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Freaking out about what we really can "know" here...

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Every semester I guest speak at a local college for philosophy and religion classes. Today the question of miracles came up, and the more I argued that they did not happen the more I realized that claim is impossible to make. There are too reasons for this. (1) Even if out of all the humans that ever lived there was not one person who rose from the dead, to say rising from the dead is impossible because of this is a huge leap of statistical faith. (2) In order to know if something was a miracle – a violation of natural law – you would have to know every single little thing about the universe and the could possibly happen, and determine that this absolutely could not. So faith or arrogance, neither of which I am a big fan of, I was required to use in my claim that miracles do not exist, and eventually to avoid arrogance was forced to accept the concept of “miracles” as an untouchable topic, since we may well never have enough knowledge to comment on such a thing.

Things get even crazier though. Understanding everything about our universe from a human perspective means that all the knowledge will be sense based and three dimensional, as humans interpret all the information and the universe as we experience it is third dimensional. Yet there is absolutely no reason or ability to say that is all there is. Perhaps there are Nth dimensional entities who are responsible for miracles, and even though we understand the universe as we experience it we have no way to know of these beings, therefore no ability to know if there are the cause of supposed miracles. Even if these beings came into your living room and told you all the things they know, there would still be no way of knowing whether they had the full picture or not.

Let’s take the example of depression. When people with depression get the proper anti-depressant it can seriously aid with the disorder. This would suggest that depression is something chemically based which can be addressed with medication. Our senses and knowledge of the universe as we experience it tell us then that depression is a physical/chemical illness which can be treated by physical pills and chemicals. However, what if there is actually an invisible imp pounding on people’s brains causing their depression, and the imps happen to be put to sleep by serotonin and other such drugs? Many will laugh, but the sad fact is there is no way to address this. All we can ever do is make claims based on statistics and the assumption that humans are seeing the whole picture.

Another common example is the “invisible pink unicorn in my garage” point I see way too often. Previously I laughed at this and argued that there’s no evidence of unicorns nor invisible things, but I no long feel like holding on so tightly to that faith. Nor am I willing to be arrogant and say that I know enough about existence itself to say with certainty this is not the case. All I can do is say that – as far as I can tell – there is not going to be a unicorn in your garage. In other words, there is nothing I can do to argue against you. What if you have specially evolved eyes and the unicorn moves interdimensionally? Most would laugh but only out of fear or arrogance. The simple truth is you have no idea if I have an invisible unicorn in my garage which only I can see and which moves only through the Nth dimension.

A bit of a ramble, but when you start studying knowledge your mind seems to become pretty much a jumble. I’m interested in anyone’s take on this.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Typed on a phone btw, don't really care about the grammar errors enough to fix them to be honest.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I’m interested in anyone’s take on this.
I am going to argue in favor of belief in miracles. I am an interested student in all things considered paranormal and spiritual. Really my support of miracles just comes from consideration (not blind acceptance) of real world evidence of the claims from disparate sources that I have heard. When consider paranormal claims I of course consider all the 'normal' possible explanations (from hoax to misinterpretation of normal phenomena to hallucination to etc.). Although I have heard some strongly convincing stories for certain types of phenomena, in the end for individual claims we will have to admit no one can say with 100% certainty what really happened. That is the nature of spontaneous events; we can't go back and do the study we want to do. My personal opinion is that the stronger claims do provide a thread of evidence and enough threads can make a considerably strong twine. I do believe beyond reasonable doubt that this universe is something dramatically more complex than our 'normal' explanations consider. I do admit that this is only my own strong conclusion and belief.

