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genetic manipulation

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
So the line is drawn based on normal vs. Abnormal? Why is any disease or condition considered abnormal? It seems to be a socially forced distinction not one born of religious argument. Perhaps there is an argument of which I am not aware?
Because diseased or disfigured body is not the way a healthy body is supposed to be. So it's fine to use science to return or bring the body to a normal state of functioning. But to go beyond that is what's prohibited.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Because diseased or disfigured body is not the way a healthy body is supposed to be. So it's fine to use science to return or bring the body to a normal state of functioning. But to go beyond that is what's prohibited.
Why is that not how a body is "supposed to be." Doesn't this assume to know God's intent? If we can know God's intent why cannot we know God's intent was to create us with the ability to better ourselves genetically when the time was right?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Why is that not how a body is "supposed to be." Doesn't this assume to know God's intent? If we can know God's intent why cannot we know God's intent was to create us with the ability to better ourselves genetically when the time was right?
Well, the obvious answer would be that if God wanted us to be different, He would've made us different.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Does your religion have anything to say about it?

Nope. But I wager various Neopagans, be they Wiccans, Druids, Heathens, Hellenics, or something else entirely, have a few things to say about it.

Should we manipulate the genome to better our species?

I think that the notion of "bettering" our species is fundamentally arrogant, regardless of the form it takes. It also leads us more and more astray from finding contentment with what we have, expressing gratitude for what we have, and learning how to say "I have enough" instead of feeding into a never-satiated pursuit for more, more, more.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Nope. But I wager various Neopagans, be they Wiccans, Druids, Heathens, Hellenics, or something else entirely, have a few things to say about it.



I think that the notion of "bettering" our species is fundamentally arrogant, regardless of the form it takes. It also leads us more and more astray from finding contentment with what we have, expressing gratitude for what we have, and learning how to say "I have enough" instead of feeding into a never-satiated pursuit for more, more, more.
You do not think that rituals in various rituals in nature based religion are specifically aimed at bettering? How are these different? While contentment may serve a person well, so does striving for betterment. We see people striving to better themselves throughout history. This is one of those connecting motivations we see regardless of culture. To dismiss such as the antithesis of contentment is not so easily done.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that the notion of "bettering" our species is fundamentally arrogant, regardless of the form it takes. It also leads us more and more astray from finding contentment with what we have, expressing gratitude for what we have, and learning how to say "I have enough" instead of feeding into a never-satiated pursuit for more, more, more.
I will think about that.
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
My mother and her sisters were "Bettered ! " whilst imprisoned in Buchenwald ..
the result being I and most of my cousins are sterile .....
this was sadly the intent of Mengele and his fellows
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Why doesn't that work for people with diseases and such then?
Because people with diseases aren't healthy. There's no transgression in restoring someone to health. But screwing with genetics to make humans into something we were never meant to be is incompatible with Catholicism and respect for the human person.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Because people with diseases aren't healthy. There's no transgression in restoring someone to health. But screwing with genetics to make humans into something we were never meant to be is incompatible with Catholicism and respect for the human person.
I feel like we just went in a circle. Why were we "never meant to be" a certain way?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
My mother and her sisters were "Bettered ! " whilst imprisoned in Buchenwald ..
the result being I and most of my cousins are sterile .....
this was sadly the intent of Mengele and his fellows
Experimented upon during the holocaust is hardly "bettered." While the emotional appeal might be effective, to rule out something because another has abused such is not logical. Religion has been used to commit countless atrocities, should religion be forbidden as well?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
You do not think that rituals in various rituals in nature based religion are specifically aimed at bettering?

You'd have to get more specific.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't segments of the Neopagan community that engage in the goal of "bettering" humanity. I am not one of them. I am far more interested in improving the flourishing of the non-human world, which, unfortunately, is rather at odds with the human species at the present. Or, I am only interested in "bettering" myself or my community, and all the while recognizing that I am in no way "bettering" anything, I am simply embodying a direction I value. Which is, undoubtedly "worsening" to someone or something else.

That aside, one of the things that really does set Neopaganism apart from many of the other world religions is that it does not, by and large, see the world, humanity or otherwise, as fundamentally flawed or wrong. There is no need to "better" things; the world is already sacred and wholesome. And given the level of cynicism and wanton consumerism I see in my culture, seems to me many of my people could do with a lot more of counting their blessings and recognizing there is beauty all around them already.
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
Experimented upon during the holocaust is hardly "bettered." While the emotional appeal might be effective, to rule out something because another has abused such is not logical. Religion has been used to commit countless atrocities, should religion be forbidden as well?

Gosh, what a surprise, astounds me somewhat that you conclude an emotive and negative conclusion
from me....
Although we (I and my extended family) may not approve the results we find ourselves in...
still there is some awe and wonder that they had discovered DNA to a degree, and were able
to manipulate it ..... their motivation is another matter ....
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
You'd have to get more specific.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't segments of the Neopagan community that engage in the goal of "bettering" humanity. I am not one of them. I am far more interested in improving the flourishing of the non-human world, which, unfortunately, is rather at odds with the human species at the present. Or, I am only interested in "bettering" myself or my community, and all the while recognizing that I am in no way "bettering" anything, I am simply embodying a direction I value. Which is, undoubtedly "worsening" to someone or something else.

That aside, one of the things that really does set Neopaganism apart from many of the other world religions is that it does not, by and large, see the world, humanity or otherwise, as fundamentally flawed or wrong. There is no need to "better" things; the world is already sacred and wholesome. And given the level of cynicism and wanton consumerism I see in my culture, seems to me many of my people could do with a lot more of counting their blessings and recognizing there is beauty all around them already.
So should they perhaps better their selves with wisdom and knowledge?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Gosh, what a surprise, astounds me somewhat that you conclude an emotive and negative conclusion
from me....
Although we (I and my extended family) may not approve the results we find ourselves in...
still there is some awe and wonder that they had discovered DNA to a degree, and were able
to manipulate it ..... their motivation is another matter ....
If I jumped preemptively, I apologize. Usually extreme examples such the Nazi atrocities are offered to prove something is inherently evil.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So should they perhaps better their selves with wisdom and knowledge?

If that's the path one wishes to take, sure. Be what one wishes to see in the world and all that, right?

When it comes right down to it, people should do what is in keeping for their character, not what you or I think they should do. Ultimately that is what will happen anyway. That I see no meritous purpose to a species-wide eugenics program does not mean others cannot. Nor does the fact that I think such efforts are misguided make it so.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Catholicism allows for gene therapy but is against genetic engineering/manipulation:

Human or Superhuman? | Daily News | NCRegister.com

I can only read half of that I disagree so much. Typical western culture material which says we all have climb the mountain and suffer instead of finding the easier shortcut to doing things. Well here's an argument for you. What if they figure out how to genetically modify a human nose so it can smell co2 or maybe be sensitive enough to pickup the smell of a fire that's starting 5 rooms away. Would save lives right? How about if they could give us the eyes of an eagle, so that the search and rescue people in helicopters can pick out someone in need of rescue on the ocean with their bare eyes for miles. Or how about they modify the human tongue so it can taste food poisoning. Or even with muscle example, it would ease the lives of construction workers. But nope, western culture says we must suffer.
 
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