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Islam as a dangerous bet with no return

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
As of late I have come to feel that the religion of Islam is ultimately very dangerous in an usually well-meaning way.

While it is very plain that most Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning, very honest people, it is just as obvious that Muslim cultures just aren't well equiped to deal with questioning of the Quran and of tradition.

It is almost embarrassing at times, when one realizes that at least some Muslims sincerely do believe that deep down we are in awe of the Quran, in denial of our supposed deep knowledge that there is a creator God, in flippant or proud defiance of the divine disapproval of homosexuality.

There is a whole lot of belief floating up there, and far too little acceptance of things as they are.

In a way it is much like passive-aggressive manipulation.

When a Muslim fails to accept that there are indeed misguided theists and well-meaning atheists, that no one needs to justify themselves to the Quran or to God, it is his or her own problem... except that it may very easily become someone else's, even everyone else's problem.

People have needs and expectations. They need land to live in, political structures to make decisions on their behalf, mutual cooperation in order to have a measure of stability and security.

It is a sublime yet rather fragile weave of mutual cooperation, all too easily perverted, neglected or corrupted, as we all can tell. And it is particularly vulnerable to people with a sincere yet fragile belief that forces others to become either their subjects or their challengers.

Which, I have come to realize, is all too often exactly the role that Muslims impose upon themselves, apparently because for the most part they have never really learned other ways of living, and may well have been raised into an instinctive rejection of even considering anything else.

Dealing constructively with such a situation is possible, yet unavoidably challenging. We must walk a rather narrow path that exists in the intersection of the firm decision to be respectful of people who usually mean well and are nearly always just taken by fear of change when they do not and the solid acknowledgement that people are not always reasonable and may well do things that they would repent doing if they knew better.

In short, we must learn to respect them while at the same time refusing the continued, insistent, often sincerely unconscious invitations for us to submit to their self-imposed needs and expectations, from which they are basically unable of ever releasing us.

We must learn to be at ease challenging them quite consistently, quite fiercely in fact - because they are not truly equipped to accept anything more conciliatory without perceiving it as a prelude to subjugation. They seem to rarely ever learn any better. They are literally bred to believe that deep down we need or want to take refuge in the wisdom of the Quran and the grace of God, our own protests being supposedly evidence of how much patience they must have towards us, not of what we truly want or need.

It is very difficult to counter such a state of mind - which may well explain why Islam is such a demographic success despite what is, frankly, a rather disastrous theology and doctrine, far too often fully occupied with efforts to deny its own branches and sister faiths to make much if any advance in actual relevant religious matters such as nurturing brotherhood and other moral virtues.

But I digress. How should we deal with Muslims then? To the best of my knowledge, by exercising genuine respect and caring. It is very important not to attempt to deceive Muslims. There is very little hope of tricking Muslims out of their tendency of somewhat innocently perceive non-Muslims as lesser people, and it would (and historically was) very destructive to make such an attempt.

We must make every sincere effort to truly earn their respect and keep deserving it, even while making it abundantly clear that we are not Muslims-in-the-making, and in many cases are all too certain that we could never be. We must, as a matter of fact, leave them no choice but to respect us despite our often deep disagreements. We must suffer on their stead, take trouble for their well being, bleed for them, hunger for them, die for them if it comes to that. We must not only be certain that they are wrong in hoping for our collective need to ultimately submit to the Quran's authority, but actually win them over, if not to agreement, at least to genuine, earned respect.

True respect, that is. The one that arises not of cheap agreement of words, but often of showing the value of deeds over disagreements on esoterical matters of lesser importance such as, say, how many gods there are or fail to exist, who their prophets might be, which sexual ethics they might expect of people, how many hells do exist and how one gets assigned to them. All of those are petty distractions unworthy of anyone's attention. We should waste no time with such nuisances and care instead about true religion, true civilization, true human consideration. Once that is well established we might return to those matters if there is anything in there for us - which is not very likely at all, in my opinion.

Attaining such a difficult yet deeply rewarding feat, in and of itself, goes a long way towards lessening many of the dangers associated with Islam, and should be rewarding every step of the way.

It saddens me that instead we seem to be sliding gradually yet surely towards badly hidden hopes of scaring, overpowering, surviving or just blasting out of existence those who we have such a hard time dealing with.

