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How does (did) one know who has (had) authored a book?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Challenge*

I hereby make a legal and binding declaration and a pledge warranted by the shariah, inviting anyone from among the disbelievers to prove, on the basis of arguments derived from his own Revealed Book, that it is equal in status to the Holy Quran in respect of all the arguments that we have produced* from our Holy Book in support of its own truth and the truth of the Prophet-hood of Hadrat Khatamul-Anbiya’ [the Seal of the Prophets], may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him; or, if he cannot advance arguments equal in number to our arguments, he can produce from his own scripture at least half of them, or one-third of them, or one-fourth of them, or one-fifth of them. Or, if he is totally incapable of doing any of this, he can at least refute my arguments one by one. In either case, I, the publisher of this announcement, shall, without resorting to any kind of excuse, give to the one who duly responds to this challenge the possession and the right to make use of my property worth ten thousand rupees, provided that three judges, acceptable to both parties, unanimously give the verdict that the conditions [laid down for the contest] have been duly met. Let it be clear, however, that if he is unable to advance rational arguments from his own scripture, or if he, in accordance with the conditions laid down in the announcement, fails to put forward even one fifth of the arguments, he will have to make a written submission, in clear and unequivocal terms, that the inadequacy and irrationality of his scripture has rendered him incapable of fulfilling this clause. If, however, he does advance the required number of arguments, he should keep in mind that the permission to advance up to one fifth of the arguments does not mean that he can advance one-half or one-third or one fourth or one-fifth of the total number of arguments. This condition rather applies to each category of arguments—he will have to advance one-half or one-third or one-fourth or one-fifth of the arguments from each category.


"Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Part-1" Page:47-50 *by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Parts1-2.pdf
~Ten thousand rupees was the total value of the property of the author in 1879. [Publishers]​
Note:1.The challenge in the original book was written in bold letters.
2.Please access the above link to see the challenge and the conditions in full.


#55 #60
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
You mean a book has not necessarily be bound in covers (of leather etc).
Regards
That's not what he said at all. He's pointing out that the TV show was based on a book (with a cover and everything).
Torah was mostly a verbal transmission and later, rather very late that it was known to be a book:
Did Moses Really Write the Torah?

"It was only once Judea fell under Greek culture that a book market began to develop and the author began to be of importance. The first Hebrew book to state clearly who its author was is the Wisdom of Sirach, written in the beginning of the second century BCE by a Jewish scribe named Ben Sira, well after the Greek conquest.
Thus an identity for the writer of the Pentateuch became sought. But how did the misunderstanding that it was Moses arose? That brings us to the second change – a semantic one."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.657492
A book, therefore, has not necessarily to be bound in covers (of leather etc). Is it?

Regards
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Challenge*

"Some people might not understand what I mean by the ‘category of arguments,’ so let me explain that the arguments given by the Holy Quran as proof of its own divine origin and the truth of the Prophethood of Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, are of two types.
First, there are arguments that are based on the internal evidence of the truth of the Holy Scripture [Quran] and of the Holy Prophet, i.e. arguments based on the inherent excellences of this Sacred Book and those based on the holy character, excellent morals and perfect qualities of the Holy Prophet himself. Secondly, there are arguments that are based on the external and incontrovertible evidence of the truth of the Noble Quran and of the Holy Prophet, i.e. arguments based on objective facts and established, recurrent events.
Each type of [the above mentioned] arguments is further divided into two categories—the simple argument and the composite argument. The simple argument is the argument that is in itself sufficient for establishing the divine origin of the Noble Quran and the truthfulness of the Holy Prophet sa, and does not need anything else to support it. The composite argument is the argument whose validity requires a set of mutually dependent arguments, which, when considered as a whole—i.e. when all its components are taken into account collectively—is found to be so perfect that it necessarily establishes the truth of the Holy Quran and of the Holy Prophet; but when each component is considered individually, it may lack the required degree of cogency. And the reason for this discrepancy is that the value of the whole always differs from the sum of its components. For instance, ten people can collectively lift a weight, but if the same number tries to lift it one by one, they will find it impossible. All the individual arguments, which belong to either of these two types of arguments, will be referred to as ‘categories of arguments’ in this book. And it is in this context that, in the beginning of this announcement, I outlined the condition that anyone who intends to take up the challenge should, from each category of arguments, advance [from his own scripture] half of the arguments of the Holy Quran or one-third of them, or one-fourth of them, or one-fifth of them. This is in case he is unable to produce all the arguments that fall under one category."


"Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Part-1" Page:50-53 *by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Parts1-2.pdf
~Ten thousand rupees was the total value of the property of the author in 1879. [Publishers]
Note:1.The challenge in the original book was written in bold letters.
2.Please access the above link to see the challenge and the conditions in full.

#55 #60 [URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-does-did-one-know-who-has-had-authored-a-book.185390/page-4#post-4681111']#61[/URL]
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Torah was mostly a verbal transmission and later, rather very late that it was known to be a book:
Did Moses Really Write the Torah?

"It was only once Judea fell under Greek culture that a book market began to develop and the author began to be of importance. The first Hebrew book to state clearly who its author was is the Wisdom of Sirach, written in the beginning of the second century BCE by a Jewish scribe named Ben Sira, well after the Greek conquest.
Thus an identity for the writer of the Pentateuch became sought. But how did the misunderstanding that it was Moses arose? That brings us to the second change – a semantic one."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.657492
A book, therefore, has not necessarily to be bound in covers (of leather etc). Is it?

Regards
I agree that books aren't necessarily bound physically with covers. I would think that anyone making that claim would be extremely ignorant as to what a book is.

But, can you explain how you got that from the comment you responded to? And, also, why does it matter that books don't have to be physically bound?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Torah was mostly a verbal transmission and later, rather very late that it was known to be a book:
Did Moses Really Write the Torah?

"It was only once Judea fell under Greek culture that a book market began to develop and the author began to be of importance. The first Hebrew book to state clearly who its author was is the Wisdom of Sirach, written in the beginning of the second century BCE by a Jewish scribe named Ben Sira, well after the Greek conquest.
Thus an identity for the writer of the Pentateuch became sought. But how did the misunderstanding that it was Moses arose? That brings us to the second change – a semantic one."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.657492
A book, therefore, has not necessarily to be bound in covers (of leather etc). Is it?

Regards
I agree that books aren't necessarily bound physically with covers. I would think that anyone making that claim would be extremely ignorant as to what a book is.
But, can you explain how you got that from the comment you responded to? And, also, why does it matter that books don't have to be physically bound?

What is a book?

In the Kindle era, it seems pretty obvious. There is an implicit argument in the act of digitizing a book and removing it from the shelf: a book is its text. A book is a unique string of words, as good as its bits.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/what-is-a-book/361876/
Regards
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
The Challenge*
There's no way that this challenge could be done objectively: it would all boil down to a matter of opinion. Muslims will think the Quran has the best messages, Jews will think that the Torah has the best messages, Mormons the Book of Mormon, and so on. You might as well have a debate as to whether "The Wizard of Oz" or "Alice in Wonderland" is better. I'd be interested in knowing the characteristics of these "three judges. acceptable to both parties". Obviously, none of them can be Muslims or members of the other religion involved in the competition, as that would result in bias in one direction or the other. Could three such people even be found?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Challenge*

"Furthermore, it should also be clear that if anyone wishes to cite an example of the composite argument—which I have just defined—from his scripture, then, if the constituent parts of an argument form an argument in their own right, it will be binding on him to produce at least one instance of all these sub-arguments from his own scripture.
As an illustration of the above condition, I cite one of the many authentic composite arguments in support of the truth of the Holy Quran. It is as follows: The fundamental teachings of the Holy Quran are based on rational arguments. That is to say, the Holy Quran proves with logical arguments every fundamental principle of faith on which salvation depends and establishes its truth by strong and powerful philosophical arguments.
For instance, it proves the existence of the Creator, establishes His Unity, advances irrefutable arguments to show why divine revelation is necessary, and never fails to prove a truth or refute a falsehood. And this constitutes a very powerful argument to prove that the Holy Quran is from Allah, and also to categorically establish its truth and its supremacy.
For, it is impossible, without divine help and divine revelation, to purge all corrupt beliefs of every form and type of error through manifest and clear arguments, and to eradicate by means of irrefutable arguments all sorts of misgivings and doubts, which have crept into people’s hearts, and to record in one’s book a collection of such proven, true and established principles as have not been mentioned in any other scripture, nor truly discovered by any sage or philosopher on the basis of his reflection, meditation, reason, speculation, thought or understanding."


"Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Part-1" Page:53-56 *by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Parts1-2.pdf
~Ten thousand rupees was the total value of the property of the author in 1879. [Publishers]
Note:1.The challenge in the original book was written in bold letters.
Note:2.Please access the above link to see the challenge and the conditions in full.