Another point in your OP is this idea that we are each individually trying to decide what the universe is like. I personally also consider what the various human wisdom traditions tell us. I have looked into the eastern/Indian wisdom tradition and have come to believe these things we call 'miracles' are actually normal and explainable by the expanded worldview of Vedic/Indian thought.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Every semester I guest speak at a local college for philosophy and religion classes. Today the question of miracles came up, and the more I argued that they did not happen the more I realized that claim is impossible to make. There are too reasons for this. (1) Even if out of all the humans that ever lived there was not one person who rose from the dead, to say rising from the dead is impossible because of this is a huge leap of statistical faith. (2) In order to know if something was a miracle – a violation of natural law – you would have to know every single little thing about the universe and the could possibly happen, and determine that this absolutely could not. So faith or arrogance, neither of which I am a big fan of, I was required to use in my claim that miracles do not exist, and eventually to avoid arrogance was forced to accept the concept of “miracles” as an untouchable topic, since we may well never have enough knowledge to comment on such a thing.

Things get even crazier though. Understanding everything about our universe from a human perspective means that all the knowledge will be sense based and three dimensional, as humans interpret all the information and the universe as we experience it is third dimensional. Yet there is absolutely no reason or ability to say that is all there is. Perhaps there are Nth dimensional entities who are responsible for miracles, and even though we understand the universe as we experience it we have no way to know of these beings, therefore no ability to know if there are the cause of supposed miracles. Even if these beings came into your living room and told you all the things they know, there would still be no way of knowing whether they had the full picture or not.

Let’s take the example of depression. When people with depression get the proper anti-depressant it can seriously aid with the disorder. This would suggest that depression is something chemically based which can be addressed with medication. Our senses and knowledge of the universe as we experience it tell us then that depression is a physical/chemical illness which can be treated by physical pills and chemicals. However, what if there is actually an invisible imp pounding on people’s brains causing their depression, and the imps happen to be put to sleep by serotonin and other such drugs? Many will laugh, but the sad fact is there is no way to address this. All we can ever do is make claims based on statistics and the assumption that humans are seeing the whole picture.

Another common example is the “invisible pink unicorn in my garage” point I see way too often. Previously I laughed at this and argued that there’s no evidence of unicorns nor invisible things, but I no long feel like holding on so tightly to that faith. Nor am I willing to be arrogant and say that I know enough about existence itself to say with certainty this is not the case. All I can do is say that – as far as I can tell – there is not going to be a unicorn in your garage. In other words, there is nothing I can do to argue against you. What if you have specially evolved eyes and the unicorn moves interdimensionally? Most would laugh but only out of fear or arrogance. The simple truth is you have no idea if I have an invisible unicorn in my garage which only I can see and which moves only through the Nth dimension.

A bit of a ramble, but when you start studying knowledge your mind seems to become pretty much a jumble. I’m interested in anyone’s take on this.
Welcome to the world of the agnostic.:D
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Every semester I guest speak at a local college for philosophy and religion classes. Today the question of miracles came up, and the more I argued that they did not happen the more I realized that claim is impossible to make. There are too reasons for this. (1) Even if out of all the humans that ever lived there was not one person who rose from the dead, to say rising from the dead is impossible because of this is a huge leap of statistical faith. (2) In order to know if something was a miracle – a violation of natural law – you would have to know every single little thing about the universe and the could possibly happen, and determine that this absolutely could not. So faith or arrogance, neither of which I am a big fan of, I was required to use in my claim that miracles do not exist, and eventually to avoid arrogance was forced to accept the concept of “miracles” as an untouchable topic, since we may well never have enough knowledge to comment on such a thing.

Things get even crazier though. Understanding everything about our universe from a human perspective means that all the knowledge will be sense based and three dimensional, as humans interpret all the information and the universe as we experience it is third dimensional. Yet there is absolutely no reason or ability to say that is all there is. Perhaps there are Nth dimensional entities who are responsible for miracles, and even though we understand the universe as we experience it we have no way to know of these beings, therefore no ability to know if there are the cause of supposed miracles. Even if these beings came into your living room and told you all the things they know, there would still be no way of knowing whether they had the full picture or not.

Let’s take the example of depression. When people with depression get the proper anti-depressant it can seriously aid with the disorder. This would suggest that depression is something chemically based which can be addressed with medication. Our senses and knowledge of the universe as we experience it tell us then that depression is a physical/chemical illness which can be treated by physical pills and chemicals. However, what if there is actually an invisible imp pounding on people’s brains causing their depression, and the imps happen to be put to sleep by serotonin and other such drugs? Many will laugh, but the sad fact is there is no way to address this. All we can ever do is make claims based on statistics and the assumption that humans are seeing the whole picture.

