendary figures are, good fiction is "truer than true".
There is often more deep meaning in a well done piece of fiction than a news report.
Tom
The difference between Jesus Christ and others is simple to believers but mind blowing to unbelievers. Jesus wants his children to KNOW him first, then know his word. You can read that bible until you are blue in the face and never understand it. Its only when you have a relationship with the almighty, He will give you understanding of His word.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The difference between Jesus Christ and others is simple to believers but mind blowing to unbelievers. Jesus wants his children to KNOW him first, then know his word. You can read that bible until you are blue in the face and never understand it. Its only when you have a relationship with the almighty, He will give you understanding of His word.
This is going to require another thread (forthcoming), but how exactly would you describe this "relationship?" How many of the interactions (because all relations must of necessity interact) can you really describe as occurring outside the privacy of your own imagination?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So do I. That's why I made the distinction between Jesus and "the character in the New Testament "
Tom
Oh, that wasn't clear in what I read. But anyway, whatever exactly happened may be lost to time but I don't see the details mattering to me. I think the key point is his message of love of God and brotherly love and the gist of those teachings I believe came from the historical Jesus. My personal opinion is that Jesus was a great spiritual being and teacher.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The Gospels are proof Jesus existed, Billions of Christians is proof too. The Bible is the greatest selling Book in human history. Movies, books written about just the Gospels.

It's just too obvious to question. The Quran is another Book, authentic, which records Jesus life.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The Gospels are proof Jesus existed, Billions of Christians is proof too. The Bible is the greatest selling Book in human history. Movies, books written about just the Gospels.
You might have that much faith in humans. I don't. I don't care how many people believe something implausible and poorly evidenced.
Which is what my OP was about. The remarkable lack of evidence.
By "proof", what I mean is compelling evidence. The Bible is so lacking I find the lack of evidence "compelling evidence ".
It's just too obvious to question.
No it isn't.
For most of human history, a flat earth with the sun revolving around it was "too obvious to question ". And totally wrong.
Just because something is obvious to people who prefer to believe and not question doesn't make it true.
Quite the opposite, that is a hallmark of ignorant falsehoods that work for some people.
The Quran is another Book, authentic, which records Jesus life.
The Quran isn't any more credible than the Gospels, but it isn't the subject of this thread.
Tom
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't think we have any evidence whatsoever of a historical Jesus. Quite on the contrary.

The birth is all but stated outright as a fictional event, complete with stars on the sky that somehow mark specific places over land, mythical parenting and prophecies.

He vanishes from sight entirely for more than twenty years and yet the narrative simply knows somehow that it is the same person.

And then he begins to work literal miracles and supposedly ressurrects and is ascended to the heavens after his death.

Really?

No, I never saw any reason to think of Jesus as having even a core of a historical person. I'm puzzled as to why anyone would.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
The Gospels are proof Jesus existed, Billions of Christians is proof too.

Billions of Star Wars fans do not make those characters real.

It's just too obvious to question.

There is nothing obvious about virgin births, defying gravity and returning to life. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and in this case, basic, ordinary evidence is lacking. Someone said "If you believe in a Virgin Mary, you will believe in anything". It is a just a different level of credulity that I cannot understand.

The Quran is another Book, authentic, which records Jesus life.

Do you know for a fact that the Quran author did not get his account of Jesus from the Bible - like everyone else did?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hate?

Disbelief is not hatred. Besides, to hate someone implies you believe in their existence.

The words only prove that someone authored them at some point. No more, no less.
Amazing how disbelief turns into hate. It's magic.

On a serious note, the furthest I'll go is to say I don't actually know. 99% of the time I think there was no such person, but there could have been. Not that any of it matters to non-Christians. Certainly not worth fighting over.
 
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