Did you read Quran neutrally?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Did you read Quran neutrally?

There a lot of wise people in the West and the East, so it should not be problem in reading Quran neutrally , with open mind. Is it necessary to be biased?
Regards

You mean like you did?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There is no need for any evasion. It is just a wrong propaganda of the West.

Stereotypical Muslim response: blame the West. Are you calling the verses in your own holy book Western propaganda? That sounds pretty darn heretical.

One should study Quran without prejudice from cover to cover as I already explained in Post #195. I have written on the subject, please search it at RF, read it and write there.
Regards

More than a bit hypocritical of you to ask that people study the Quran without prejudice when you've more than likely never done anything of the sort.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

How does that work when these "truths" contradict?

Ever the optimist; you still hope he'll actually answer your questions.

 

[paarsurrey]

Truth is within us from G-d but we don't listen to it. Word of Revelation from G-d only reminds it or boosts it up lest we go astray. It is for this that the truthful Religion has given the name Al-Zikar to Recitation/Quran:

[15:10]Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=15​

Regards

How does that work when these "truths" contradict?

With the advent of Muhammad, humanity took a turn and a new era ushered in, G-d took the responsibility of guarding the text of Word of His Revelation and it meaning, so those whose conscience is lacking something, they could benefit from it in all times. This is a peculiarity of Islam/Quran/Muhammad not found in other religions, their scriptures and their founders.

Regards
#223

 

[firedragon]

There is no need for any evasion. It is just a wrong propaganda of the West.
One should study Quran without prejudice from cover to cover as I already explained in Post #195. I have written on the subject, please search it at RF, read it and write there.
Regards

I know that by quoting 'west' you mean the anti Islamic propaganda machine. Well, at leas I think you do.

But I would like to remind you that there are so many Muslims living in the west that you cannot use the term west the way you did. The west includes Muslims, Christians, Atheists etc. My sister is in the US. My brother is in Australia. And I have enough family and friends in the west. I was educated in the west, at least partially.

Also, if you would like to study Islam, the west is probably the best. Even their curriculums are specific to your study, not like you studying theology in a seminary. Hope you understand.

The same way a Muslim was instrumental in bringing algorithm to us, if it wasnt for the internet none of this dialog is possible. Thus, tomorrow a western Muslim might marry my daughter (No, I dont have any kids yet). And when I say west and east, I wouldnt know where to turn my head. Please dont misunderstand me, this is said with all due respect.

Peace.

 

[McBell]

With the advent of Muhammad, humanity took a turn and a new era ushered in, G-d took the responsibility of guarding the text of Word of His Revelation and it meaning, so those whose conscience is lacking something, they could benefit from it in all times. This is a peculiarity of Islam/Quran/Muhammad not found in other religions, their scriptures and their founders.

Regards
#223

ah, back to the blatant denial.

 

[paarsurrey]

Mestemia said: ↑
How does that work when these "truths" contradict?

Ever the optimist; you still hope he'll actually answer your questions.

One may like to read post #244.
Regards

 

[McBell]

Mestemia said: ↑
How does that work when these "truths" contradict?

One may like to read post #244.
Regards

I have read post #244.
Unfortunately, it does not answer the question.

Though to be honest with you, I did/do not expect an answer, just vague cop outs and irrelevant replies.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said:#213 ↑
"The religious scriptures are a different category, comparing them with books of fiction or text books of science or with manual of procedure is fallacious and misleading."

Hi paarsurrey,
You said:
It seems to me you are trying to have it both ways! If you want us to read with an open mind, or neutrally or whatever, then you CANNOT at the same time claim that the book is in a different category.

If the book mentions its subject matter in its very beginning, that clearly identifies as to what its purpose is; then why should one ignore it?
Regards
#215

 

[icehorse]

paarsurrey said:#213 ↑
"The religious scriptures are a different category, comparing them with books of fiction or text books of science or with manual of procedure is fallacious and misleading."

