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Is Pantheism considered pagan?

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I was wondering why pantheism and panentheism has their own section. Are they not considered a type of paganism?
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why would they be? that would be like saying that Theism is Abrahamic. In my experience pantheists are more often *not* pagan. But that might depend on how you use the term, but if you define the term as self-identified, then I'd say that most pantheists are not pagan. In my experience pagans, neo-pagans, whatever, tend to be polytheistic.

Also crazy seeing another UU member here o.0
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes and no, but mostly no.

Both pantheism and panentheism (lower case) designate a theological approach, not a "type" of religion. As a theological approach, it is overwhelmingly common within Neopaganism, and in that sense, pantheism/panentheism can be said to be inherent to the movement. However, as a theological approach, no "type" of religion can own it, and pantheism/panentheism are indeed present in many different religious movements.

To make matters more complicated, there are also those who identify as Pantheist or Panentheist (proper case), which designates not simply a theological approach, but a more complete system of beliefs and practices (aka, a religion/spirituality). People who identify as Pantheist/Panentheist may or may not consider themselves Neopagan as well, and I think it's a good idea to respect that.

Ultimately, how we classify things is just so much maps of the territory. But as far as RF is concerned, it doesn't make sense to force pantheism/panentheism into the Neopaganism DIR when it is not a "type" of Neopaganism, and when many who do regard it as a type of religion do not identify as Neopagan.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Yes and no, but mostly no.

Both pantheism and panentheism (lower case) designate a theological approach, not a "type" of religion. As a theological approach, it is overwhelmingly common within Neopaganism, and in that sense, pantheism/panentheism can be said to be inherent to the movement. However, as a theological approach, no "type" of religion can own it, and pantheism/panentheism are indeed present in many different religious movements.

To make matters more complicated, there are also those who identify as Pantheist or Panentheist (proper case), which designates not simply a theological approach, but a more complete system of beliefs and practices (aka, a religion/spirituality). People who identify as Pantheist/Panentheist may or may not consider themselves Neopagan as well, and I think it's a good idea to respect that.

Ultimately, how we classify things is just so much maps of the territory. But as far as RF is concerned, it doesn't make sense to force pantheism/panentheism into the Neopaganism DIR when it is not a "type" of Neopaganism, and when many who do regard it as a type of religion do not identify as Neopagan.

Thanks!
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Is there non-pantheistic / non-panentheistic paganism? If so, how common and how well delimited is it?
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
Every panentheist I've ever known in the flesh was a Christian, not a Pagan. I've known pantheist Pagans. But I've known polytheist, agnostic and atheist pagans too. Indeed, if there is a default position on this question with the Neo-pagan sphere, I would hazard to guess that it is "who knows?" because I don't think this is something that everyone necessarily thinks about.

Unless you mean Pagan in the vaguer sense of "not orthodox Christian", in which case all pantheists are included by definition.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there non-pantheistic / non-panentheistic paganism?

To my mind, no. One of the things that really distinguishes Paganisms, Neo or otherwise, from other world religious traditions is that it doesn't put a wedge between the gods and the world (or "creator" and "creation"); the theology is thoroughly immanent.

That said, Paganism, Neo or otherwise, is notoriously difficult to define, and people argue about how to define it endlessly.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
Every panentheist I've ever known in the flesh was a Christian, not a Pagan. I've known pantheist Pagans. But I've known polytheist, agnostic and atheist pagans too. Indeed, if there is a default position on this question with the Neo-pagan sphere, I would hazard to guess that it is "who knows?" because I don't think this is something that everyone necessarily thinks about.

Unless you mean Pagan in the vaguer sense of "not orthodox Christian", in which case all pantheists are included by definition.
These days Christians claim to be Jews too, but Christian doctrine does not agree with pantheism.

Pantheism was coined for Hinduism. It is a philosophical idea that logically follows Polytheism. As polytheism is a real spiritual connection with all the beings in Nature, it is a logical step to see all beings as interconnected into one.

Abrahamism however is a clear breach with Paganism, it creates the idea of the supernatural and the disconnection between God and Nature. Man is a creature thrown out of Paradise and needs to find his way to Heaven back. And only Man, Animals and other beings are not considered to have soul or spirit. Monotheism is very close to Atheism, it very theoretical (doctrine) and they only have one God left, who is no real God (Spirit of Nature) but a supreme book being. Rather than a real spiritual connection one depends on belief. First people have to believe, the "spiritual" connection then comes as an emotional placebo because they believe.