That led to tragedy pretty much every single time in human history, and it is not at all likely to bring better results any time in the future.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
As of late I have come to feel that the religion of Islam is ultimately very dangerous in an usually well-meaning way.

While it is very plain that most Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning, very honest people, it is just as obvious that Muslim cultures just aren't well equiped to deal with questioning of the Quran and of tradition.
Peace be on you.
Is it the situation in Arab lands, which is making you feel like this? or anything special in your area?
As you also said, 'most Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning, very honest people'. It is good to read. Do not you give credit of it to their teaching? Since they are so good, why they should question their guide Quran and tradition.

One thinks, the terrorism by certain groups on the name of Islam is rightly worrying you, but as you noticed, many Muslims are still fine people. Let us hope they increase.




It is almost embarrassing at times, when one realizes that at least some Muslims sincerely do believe that deep down we are in awe of the Quran, in denial of our supposed deep knowledge that there is a creator God, in flippant or proud defiance of the divine disapproval of homosexuality.

There is a whole lot of belief floating up there, and far too little acceptance of things as they are.

In a way it is much like passive-aggressive manipulation.
Quran do not ask anything to do (or suppress certain feelings to be fit in good mode of life) which is the not of the good of individual or society.

When a Muslim fails to accept that there are indeed misguided theists and well-meaning atheists, that no one needs to justify themselves to the Quran or to God, it is his or her own problem... except that it may very easily become someone else's, even everyone else's problem.
Quran says everyone is free to believe whatever they like, no compulsion. But it tells its Judgment from Divine point of view, it is its right.

People have needs and expectations. They need land to live in, political structures to make decisions on their behalf, mutual cooperation in order to have a measure of stability and security.
Quran acknowledges all that, that why it has mentioned various systems of governments.
Ref: Page # 220 @ Islam's response to contemporary issues @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf

It is a sublime yet rather fragile weave of mutual cooperation, all too easily perverted, neglected or corrupted, as we all can tell. And it is particularly vulnerable to people with a sincere yet fragile belief that forces others to become either their subjects or their challengers.
In true Islamic eras, non-Muslim subjects asked Muslim rulers (who could not stay anymore) not to leave because of their nice conduct.
"" when a Muslim government, at one place, thought that they could not successfully defend against the Roman government, and decided to leave a captured territory where the majority of the people were Christians and Jews - the Christians and Jews of that territory got together and bid farewell to the Muslim army crying and weeping and said that we pray that you again capture this territory so that we may continue forever to benefit from your shade-giving and fruit laden tree. The facilities that you have provided, none of our governments were ever able to provide to us.
They valued those Muslims because with their faith, their every deed and action, was beneficent.""
Faith and Good Deeds

Which, I have come to realize, is all too often exactly the role that Muslims impose upon themselves, apparently because for the most part they have never really learned other ways of living, and may well have been raised into an instinctive rejection of even considering anything else.
If it is true, then how so many good Muslims are living in West? It is true certain uprising are seen in young Muslims these days, the solution is to check the Imams who are fueling such thoughts in young generations.

Dealing constructively with such a situation is possible, yet unavoidably challenging. We must walk a rather narrow path that exists in the intersection of the firm decision to be respectful of people who usually mean well and are nearly always just taken by fear of change when they do not and the solid acknowledgement that people are not always reasonable and may well do things that they would repent doing if they knew better.[/quote]

Solution @ Imams failing young Britons, says Ahmadiyya Muslim leader | World news | The Guardian

In short, we must learn to respect them while at the same time refusing the continued, insistent, often sincerely unconscious invitations for us to submit to their self-imposed needs and expectations, from which they are basically unable of ever releasing us.

We must learn to be at ease challenging them quite consistently, quite fiercely in fact - because they are not truly equipped to accept anything more conciliatory without perceiving it as a prelude to subjugation. They seem to rarely ever learn any better. They are literally bred to believe that deep down we need or want to take refuge in the wisdom of the Quran and the grace of God, our own protests being supposedly evidence of how much patience they must have towards us, not of what we truly want or need.

It is very difficult to counter such a state of mind - which may well explain why Islam is such a demographic success despite what is, frankly, a rather disastrous theology and doctrine, far too often fully occupied with efforts to deny its own branches and sister faiths to make much if any advance in actual relevant religious matters such as nurturing brotherhood and other moral virtues.