If the book mentions its subject matter in its very beginning, that clearly identifies as to what its purpose is; then why should one ignore it?
Regards
#215

Hi paarsurrey,

In your opinion, does the Quran identify itself as a work of fiction or as a collection of facts?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

With the advent of Muhammad, humanity took a turn and a new era ushered in,

No it didn't. The spread of Islam under Muhammed only affected the Arabs living in the Arabian peninsula. It didn't affect humanity as a whole; it didn't even benefit the Arabs because it bastardised the culture they had spent so long creating and forced them into a slave mindset they've been subject to for over a thousand years now. Even as they were building empires they were slaves to their god. The only benefits Islam has given the world has been the result of unintended side-effects of their conquests: the Arabs encountered more developed civilisations and sequestered their knowledge - then spread it to Europe on the back of more conquest.

Wikipedia quotes an unnamed Abassid Caliph as saying: "The Persians ruled for a thousand years and did not need us Arabs even for a day. We have been ruling them for one or two centuries and cannot do without them for an hour."

Even influential Arabs of the time realised how great the disparity in civilisation was between the Persians and the Arabs.

G-d took the responsibility of guarding the text of Word of His Revelation and it meaning, so those whose conscience is lacking something, they could benefit from it in all times. This is a peculiarity of Islam/Quran/Muhammad not found in other religions, their scriptures and their founders.

Not true. Christianity & Zoroastrianism make similar claims - that their messages are universal, eternal, and were either written by God or were directly inspired by him. Islam is not unique in this respect.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey,
In your opinion, does the Quran identify itself as a work of fiction or as a collection of facts?

I give a verse from Quran where G-d mentions :

[2:177] That is because Allah has sent down the Book with the truth; and surely, they who disagree concerning the Book are gone far in enmity.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=2&verse=176​

And it is 100% truthful.
Regards

 

[icehorse]

I give a verse from Quran where G-d mentions :

[2:177] That is because Allah has sent down the Book with the truth; and surely, they who disagree concerning the Book are gone far in enmity.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=2&verse=176​

And it is 100% truthful.
Regards

Okay then. If it's not fiction, then I will read it as I read any nonfiction book. I won't give it some special treatment like it's a delicate child that can't stand criticism. So if you want us to consider the Quran to not be a fictional story, and to read it neutrally, be prepared to get honest assessments. And honestly, it's not an impressive book in my experience.

Now you have to remember that I've been fortunate in my life, and I've had the opportunity to read thousands of books (for which I'm very grateful). I understand that for many Muslims, the Quran might be one of the few books they ever read. But I have read hundreds of books that I think are far better than the Quran.

 

[paarsurrey]

Okay then. If it's not fiction, then I will read it as I read any nonfiction book. I won't give it some special treatment like it's a delicate child that can't stand criticism. So if you want us to consider the Quran to not be a fictional story, and to read it neutrally, be prepared to get honest assessments. And honestly, it's not an impressive book in my experience.
Now you have to remember that I've been fortunate in my life, and I've had the opportunity to read thousands of books (for which I'm very grateful). I understand that for many Muslims, the Quran might be one of the few books they ever read. But I have read hundreds of books that I think are far better than the Quran.

The books are of many kinds and are not written in one style. A novel is different from a book of short stories, and both of them are different from a book of history, and all the three are different from a book of Mathematics etc, so on and so forth. Aren't these different? Why they have to be different? What is common in them?Please
Regards

 

[icehorse]

The books are of many kinds and are not written in one style. A novel is different from a book of short stories, and both of them are different from a book of history, and all the three are different from a book of Mathematics etc, so on and so forth. Aren't these different? Why they have to be different? What is common in them?Please
Regards

Well for our discussion, it could be enough to say we have two big categories:
- fiction
- non-fiction

Fiction is for stories (long or short) that someone made up. Stuff that never happened.
Non-fiction is for everything that is supposed to be true. So math, economics, history and so on, would all be true, and you're saying the Quran, is "true".

So, while I don't think the Quran is true, you're saying it is and we should put it in the non-fiction category, along side a math book. My point is that if that's the case, we should be able to evaluate the Quran very logically, the same way we evaluate a mathematics book.