Abrahamism is both the corruption of pagan spirituality as the original philosophical concepts, a hybrid created for political purposes by despots. As Christianity simply absorbs existing ideas, practices and traditions, it can mask as anything, but at the same time they are very active in destroying the original traditions.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Pantheism was coined for Hinduism. It is a philosophical idea that logically follows Polytheism. As polytheism is a real spiritual connection with all the beings in Nature, it is a logical step to see all beings as interconnected into one.

In your opinion, where does soft polytheism end and pantheism begin in relation to pantheism logically following from polytheism?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
This is a pretty good article summarizing pantheism in a polytheist context: http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/pantheism/

The idea is that in many forms of polytheism, the Gods are inherent within their domains, rather than being external "causes". That is to say, Þunor/Thor isn't the "God of Thunder"; rather, Þunor/Thor is, linguistically and conceptually, one and the same with Thunder (the word "thunder" is descended from the Old English word "þunor", which was simultaneously the name of the phenomenon and the God).

In this context, the Gods are not used to explain phenomena, so much as they describe our relationships with phenomena.
 

Politesse

Amor Vincit Omnia
These days Christians claim to be Jews too, but Christian doctrine does not agree with pantheism.

Pantheism was coined for Hinduism. It is a philosophical idea that logically follows Polytheism. As polytheism is a real spiritual connection with all the beings in Nature, it is a logical step to see all beings as interconnected into one.

Abrahamism however is a clear breach with Paganism, it creates the idea of the supernatural and the disconnection between God and Nature. Man is a creature thrown out of Paradise and needs to find his way to Heaven back. And only Man, Animals and other beings are not considered to have soul or spirit. Monotheism is very close to Atheism, it very theoretical (doctrine) and they only have one God left, who is no real God (Spirit of Nature) but a supreme book being. Rather than a real spiritual connection one depends on belief. First people have to believe, the "spiritual" connection then comes as an emotional placebo because they believe.

Abrahamism is both the corruption of pagan spirituality as the original philosophical concepts, a hybrid created for political purposes by despots. As Christianity simply absorbs existing ideas, practices and traditions, it can mask as anything, but at the same time they are very active in destroying the original traditions.
I'm afraid I simply disagree with most of this; wouldn't comment except that you made this a reply to my post. To clarify: Your polytheism sounds more like animism, I think you are dealing in prejudicial modernist caricatures of monotheistic thought instead of the real deal, and also misunderstanding what the pantheistic claim looks like usually, since it is not about animist spirits being interconnected but rather of the whole universe being a manifestation of the One.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Is there non-pantheistic / non-panentheistic paganism? If so, how common and how well delimited is it?
Indian pagnism (one God or Goddess in each village) is non-pantheistic / non-panentheistic.

The 360 Gods and Goddesses of Kulu valley gather to meet Lord Rama in Kulu in Dussehra.
kullu_dussehra.jpg
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I was wondering why pantheism and panentheism has their own section. Are they not considered a type of paganism?

I always thought panthiesm and panentheism, just like atheism, is a worldview rather than a belief system of any sort. For example, I am a animist, atheist, panthiest, and (I think I'm missing one? ;) ) These are just worldviews. However, I am hardcore Buddhist and have folk pagan practices which do not define any religion in itself (example not a specific pagan belief system.) They are practices embedded in the culture of the belief system I follow.

Paganism, at its core definitions, is a group of faiths that define polythiestic folk traditions older than Abrahamic religions. Pantheism, Panenthiesm, atheism, deism, and so forth are not intentionally incorporated into Paganism, but in some Pagan faiths, they are interconnected within the belief system. It doesn't define pagan faiths. It's a part of some pagan faiths.

What you are asking is, like, is theism a part of Christianity. Theism is a worldview/belief that there is only one God. It is a part of/interconnected within Christianity (it's one of many things that make Christianity what it is); but, it is not separate "section" as is Islam, Judaism, and other faiths is to Christianity.

Short answer: No.

Panthiesm, panthenthiesm, deism, atheist, etc are worldviews (or what @Quintessence said, theological approach), but, in my view, they are not separate sections. They are part of some pagan faiths; and, by themselves, they mean nothing without the religion (whatever pagan religion which has that worldview in their belief system).


:leafwind:
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Is there non-pantheistic / non-panentheistic paganism? If so, how common and how well delimited is it?

I think that it's certainly possible for some variety of paganism to be non-pantheistic/panentheistic. There's nothing stopping somebody adopting a form of hard polytheism and making a clear distinction between gods and the world. However, I don't think I've ever personally encountered somebody who takes this approach. Typically the gods are viewed as at least somewhat synonymous with a natural phenomenon or human concept, even if they are also considered sentient beings in their own right.

At least this has been my experience with what you might call Western paganism.
 
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