But I digress. How should we deal with Muslims then? To the best of my knowledge, by exercising genuine respect and caring. It is very important not to attempt to deceive Muslims. There is very little hope of tricking Muslims out of their tendency of somewhat innocently perceive non-Muslims as lesser people, and it would (and historically was) very destructive to make such an attempt.

We must make every sincere effort to truly earn their respect and keep deserving it, even while making it abundantly clear that we are not Muslims-in-the-making, and in many cases are all too certain that we could never be. We must, as a matter of fact, leave them no choice but to respect us despite our often deep disagreements. We must suffer on their stead, take trouble for their well being, bleed for them, hunger for them, die for them if it comes to that. We must not only be certain that they are wrong in hoping for our collective need to ultimately submit to the Quran's authority, but actually win them over, if not to agreement, at least to genuine, earned respect.

True respect, that is. The one that arises not of cheap agreement of words, but often of showing the value of deeds over disagreements on esoterical matters of lesser importance such as, say, how many gods there are or fail to exist, who their prophets might be, which sexual ethics they might expect of people, how many hells do exist and how one gets assigned to them. All of those are petty distractions unworthy of anyone's attention. We should waste no time with such nuisances and care instead about true religion, true civilization, true human consideration. Once that is well established we might return to those matters if there is anything in there for us - which is not very likely at all, in my opinion.

Attaining such a difficult yet deeply rewarding feat, in and of itself, goes a long way towards lessening many of the dangers associated with Islam, and should be rewarding every step of the way.

It saddens me that instead we seem to be sliding gradually yet surely towards badly hidden hopes of scaring, overpowering, surviving or just blasting out of existence those who we have such a hard time dealing with.

That led to tragedy pretty much every single time in human history, and it is not at all likely to bring better results any time in the future.
Are you living close to many immigrants from middle east who are not easily fitting in new places?
From Ahmadiyya Muslim understanding, true Islam respect others position while engage them in dialogue, our Lord of all humanity, please do not be so much worried.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Peace be on you.

Thanks.

Peace be on you, Dawud.

Is it the situation in Arab lands, which is making you feel like this? or anything special in your area?

It actually comes mostly from RF. From the most often seen attitudes and most often raised arguments.


As you also said, 'most Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning, very honest people'. It is good to read. Do not you give credit of it to their teaching? Since they are so good, why they should question their guide Quran and tradition.

That is exactly why they should question their guides and their traditions.

And why everyone else should as well.

Good people are not good because they are submissive and obedient, but rather because they have asked hard questions, learned hard answers, learned to deal with things as they are, earning their badly-needed wisdom.

One thinks, the terrorism by certain groups on the name of Islam is rightly worrying you, but as you noticed, many Muslims are still fine people. Let us hope they increase.

On that much we can agree.


Quran do not ask anything to do (or suppress certain feelings to be fit in good mode of life) which is the not of the good of individual or society.

Coming from you, I know that you speak quite sincerely.

I must still disagree, unfortunately.


Quran says everyone is free to believe whatever they like, no compulsion. But it tells its Judgment from Divine point of view, it is its right.

Of course, the Quran has the right to say what it does.

It is just as certain that I have the right to judge its message from what it is.


Quran acknowledges all that, that why it has mentioned various systems of governments.
Ref: Page # 220 @ Islam's response to contemporary issues @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf

I don't have much of an issue with that page ("No Outright Condemnation of Any Political System"), but I don't feel that it provides much of a reassurance or an answer to my worries either.

In true Islamic eras, non-Muslim subjects asked Muslim rulers (who could not stay anymore) not to leave because of their nice conduct.
"" when a Muslim government, at one place, thought that they could not successfully defend against the Roman government, and decided to leave a captured territory where the majority of the people were Christians and Jews - the Christians and Jews of that territory got together and bid farewell to the Muslim army crying and weeping and said that we pray that you again capture this territory so that we may continue forever to benefit from your shade-giving and fruit laden tree. The facilities that you have provided, none of our governments were ever able to provide to us.
They valued those Muslims because with their faith, their every deed and action, was beneficent.""
Faith and Good Deeds

Again, I don't particularly doubt that this happened at some point somewhere, but I fail to see how it makes what I see now any less relevant.

Islam as it presents itself in practice today seems sorely ill-equipped to deal with even itself, let alone the current political challenges.