#55 #60 #61 #65
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Torah was mostly a verbal transmission and later, rather very late that it was known to be a book:
Did Moses Really Write the Torah?

"It was only once Judea fell under Greek culture that a book market began to develop and the author began to be of importance. The first Hebrew book to state clearly who its author was is the Wisdom of Sirach, written in the beginning of the second century BCE by a Jewish scribe named Ben Sira, well after the Greek conquest.
Thus an identity for the writer of the Pentateuch became sought. But how did the misunderstanding that it was Moses arose? That brings us to the second change – a semantic one."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.657492
A book, therefore, has not necessarily to be bound in covers (of leather etc). Is it?

Regards


What is a book?

In the Kindle era, it seems pretty obvious. There is an implicit argument in the act of digitizing a book and removing it from the shelf: a book is its text. A book is a unique string of words, as good as its bits.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/what-is-a-book/361876/
Regards
I think by book he meant written down, not merely verbal traditions.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I'd be interested in knowing the characteristics of these "three judges. acceptable to both parties". Obviously, none of them can be Muslims or members of the other religion involved in the competition, as that would result in bias in one direction or the other. Could three such people even be found?

And therein lies the hypocrisy in paarsurrey's position. He has demanded elsewhere that people try reading the Quran neutrally, without bias or prejudice, and with an open mind - something he himself has never done.

In other words if they disagree that the Quran is divinely inspired or only advocates peace then they're obviously reading it wrong. Confirmation bias!
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Challenge*

"What is more, no one has ever brought forward the slightest evidence that the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, ever, even for a day, attended any school or learnt rational or traditional sciences, or ever associated with philosophers or logicians, as a result of which he was able to advance philosophical arguments for each and every established principle and demonstrate the truthfulness of all the beliefs on which man’s salvation depends, with such clarity that nothing like it is to be found in the annals of history.
This is such a magnificent achievement as could not be accomplished by anyone without divine support and revelation. Thus, reason is compelled to rule that the Noble Quran is from God, who has no associate and whose knowledge cannot be equalled by anyone. I have given this argument as a specimen of the composite arguments whose components are arguments in their own right. Hence, all the components of this argument are such that each of them is based on axiomatic truths.
Since this argument, too, belongs to one of the categories of arguments, therefore, just as the disputant is bound to produce all the other categories of arguments, so must he also produce arguments of this category. In doing so, however, it is necessary to produce all the sub-arguments on which this argument is based, and whose totality constitutes it, such as the argument for establishing the existence of the Creator, the argument for establishing His Unity, the argument or establishing His creative power, etc., all of which are components of this argument.**"
**
Note by Hadrat Maulana Jalal-ud-Din Shamsra: The Urdu words daleel that are translated here as ‘this argument,’ were written by the Promised Messiah, may peace be on him, in his own handwriting in his copy of the book.

"Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Part-1" Page:53-56 *by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Parts1-2.pdf
~Ten thousand rupees was the total value of the property of the author in 1879. [Publishers]
Note:1.The challenge in the original book was written in bold letters.
Note:2.Please access the above link to see the challenge and the conditions in full.

#55 #60 #61#65 #69
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Challenge*

"The existence of a whole is not possible without the existence of its component parts, nor is the realization of any value possible without considering the value of its constituents. Thus it is also** mandatory on the disputant to advance all these sub-arguments, though he has the option that where we have, for instance, given five sub-arguments to prove a principle, he may— to prove or disprove a claim, as his view may be—give only one sub-argument by deducing it from his scripture in conformity with the conditions and limits I have laid down in this announcement.
Announced by the humble one, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadian, District Gurdaspur, Punjab"
Uquote. It completes the text of the challenge
** Note by Hadrat Maulana Jalal-ud-Din Shams (ra): The Urdu word bhee that is translated here as ‘also,’ was written by the Promised Messiah, may peace be on him, in his own handwriting.

"Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Part-1" Page:58-59 *by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya-Parts1-2.pdf
~Ten thousand rupees was the total value of the property of the author in 1879. [Publishers]
Note:1.The challenge in the original book was written in bold letters.
Note:2.Please access the above link to see the challenge and the conditions in full.

#55#60#61#65#69#74[URL='http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-does-did-one-know-who-has-had-authored-a-book.185390/page-4#post-4703016']#75[/URL]
 
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