Another common example is the “invisible pink unicorn in my garage” point I see way too often. Previously I laughed at this and argued that there’s no evidence of unicorns nor invisible things, but I no long feel like holding on so tightly to that faith. Nor am I willing to be arrogant and say that I know enough about existence itself to say with certainty this is not the case. All I can do is say that – as far as I can tell – there is not going to be a unicorn in your garage. In other words, there is nothing I can do to argue against you. What if you have specially evolved eyes and the unicorn moves interdimensionally? Most would laugh but only out of fear or arrogance. The simple truth is you have no idea if I have an invisible unicorn in my garage which only I can see and which moves only through the Nth dimension.

A bit of a ramble, but when you start studying knowledge your mind seems to become pretty much a jumble. I’m interested in anyone’s take on this.

I have realized that anything really is possible -technically. Being raised from the dead is perhaps even a lesser feat than existing in the first place. It's just a "simple" matter of rearranging or re-configuring matter, energy, etc., to a previous state.
The fact that we can't presently do it does not mean it is impossible -or hasn't been done.
If we had the knowledge/data and the necessary ability to interface with the environment, even we could accomplish it.

As for the depression thing.... I think it is a matter of malfunction, false perception, and less-than-ideal states within and without. If a situation is less than ideal, a mind which recognizes the fact will "feel" it. If the healthy mind is unaware, one will not "feel" it -and one whose mind is malfunctioning will feel it even if it is not true -false chemical signals can be present or introduced which are normally caused by/are reactions to certain types of situations..... etc., etc....
We do not understand our own construction -our own systems -the environment, etc.....
We can imagine a perfect state -and know it is possible -but we know the present state of all things is not perfect.

I quite like this quote.......

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I am going to argue in favor of belief in miracles. I am an interested student in all things considered paranormal and spiritual. Really my support of miracles just comes from consideration (not blind acceptance) of real world evidence of the claims from disparate sources that I have heard. When consider paranormal claims I of course consider all the 'normal' possible explanations (from hoax to misinterpretation of normal phenomena to hallucination to etc.). Although I have heard some strongly convincing stories for certain types of phenomena, in the end for individual claims we will have to admit no one can say with 100% certainty what really happened. That is the nature of spontaneous events; we can't go back and do the study we want to do. My personal opinion is that the stronger claims do provide a thread of evidence and enough threads can make a considerably strong twine. I do believe beyond reasonable doubt that this universe is something dramatically more complex than our 'normal' explanations consider. I do admit that this is only my own strong conclusion and belief.

Another point in your OP is this idea that we are each individually trying to decide what the universe is like. I personally also consider what the various human wisdom traditions tell us. I have looked into the eastern/Indian wisdom tradition and have come to believe these things we call 'miracles' are actually normal and explainable by the expanded worldview of Vedic/Indian thought.

A fascinating read George (no sarcasm) but I'm more interested in discussing knowledge itself than the examples I provided.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Every semester I guest speak at a local college for philosophy and religion classes. Today the question of miracles came up, and the more I argued that they did not happen the more I realized that claim is impossible to make. There are too reasons for this. (1) Even if out of all the humans that ever lived there was not one person who rose from the dead, to say rising from the dead is impossible because of this is a huge leap of statistical faith. (2) In order to know if something was a miracle – a violation of natural law – you would have to know every single little thing about the universe and the could possibly happen, and determine that this absolutely could not. So faith or arrogance, neither of which I am a big fan of, I was required to use in my claim that miracles do not exist, and eventually to avoid arrogance was forced to accept the concept of “miracles” as an untouchable topic, since we may well never have enough knowledge to comment on such a thing.