If it is true, then how so many good Muslims are living in West?

Why, because they are well-meaning, sincere people. I question the wisdom of their doctrine, not the basic decency of the average Muslim.

It is true certain uprising are seen in young Muslims these days, the solution is to check the Imams who are fueling such thoughts in young generations.

I don't necessarily agree. But even if I did, checking the Imams in a legitimate way involves arising the questioning spirit of the Muslim communities, to the best of my understanding.

Dealing constructively with such a situation is possible, yet unavoidably challenging. We must walk a rather narrow path that exists in the intersection of the firm decision to be respectful of people who usually mean well and are nearly always just taken by fear of change when they do not and the solid acknowledgement that people are not always reasonable and may well do things that they would repent doing if they knew better.

Solution @ Imams failing young Britons, says Ahmadiyya Muslim leader | World news | The Guardian

I am sympathetic for Ahamadiyya Muslims, who I perceive as trying that much harder than most to live in peace with other people. I must nevertheless say that I don't share their faith that working at that level is fruitful, or even safe.

Are you living close to many immigrants from middle east who are not easily fitting in new places?

No. Not at all, really. Did I make it seem so?

Middle East immigrants nearby are few, although it is reasonably easy to find their descendants if one wants to find them. They tend to be fairly faithful to their traditions, living in a respectful but not very integrative way. We meet them most easily by seeking their commerce shops, which are often family businesses. There is a degree of language barrier, but hardly any hostility - at least from them towards "us". I can't swear they do not receive hostility, although I can say that I am not aware of any.

They are simply not a social problem worth of note. Not here in Brazil. Our troubles are many, serious, often worth of despair. What they are not is particularly related to Muslim, Arab, or Middle Eastern immigrants.

From Ahmadiyya Muslim understanding, true Islam respect others position while engage them in dialogue, our Lord of all humanity, please do not be so much worried.
I wish I could be satisfied with that. I know you mean well.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Thankyou, Luis, for this well thought-out essay.

I do feel that some progressive figures and organisations within Islam have a role to play in making it more compatible with peace, compassion and happiness for society.

Al-Fatiha Foundation, Muslims for Progressive Values, and a number of women, gay people and progressives who are imams and/or Islamic scholars. Exclusivism isn't universal within Islam, just massively widespread. Same with misogyny, homophobia, intolerance.

Having said that, there is already a lot of variation within Islam, and I don't think that by any means all Muslims who've spent much time around non-Muslims would be so exclusivist. Rather, they just wouldn't think about it.
 
Last edited:

leibowde84

Veteran Member
As of late I have come to feel that the religion of Islam is ultimately very dangerous in an usually well-meaning way.

While it is very plain that most Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning, very honest people, it is just as obvious that Muslim cultures just aren't well equiped to deal with questioning of the Quran and of tradition.

It is almost embarrassing at times, when one realizes that at least some Muslims sincerely do believe that deep down we are in awe of the Quran, in denial of our supposed deep knowledge that there is a creator God, in flippant or proud defiance of the divine disapproval of homosexuality.

There is a whole lot of belief floating up there, and far too little acceptance of things as they are.

In a way it is much like passive-aggressive manipulation.

When a Muslim fails to accept that there are indeed misguided theists and well-meaning atheists, that no one needs to justify themselves to the Quran or to God, it is his or her own problem... except that it may very easily become someone else's, even everyone else's problem.

People have needs and expectations. They need land to live in, political structures to make decisions on their behalf, mutual cooperation in order to have a measure of stability and security.

It is a sublime yet rather fragile weave of mutual cooperation, all too easily perverted, neglected or corrupted, as we all can tell. And it is particularly vulnerable to people with a sincere yet fragile belief that forces others to become either their subjects or their challengers.

Which, I have come to realize, is all too often exactly the role that Muslims impose upon themselves, apparently because for the most part they have never really learned other ways of living, and may well have been raised into an instinctive rejection of even considering anything else.

Dealing constructively with such a situation is possible, yet unavoidably challenging. We must walk a rather narrow path that exists in the intersection of the firm decision to be respectful of people who usually mean well and are nearly always just taken by fear of change when they do not and the solid acknowledgement that people are not always reasonable and may well do things that they would repent doing if they knew better.