On the other hand, some religious scholars claim that scripture should not be viewed as literally true, but more like fables that teach good ideas. A scholar like that might say that the Bible and the Quran should be considered fiction.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well for our discussion, it could be enough to say we have two big categories:
- fiction
- non-fiction
Fiction is for stories (long or short) that someone made up. Stuff that never happened.
Non-fiction is for everything that is supposed to be true. So math, economics, history and so on, would all be true, and you're saying the Quran, is "true".
So, while I don't think the Quran is true, you're saying it is and we should put it in the non-fiction category, along side a math book. My point is that if that's the case, we should be able to evaluate the Quran very logically, the same way we evaluate a mathematics book.
On the other hand, some religious scholars claim that scripture should not be viewed as literally true, but more like fables that teach good ideas. A scholar like that might say that the Bible and the Quran should be considered fiction.

Quran is a different category. It is not-fiction, for sure.*
The knowledge containing in the Mathematics, History, Chemistry, Physics etc, etc, etc is not real in real terms but only in temporary terms.
Regards

*
[8:31]And remember the time when the disbelievers plotted against thee that they might imprison thee or kill thee or expel thee. And they planned and Allah also planned, and Allah is the Best of planners.
[8:32]And when Our verses are recited to them, they say, ‘We have heard. If we wished we could certainly utter the like of this. This is nothing but mere tales of the ancients.’
[8:33]And remember the time when they said, ‘O Allah, if this be indeed the truth from Thee, then rain down upon us stones from heaven or bring down upon us a grievous punishment.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=8&verse=31

 

[icehorse]

Hi paarsurrey,

An amazing thing just happened to me! Allah spoke to me! He told me that I am to be his new messenger! Here is a part of what he said:

1 - icehorse is Allah's new and final messenger.
2 - everything icehorse says is true.

Now I, icehorse, Allah's new messenger, say that the Quran is wrong.

Let me ask you paarsurrey, do you believe me? Will you now throw out the Quran and follow me?

My guess is that you won't. But why not? I declared that everything I say is true, isn't that enough for you? Isn't that proof? I told you that everything I say is true! Are you a non-believer? I gave you proof didn't I?

paarsurrey, whatever you just experienced is similar to what I experience (and all those who don't believe the Quran experience), when you quote the Quran in a thread like this. It is NOT proof of anything. And remember, everything I say is true, Allah recently said so!

(Note: I'm kidding, I didn't recently hear from Allah. But! I can pretend I did, and paarsurrey, if I do, I can argue any idea with you and I can declare that I have "proof" in the form of what Allah just told me. And you will quickly see that you never believe my "proof". When you quote the Quran, it is NOT PROOF.)

 

[Muffled]

There is only one truth, and that truth is that we and everything else is One, call that Oneness God, Consciousness, the Source, or whatever, it doesn't matter because whatever label we use isn't that which IS. Truth cannot be found in any scripture, scripture can only point to truth, but we must experience truth to truly know what it is, and that can only be do0ne by each one of us, as soon as we label that truth, we then lose it.

I believe your belief that it is true does not make it true.

 

[Muffled]

Did you read Quran neutrally?

There a lot of wise people in the West and the East, so it should not be problem in reading Quran neutrally , with open mind. Is it necessary to be biased?
Regards

I believe for me it was necessary to be true to God and not to read with my own understanding.

 

[Muffled]

Hi paarsurrey,

An amazing thing just happened to me! Allah spoke to me! He told me that I am to be his new messenger! Here is a part of what he said:

1 - icehorse is Allah's new and final messenger.
2 - everything icehorse says is true.

Now I, icehorse, Allah's new messenger, say that the Quran is wrong.

Let me ask you paarsurrey, do you believe me? Will you now throw out the Quran and follow me?

My guess is that you won't. But why not? I declared that everything I say is true, isn't that enough for you? Isn't that proof? I told you that everything I say is true! Are you a non-believer? I gave you proof didn't I?

paarsurrey, whatever you just experienced is similar to what I experience (and all those who don't believe the Quran experience), when you quote the Quran in a thread like this. It is NOT proof of anything. And remember, everything I say is true, Allah recently said so!

(Note: I'm kidding, I didn't recently hear from Allah. But! I can pretend I did, and paarsurrey, if I do, I can argue any idea with you and I can declare that I have "proof" in the form of what Allah just told me. And you will quickly see that you never believe my "proof". When you quote the Quran, it is NOT PROOF.)

I believe you have admitted what you say isn't true but God has never said that.

I believe here is where one may test a spirit to see if it is from God. If that spirit denies the word of God it is not from God.