Thus, the problem with inductive reasoning. Speaking on one's own experience as a basis for a truth claim is inadequate. I've never seen a miracle. Therefore, there are no miracles, isn't very much of a satisfactory answer. In order to know that there is no miracles ever would require to maintain knowledge about histories of not only this human race, but any alien race. However, deductive reasoning, as in, delineating truth values from establisherd empirical truth values, won't run into this problem. Which is why, scientifically, it's pretty much safe to assume that there are no miracles, although potential evidence to the contrary would have always have room to be examined.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
A fascinating read George (no sarcasm) but I'm more interested in discussing knowledge itself than the examples I provided.
Let me try to address the subject of what can be known. It sounds like you are requiring certainty. Certainty does not exist when you get beyond the range of physical science. So if you are interested in the subjects of religion, spirituality and the paranormal you will have to remain an agnostic. For me, I am interested in considering everything and determining objectively what is 'most reasonable' to believe about our existence and conclude as I indicated in my previous post.

EDIT: I would also like to say that we get our knowledge of the physical world by learning from the works of respected men of science. In the spiritual realm I have come to learn from men I (after due consideration) hold in respect; the saints/sages/seers of the eastern/Indian tradition who I believe have delved the deepest into the nature of reality beyond the senses. Again, the objective certainty of physical science can not be accomplished with things beyond our senses and physical instruments. You can remain 'agnostic' or believe what seems 'most reasonable' after thorough consideration.
 
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thau

Well-Known Member
Every semester I guest speak at a local college for philosophy and religion classes. Today the question of miracles came up, and the more I argued that they did not happen the more I realized that claim is impossible to make. There are too reasons for this. (1) Even if out of all the humans that ever lived there was not one person who rose from the dead, to say rising from the dead is impossible because of this is a huge leap of statistical faith. (2) In order to know if something was a miracle – a violation of natural law – you would have to know every single little thing about the universe and the could possibly happen, and determine that this absolutely could not. So faith or arrogance, neither of which I am a big fan of, I was required to use in my claim that miracles do not exist, and eventually to avoid arrogance was forced to accept the concept of “miracles” as an untouchable topic, since we may well never have enough knowledge to comment on such a thing.

Things get even crazier though. Understanding everything about our universe from a human perspective means that all the knowledge will be sense based and three dimensional, as humans interpret all the information and the universe as we experience it is third dimensional. Yet there is absolutely no reason or ability to say that is all there is. Perhaps there are Nth dimensional entities who are responsible for miracles, and even though we understand the universe as we experience it we have no way to know of these beings, therefore no ability to know if there are the cause of supposed miracles. Even if these beings came into your living room and told you all the things they know, there would still be no way of knowing whether they had the full picture or not.

Let’s take the example of depression. When people with depression get the proper anti-depressant it can seriously aid with the disorder. This would suggest that depression is something chemically based which can be addressed with medication. Our senses and knowledge of the universe as we experience it tell us then that depression is a physical/chemical illness which can be treated by physical pills and chemicals. However, what if there is actually an invisible imp pounding on people’s brains causing their depression, and the imps happen to be put to sleep by serotonin and other such drugs? Many will laugh, but the sad fact is there is no way to address this. All we can ever do is make claims based on statistics and the assumption that humans are seeing the whole picture.

Another common example is the “invisible pink unicorn in my garage” point I see way too often. Previously I laughed at this and argued that there’s no evidence of unicorns nor invisible things, but I no long feel like holding on so tightly to that faith. Nor am I willing to be arrogant and say that I know enough about existence itself to say with certainty this is not the case. All I can do is say that – as far as I can tell – there is not going to be a unicorn in your garage. In other words, there is nothing I can do to argue against you. What if you have specially evolved eyes and the unicorn moves interdimensionally? Most would laugh but only out of fear or arrogance. The simple truth is you have no idea if I have an invisible unicorn in my garage which only I can see and which moves only through the Nth dimension.

A bit of a ramble, but when you start studying knowledge your mind seems to become pretty much a jumble. I’m interested in anyone’s take on this.

The difference between man and animal is that man is rational. And right reason along with historical experience tells us there is a God.