In short, we must learn to respect them while at the same time refusing the continued, insistent, often sincerely unconscious invitations for us to submit to their self-imposed needs and expectations, from which they are basically unable of ever releasing us.

We must learn to be at ease challenging them quite consistently, quite fiercely in fact - because they are not truly equipped to accept anything more conciliatory without perceiving it as a prelude to subjugation. They seem to rarely ever learn any better. They are literally bred to believe that deep down we need or want to take refuge in the wisdom of the Quran and the grace of God, our own protests being supposedly evidence of how much patience they must have towards us, not of what we truly want or need.

It is very difficult to counter such a state of mind - which may well explain why Islam is such a demographic success despite what is, frankly, a rather disastrous theology and doctrine, far too often fully occupied with efforts to deny its own branches and sister faiths to make much if any advance in actual relevant religious matters such as nurturing brotherhood and other moral virtues.

But I digress. How should we deal with Muslims then? To the best of my knowledge, by exercising genuine respect and caring. It is very important not to attempt to deceive Muslims. There is very little hope of tricking Muslims out of their tendency of somewhat innocently perceive non-Muslims as lesser people, and it would (and historically was) very destructive to make such an attempt.

We must make every sincere effort to truly earn their respect and keep deserving it, even while making it abundantly clear that we are not Muslims-in-the-making, and in many cases are all too certain that we could never be. We must, as a matter of fact, leave them no choice but to respect us despite our often deep disagreements. We must suffer on their stead, take trouble for their well being, bleed for them, hunger for them, die for them if it comes to that. We must not only be certain that they are wrong in hoping for our collective need to ultimately submit to the Quran's authority, but actually win them over, if not to agreement, at least to genuine, earned respect.

True respect, that is. The one that arises not of cheap agreement of words, but often of showing the value of deeds over disagreements on esoterical matters of lesser importance such as, say, how many gods there are or fail to exist, who their prophets might be, which sexual ethics they might expect of people, how many hells do exist and how one gets assigned to them. All of those are petty distractions unworthy of anyone's attention. We should waste no time with such nuisances and care instead about true religion, true civilization, true human consideration. Once that is well established we might return to those matters if there is anything in there for us - which is not very likely at all, in my opinion.

Attaining such a difficult yet deeply rewarding feat, in and of itself, goes a long way towards lessening many of the dangers associated with Islam, and should be rewarding every step of the way.

It saddens me that instead we seem to be sliding gradually yet surely towards badly hidden hopes of scaring, overpowering, surviving or just blasting out of existence those who we have such a hard time dealing with.

That led to tragedy pretty much every single time in human history, and it is not at all likely to bring better results any time in the future.
I agree. There seems to be a misconception in Islam that tradition has inherent value.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hey Luis,

Very thoughtful. What's your take on the "culture vs. ideology" question that seems to come up as a defense so frequently? (My take is that we have to "give the ideology" a lot of credit/blame since we see similar attitudes spanning the globe, across many cultures.)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Bravo, Luis. I, for one, have watched with tremendous interest over the years as you have dealt honestly with trying to understand Islam. Your summation is top notch. Keep up the good work.

On a minor note: It should be remembered that DawudTalut is an Ahmadiyya Muslim and represents the thinking of a fraction of a fraction of the Muslim world.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
In short, we must learn to respect them while at the same time refusing the continued, insistent, often sincerely unconscious invitations for us to submit to their self-imposed needs and expectations, from which they are basically unable of ever releasing us.
^ that is an outrageous, disgusting, and condescending generalization.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Have you read any work by Mohammed Arkoun? He was against the idea of literalism and as the Quran as a direct product of God. This allowed him to talk about reform, modernization, etc as all the barriers which prevent it were no longer an issue.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It saddens me that instead we seem to be sliding gradually yet surely towards badly hidden hopes of scaring, overpowering, surviving or just blasting out of existence those who we have such a hard time dealing with.

That led to tragedy pretty much every single time in human history, and it is not at all likely to bring better results any time in the future.

Yes, well people feel justified in blasting the hell out of folks they feel morally superior to.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
By all means, convince me that it is so. I would love to learn that it is so.
May I ask how many Muslim sponsored interfaith events you've participated in?
And, again, what percentage of the millions of Muslims in the USA do you find guilty of issuing "invitations for us to submit to their self-imposed needs and expectations, from which they are basically unable of ever releasing us," and based on what evidence?
 
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