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Force conversion is pointless

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
I never understood why people have done that in recent times or in ancient times, where you are to convert to another religion or be punished. Let's just say that if they approached to you and say "You must be a Muslim or a Hindu or suffer the consequences. "Are you really going to convert to their ways? You may say openly that you will join their religion but in secret you'll still practice your religion anyway. That's one of the reasons certain adherents like the Jews survived for so long when Christians would force convert everyone and the Jews would say that they converted to Christianity but still secretly practiced Judaism. Shouldn't the people who force convert be smart enough that the forced converts aren't really converted and are still practicing it secretly? It always seemed pointless to me. I'd still practice Druidism either way.
 

Baladas

An Págánach
Yes, they should realize this but often they seem to fail to.
It is one of the more pointless harms that we humans cause each other.
It's one thing to ban all public practice of certain religions, and another to attempt to force people into converting.
Not that I agree with the former, but it does make a certain kind of sense to me when someone is trying to solidify their control over a group of people.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
For a lot of them, it's just a matter of ego. They want everyone to agree with them, even if it's just paying lip service. So long as people bow down the right way and say the right prayers, it doesn't matter what they really believe.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Social cohesion. Reinforcement of power dislay of power. Justification of power. Creating fear. Mundane benefits..from a spiritual point of view though..no point
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Social cohesion. Reinforcement of power dislay of power. Justification of power. Creating fear. Mundane benefits..from a spiritual point of view though..no point

Yes a show of power...
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Shouldn't the people who force convert be smart enough that the forced converts aren't really converted and are still practicing it secretly?

This necessarily assumes that a person is being coerced into a belief system which is contary to their own nature, and that they naturally rebel against that belief system. by implication, that the religion is not the true one because it is not a true reflection of human nature or the nature of the universe. I think really it is a question of understanding what it means to possess the "true" faith and what it can do to a believer.
Faith is an act of submission to some higher power, without which an individual may feel alone, vulnerable and crippled; conversion is an act of communion with that higher power from which we escape this feeling of aloneness. Humans are social animals and so naturally want to associate with others (and god as the emodiment of the essence of man). If you are a 'true believer', it necessarily follows that you have such knowledge of the nature of man that you can decide what is good for another person, what is the true expression of their humanity, individuality and freedom. The belief in a higher power takes precedence over all things. To believe that you possess the 'true faith' is to possess the means to know man so completely that you can make them in the image of god, and as gods instrument, to make them in your own image; thereby you can make them good and by doing so demonstrate your own goodness. Your not forcing them to convert, your saving them from themselves whether it be their own capacity for evil, or sin, or ignroance etc. Love of god is love of man and to love man must necessarily bring him to god.
This sense of 'belonging' can however be perverted by insecurity to the extent that to demonstrate the validity of our own belief systems to ourselves, we compell others to convert to it; by making everyone else adopt the same religion we create a 'social proof' which means we avoid the anxiety of our own doubts and disbelief.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
If history and the realities of current religious demographics are any indication, clearly these things are not pointless and have contributed to the overwhelming dominance of both Christianity and Islam in the world.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I would think people would be smart enough to realize that faith cannot be forced, but too often the concern is not about the faith of another as much as it is the control of another.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
It is about control, but it'd be naïve of them to think they wouldn't secretly practice their own faith while living in society. Because they're not dealing with someone who really converted, they are just dealing with someone practicing another religion "on paper" but still practice their own faith it in their own homes,
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
You seem to think it is easy to practice in secret. Why is that?

How did the Jews do it? How did the various Pagans do it? Almost all the time they did it in their own homes or hideouts. I mean, unless they have cameras all over the place, it would be easy to do it at home. Some of course practiced less when they were being oppressed, but they managed to. If they didn't practice certain holidays, rituals ect. they passed down stories, writings prayers in secret.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
If someone wants to convert, they will require little encouragement to do so. If someone does not want to convert, nothing you say or do will make them.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
How did the Jews do it?