Just because you can imagine something preposterous as a hyper-improbable explanation for some alleged miracle, due diligence and rational reasoning does not allow that as an answer. The painting of Mona Lisa did not just come into being on its own. Right reason demands there was a creator. Such an example is a working definition of absolute truth, and that kind of truth is all we need from God to go on.

The miracle of the sun predicted 90 days in advance by three very young shepherd Portuguese children can in no way be attributed to a cosmic hyper-anomaly along with an unfathomable coincidence occurring exactly the day it was foretold it would occur. It is simply a sign from God. God did not leave us to wander through this planet with no idea why we are here or what it's all about.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Three dimensions only applies to large objects. At the quantum level there's one dimensional objects that seem to behave as three dimensional objects. Think of a one dimensional string that makes a complete circle and connects to itself to form a perfectly flat plate. This plate flip as it moves. This is a particle.

Thoughts are not necessarily sense based and not three dimensional. Some thoughts are sense based, if you touch, taste, hear, or see something, but other thoughts are not sense based, if you are away from your spouse and think of them.

You think that your brain is a biological storage device and that your experiences are stored there, they're not. The brain is a biological transmitter/receiver. All of your experiences, all of your thoughts are stored with God in heaven. Your mind is just one file.

Feelings are caused by chemicals, just ask any drug user.

I have no idea if you have an invisible unicorn in your garage that only you can see? Everyone is not exactly the same. There is a man who sees pi in his head. He can recite it to 20,000 places.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Every semester I guest speak at a local college for philosophy and religion classes. Today the question of miracles came up, and the more I argued that they did not happen the more I realized that claim is impossible to make. There are too reasons for this. (1) Even if out of all the humans that ever lived there was not one person who rose from the dead, to say rising from the dead is impossible because of this is a huge leap of statistical faith. (2) In order to know if something was a miracle – a violation of natural law – you would have to know every single little thing about the universe and the could possibly happen, and determine that this absolutely could not. So faith or arrogance, neither of which I am a big fan of, I was required to use in my claim that miracles do not exist, and eventually to avoid arrogance was forced to accept the concept of “miracles” as an untouchable topic, since we may well never have enough knowledge to comment on such a thing.

Things get even crazier though. Understanding everything about our universe from a human perspective means that all the knowledge will be sense based and three dimensional, as humans interpret all the information and the universe as we experience it is third dimensional. Yet there is absolutely no reason or ability to say that is all there is. Perhaps there are Nth dimensional entities who are responsible for miracles, and even though we understand the universe as we experience it we have no way to know of these beings, therefore no ability to know if there are the cause of supposed miracles. Even if these beings came into your living room and told you all the things they know, there would still be no way of knowing whether they had the full picture or not.

Let’s take the example of depression. When people with depression get the proper anti-depressant it can seriously aid with the disorder. This would suggest that depression is something chemically based which can be addressed with medication. Our senses and knowledge of the universe as we experience it tell us then that depression is a physical/chemical illness which can be treated by physical pills and chemicals. However, what if there is actually an invisible imp pounding on people’s brains causing their depression, and the imps happen to be put to sleep by serotonin and other such drugs? Many will laugh, but the sad fact is there is no way to address this. All we can ever do is make claims based on statistics and the assumption that humans are seeing the whole picture.

Another common example is the “invisible pink unicorn in my garage” point I see way too often. Previously I laughed at this and argued that there’s no evidence of unicorns nor invisible things, but I no long feel like holding on so tightly to that faith. Nor am I willing to be arrogant and say that I know enough about existence itself to say with certainty this is not the case. All I can do is say that – as far as I can tell – there is not going to be a unicorn in your garage. In other words, there is nothing I can do to argue against you. What if you have specially evolved eyes and the unicorn moves interdimensionally? Most would laugh but only out of fear or arrogance. The simple truth is you have no idea if I have an invisible unicorn in my garage which only I can see and which moves only through the Nth dimension.

