Gay Cake Row: How have we come to this point?

[Ultimatum]

'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery - BBC News

A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage.

Thoughts?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery - BBC News

A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage.

Thoughts?

I disagree with this ruling.

As I mentioned in another thread about the Indiana pizza parlour case, I see a distinction between refusing to serve a particular customer and refusing to make a product that a customer wants.

I don't think the government should compel expression. The cake is the expression of the cake maker, not the customer.

 

[Altfish]

It is not easy

What if the slogan had been a racial equality slogan that they refused to produce because they were white supremacists?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What if the slogan had been a racial equality slogan that they refused to produce because they were white supremacists?

That seems a similar scenario to the OP. Personally I think the ruling sends out the correct message, one of zero tolerance on homophobia. Also that Christians and other religious groups aren't above the law, and don't get a free pass on discrimination and bigotry.

 

[Marisa]

'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery - BBC News

A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage.

Thoughts?

In answer to the question that the title of this thread, I tend to agree with George Tekei that we've successfully plumbed the depth of butthurt. We seem to be functioning under the false delusion that people get points for being offended.

I think it's very easy to figure this out. If you bake cakes, you don't get to decide whom you will or won't bake cakes for. But you don't have to be compelled to write anything on them that you're not comfortable with.

If you are a florist, same deal. You don't get to decide who you will or won't sell flowers to. But that doesn't mean you have to arrange them at a gay wedding if you think you run the risk of getting gay cooties all over you.

ETA: what chaps my hide about all this is that it's usually christians doing this sort of crap, and generally speaking in their next breath they'll tell you they believe in a god that is love, mercy and forgiveness. I'm not sure those words mean what some christians seem to think they mean.

 

[Revoltingest]

In answer to the question that the title of this thread, I tend to agree with George Tekei that we've successfully plumbed the depth of butthurt. We seem to be functioning under the false delusion that people get points for being offended.

I think it's very easy to figure this out. If you bake cakes, you don't get to decide whom you will or won't bake cakes for. But you don't have to be compelled to write anything on them that you're not comfortable with.

If you are a florist, same deal. You don't get to decide who you will or won't sell flowers to. But that doesn't mean you have to arrange them at a gay wedding if you think you run the risk of getting gay cooties all over you.

ETA: what chaps my hide about all this is that it's usually christians doing this sort of crap, and generally speaking in their next breath they'll tell you they believe in a god that is love, mercy and forgiveness. I'm not sure those words mean what some christians seem to think they mean.

It isn't just Xians engaging in illegal discrimination.
But they command more notice.

 

[Mycroft]

I think they're free to turn away the Gay people if they want to.

But they should also be held accountable for it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think they're free to turn away the Gay people if they want to.
But they should also be held accountable for it.

If they're held accountable by government, then that's not really "free".

 

[Mycroft]

If they're held accountable by government, then that's not really "free".

But you've never really been 'free'. That's just a word put out there to placate you into accepting the system as it is.

But that isn't what I meant, necessarily. What I meant was that while they should have the legal right to turn customers away if it offends parts of their icy hearts, they should also have the moral responsibility to be held accountable for it. Such is the price of true freedom.

 

[Marisa]

If they're held accountable by government, then that's not really "free".

Has anyone yet been jailed for making salacious comments about gays or other races? Because for my two cents, I'd really love to see Duck Dude rotting on the chain gang.

 

[Revoltingest]

But you've never really been 'free'. That's just a word put out there to placate you into accepting the system as it is.

"Free" is a relative term, but it has meaning.

But that isn't what I meant, necessarily. What I meant was that while they should have the legal right to turn customers away if it offends parts of their icy hearts, they should also have the moral responsibility to be held accountable for it. Such is the price of true freedom.

If you're talking about their market reacting to their behavior, then that's my preferred approach.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think it's very easy to figure this out. If you bake cakes, you don't get to decide whom you will or won't bake cakes for. But you don't have to be compelled to write anything on them that you're not comfortable with.

I don't see the difference between baking a particular type of cake and writing something particular on it, it's all part of the service the business is claiming to provide.

 

[Revoltingest]

Has anyone yet been jailed for making salacious comments about gays or other races? Because for my two cents, I'd really love to see Duck Dude rotting on the chain gang.

I'd rather not jail anyone for speech.
That would be so Europistanian.
We're better than that.

 

[Marisa]

I don't see the difference between baking a particular type of cake and writing something particular on it, it's all part of the service the business is claiming to provide.

I see a difference. They sell cakes. Decorated. That doesn't necessarily have to mean with anti gay slurs or with 2 guys or gals on top. In other words, if a couple buys two wedding couples, pulls both dudes out and tosses the chicks in the bin, what is the decorator out?

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't see the difference between baking a particular type of cake and writing something particular on it, it's all part of the service the business is claiming to provide.

Suppose a pro-gay marriage cake message could be compelled by law.
What if a straight couple wanted a cake with an anti-gay marriage message?
Must gay bakers comply?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery - BBC News

A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage.

Thoughts?

For a gay wedding or a gay event I would agree. But for a slogan I think that they should have the ability to reject whatever slogan they want. Hell if they were a republican bakery I wouldn't want them to be forced to make a Hillary 2016 cake. Would that seem right?

 

[Marisa]

I'd rather not jail anyone for speech.
That would be so Europistanian.
We're better than that.

Good, because jailing people for speech clearly violates the 1st amendment. That was my point. People today seem to think the 1st amendment exists to keep idiots from having their TV show canceled. It doesn't. Until someone has been jailed because they said something other people found stupid, their rights have not been violated.

 

[Marisa]

For a gay wedding or a gay event I would agree. But for a slogan I think that they should have the ability to reject whatever slogan they want. Hell if they were a republican bakery I wouldn't want them to be forced to make a Hillary 2016 cake. Would that seem right?

That's why I'm saying sell them a cake, iced with pretty sugar flowers on it. And the supplies necessary to write what the heck ever they want on it.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

That's why I'm saying sell them a cake, iced with pretty sugar flowers on it. And the supplies necessary to write what the heck ever they want on it.

And I like the point you make here about how there may be more than one solution. It isn't either go somewhere else or be forced to make a cake. There are other options.

 

[Marisa]

And I like the point you make here about how there may be more than one solution. It isn't either go somewhere else or be forced to make a cake. There are other options.

There's always more than a binary choice.