Funny you mention Judaism, because a story about that came to mind that I left out of my last post. I think it's important to keep in mind that cultural shifts (whether the result of active suppression or otherwise) typically take a generation or two, and that the pressures, while they may appear (or be) subtle initially, can accumulate into significant change. That I am not Jewish - that I was not raised Jewish - is a direct result of that sort of thing. Some of my ancestors a few generations back where unabashedly Jewish. When they migrated to this country, they made efforts to conform to a predominantly Christian over-culture. This was not uncommon amongst Jewish migrants, even those who migrated to places with a sizable Jewish population. Effectively, this means my ancestors hid and/or abandoned various practices. That had an impact on my Jewish parent, and then on me. There are lots of factors that went into this, but the take-home message is that cultural shifts can be slow progressions and that the impact of hiding and abandoning elements of who you are can and does lead to slow death of a tradition.


How did the various Pagans do it?

They did? Last time I checked, indigenous Paganisms were pretty thoroughly wiped out across Europe. It's why we're technically Neopagans - there's no unbroken line going on here. Elements of Pagan practices were adopted by the Christians, but the Paganisms themselves were pretty much wiped out over generations. They were also pretty thoroughly marginalized in the Americas with the European settlers. Even today, native traditions are dying out as a result of the pressures of over-culture. If I understand correctly, this is also happening right now with Islam's invasion of Africa - their indigenous Paganisms are transforming and diminishing too.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I never understood why people have done that in recent times or in ancient times, where you are to convert to another religion or be punished. Let's just say that if they approached to you and say "You must be a Muslim or a Hindu or suffer the consequences. "Are you really going to convert to their ways? You may say openly that you will join their religion but in secret you'll still practice your religion anyway. That's one of the reasons certain adherents like the Jews survived for so long when Christians would force convert everyone and the Jews would say that they converted to Christianity but still secretly practiced Judaism. Shouldn't the people who force convert be smart enough that the forced converts aren't really converted and are still practicing it secretly? It always seemed pointless to me. I'd still practice Druidism either way.

A few justifications for forced conversion has been written about by Muslim and Christian authors. Key in mind I am at odds with the justification since it can be used for cultural assimilation. One reason is not that the present individual(s) but future generations are brought up under the guise of the false converts where as without the force conversion they are not. A child could take an interest in the false rituals their parents preform in order to maintain the facade of conversion. Depending on the amount of rituals the facade convert is obligated to take part in the influence will vary. This can spark genuine true belief in that generation due to these practices thus generating a true believer and future true believer offspring. The facade and hidden religion are no longer a factor. Once the parents, false converts, die there is a net gain for the religion. This also varies due to the amount of offspring produce and the time required to produce a true believer generation. The cild could also have issues with the parent hiding their religion thus question the parents and the religion which is hidden. So on and so on. Another reason is social cohesion. If everyone acts like a believer of X religion then there is no religious diversity thus no social conflict based on different religions but only internal religious conflicts. Thus there is no scapegoat X religious minority to hate, persecuted, which is not part of the greater social group.

This is similar to assimilation of immigrants into a host society. The host's society's views are valued while the immigrants are not. The laws of the host are valid while the immigrants is not. So while an immigrant can act like an "American" they will still associate a part of their identity with their former society. While their children may have varying degrees of value their parent's culture has on their own identity. At a point a generation may put no value in their ancestors former society as the "American" society will be the only one they are exposed to. Again this benefits future generations and social cohesion rather than the individual at the time. Just to provide an example, an immigrants culture accepts polygamy as legal whereas the host nation does not. So the host culture is already forcing a change to the existing belief and practice of the immigrant. They could hid their secondary wives from the host's law system or divorce them to adhere to the law. Thus they are forced to accept a view which they do not hold in order to be a member of the host society. This is where I am at odds since people will argue assimilation is justified while forced conversion is not.