A bit of a ramble, but when you start studying knowledge your mind seems to become pretty much a jumble. I’m interested in anyone’s take on this.
Everything that happens is natural. It isn't a matter of whether it can happen but when it does, which natural phenomenon is behind it. Nature has plenty of tricks up its sleeves, as it stands we can barely phathom how everything even works.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
“miracles” as an untouchable topic

Oh its very very touchable. You just have not figured out how yet.

It is born of mythology and you shifted the burden of evidence on yourself when it was never YOUR burden to begin with.

Fact is miracles do not exist scientifically and fall under theology and mythology and any attempt to prove them has been pseudo science.

That is how you handle your class/lecture.

You can also cite specific examples showing they were literary creations in rhetorical mythology.

You can also cite every thing called a miracle is defined by humans as a miracle. And it is the specific definition can be refuted individually.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Things get even crazier though. Understanding everything about our universe from a human perspective means that all the knowledge will be sense based and three dimensional, as humans interpret all the information and the universe as we experience it is third dimensional.

Non sequitur.

Your not investigating quantum mechanics, your dealing with man defined mythology.

You can use academic history alone and refute almost all mythological claims.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Maricles simply are natural phenomina that are attributed special status due things like rarity of occurance or unusual circumstances and conditions. There is no question people play into that, and attribute it to God and angels and the like.

Every single maricle that has ever occured remains plausible as to what it is and how it occured, weither it's natural phenomina or a manufactured/staged event. If it has an explanation outright , or
can be explained away, is clearly not any maricle.

Maricles simply don't exist as per definition, nor do they occur in any context that defies the laws of nature, save in peoples minds and imaginations that make them genuinely real.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
The point of this thread was not to debate miracles but what can be known by human beings.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Things get even crazier though. Understanding everything about our universe from a human perspective means that all the knowledge will be sense based and three dimensional, as humans interpret all the information and the universe as we experience it is third dimensional. Yet there is absolutely no reason or ability to say that is all there is.

However, what if there is actually an invisible imp pounding on people’s brains causing their depression, and the imps happen to be put to sleep by serotonin and other such drugs?

What if you have specially evolved eyes and the unicorn moves interdimensionally? Most would laugh but only out of fear or arrogance. The simple truth is you have no idea if I have an invisible unicorn in my garage which only I can see and which moves only through the Nth dimension.

Well, Terence Mckenna made the claim that there were new dimensions in which self-dribbling elf machine basketballs yammered at him to create hyper-dimensional objects via glossolalia. Then again, his 'discoveries' are illegal, and probably shouldn't even be discussed.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
When it comes to religious issues, I subscribe to Coherence theory within epistemology. It is really the only method that works when evaluating truth claims concerning God. Foundation theory doesn't work for the simple reason that usually there are no empirical evidences for reference. So, what is needed is a mutually supporting structure of concepts which suggest the high probability for that which is not seen.

While there is little or no empirical evidence, I do not believe that we are bereft of any evidence at all. First let me say that I don't happen to believe in miracles, if by that it is meant that those "miraculous" events universally violate the laws of physics. I'll explain that statement in a minute. Second, but more importantly, miracles are not good references for evaluating "knowledge" of the unseen since we can never know, while in this sphere of existence, the mechanism for a miracle. The evidence we do have and what is useful about it is that it suggests the high probability of the existence of God. The evidences I'm referring to are the coherent, cohesive and corroborative testimonies of the prophets who claim to have interacted with God.

Other dimensions were mentioned in the op. I happen to believe there is something to that. For what it's worth, I happen to believe (based on LDS scripture) that we exist in a compartmentalized "heaven". This heaven is an encapsulated and finite subset of a greater infinite universe. Within this subset, entropy exists. Outside of it, within the infinite universe, entropy does not exist which suggests that there are a different set of "natural" laws operating there. The existence of these different laws does not explain the operation of miracles because merely considering that they exist tells us nothing about how they work. What it does suggest is that miracles are in accordance with those natural laws. I don't happen to believe God violates the laws of the universe. I just believe that He has a perfect understanding of them and is able to do things "inter-dimension-ally" because of them that appear as miracles to us.
 
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