Another reason is used by assimilation and conversion is entrapment. Both have used entrapment to weed out undesirables from society. An issue is forced leaving only acceptance, lying or rejection. People will attempt to protect themselves rather than facing direct consequences of rejection or acceptance thus giving voice to a lie. Once the lie is detected the person in question is found to be in violation of a law be it secular or religious which has proscribed punishments, if any. We did this for loyalists in the American Revolution, for Communists during the Cold War, slap a label on someone and we probably have entrapped someone using such a method.
 
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Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Funny you mention Judaism, because a story about that came to mind that I left out of my last post. I think it's important to keep in mind that cultural shifts (whether the result of active suppression or otherwise) typically take a generation or two, and that the pressures, while they may appear (or be) subtle initially, can accumulate into significant change. That I am not Jewish - that I was not raised Jewish - is a direct result of that sort of thing. Some of my ancestors a few generations back where unabashedly Jewish. When they migrated to this country, they made efforts to conform to a predominantly Christian over-culture. This was not uncommon amongst Jewish migrants, even those who migrated to places with a sizable Jewish population. Effectively, this means my ancestors hid and/or abandoned various practices. That had an impact on my Jewish parent, and then on me. There are lots of factors that went into this, but the take-home message is that cultural shifts can be slow progressions and that the impact of hiding and abandoning elements of who you are can and does lead to slow death of a tradition.



They did? Last time I checked, indigenous Paganisms were pretty thoroughly wiped out across Europe. It's why we're technically Neopagans - there's no unbroken line going on here. Elements of Pagan practices were adopted by the Christians, but the Paganisms themselves were pretty much wiped out over generations. They were also pretty thoroughly marginalized in the Americas with the European settlers. Even today, native traditions are dying out as a result of the pressures of over-culture. If I understand correctly, this is also happening right now with Islam's invasion of Africa - their indigenous Paganisms are transforming and diminishing too.

Pagans were definitely not all wiped out. Their temples and customs were destroyed and suppressed but the tradition still lived on. Like with Druids who passed some of their ideas orally. If they truly wiped them out and all of their documents and so forth, we wouldn't have seen the Ogham or Runic alphabet or some of the old statues of their deities. Sometimes when a group or civilization is invaded and threated to convert to the enemy's ways, the natives will hide pieces of their culture and keep it secret. Some Pagans were force converted, but a lot of them weren't REALLY converted. Anyone can say. "Yup I believe in your deity now." but still secretly believe in their old traditions. Which makes force conversion not really effective, unless you brainwash them.

It's actually VERY difficult to wipe out an entire group of people as often, there will be small remnants of them and their cultures that's still alive even if it is practiced in secret. Speaking of Americas, it was said that some Pagans moved there and even allied them selves with the Native Americans who had traditions that were similar but different.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I never understood why people have done that in recent times or in ancient times, where you are to convert to another religion or be punished. Let's just say that if they approached to you and say "You must be a Muslim or a Hindu or suffer the consequences. "Are you really going to convert to their ways? You may say openly that you will join their religion but in secret you'll still practice your religion anyway. That's one of the reasons certain adherents like the Jews survived for so long when Christians would force convert everyone and the Jews would say that they converted to Christianity but still secretly practiced Judaism. Shouldn't the people who force convert be smart enough that the forced converts aren't really converted and are still practicing it secretly? It always seemed pointless to me. I'd still practice Druidism either way.

That is very true. I think people only do this for hidden motives rather than because they think that converting is the right thing to do. I mean everyone knows that a forced convert is meaningless because one cant force anyone's heart to be in a place where it doesn't want to be
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Forced conversion is pretty pointless. Perhaps that's why the tactics of conversions have gotten sneakier? Relying on placebo effects, social stigmatization and other underhanded tactics. I think everyone would agree that forced conversion is awful and represents human hubris far more than any God or religion.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Forced conversion is pretty pointless. Perhaps that's why the tactics of conversions have gotten sneakier? Relying on placebo effects, social stigmatization and other underhanded tactics. I think everyone would agree that forced conversion is awful and represents human hubris far more than any God or religion.

The truthful religion does not need it rather abhors it.
I agree with you.

Regards
 
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