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Abram

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Ya see, I'm not out to make a bunch clones like the Jw's are.

Well actually, "sheep" is probably the more correct terminology. Some people might think that sheep are stupid, but in the Middle East in Bible times, they were a valuable asset. When shepherds would get together at night round their campfires, their flocks would intermingle. Today that would be a nightmare, but back then, the sheep knew their shepherd and when he called then, they all dispersed from the collective flock and followed the voice of their own shepherd. Separating sheep from goats was carried out in a similar way.

Since Jesus is called the "fine shepherd" who knows his sheep and his sheep know him, they do not follow the voice of strangers. If we are not part of the flock, he doesn't know us. If we do not recognise him as our shepherd, we will not follow his voice. So I am a happy sheep, grateful to be part of the flock. :) The fine shepherd takes good care of us.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Well actually, "sheep" is probably the more correct terminology. Some people might think that sheep are stupid, but in the Middle East in Bible times, they were a valuable asset. When shepherds would get together at night round their campfires, their flocks would intermingle. Today that would be a nightmare, but back then, the sheep knew their shepherd and when he called then, they all dispersed from the collective flock and followed the voice of their own shepherd. Separating sheep from goats was carried out in a similar way.

Since Jesus is called the "fine shepherd" who knows his sheep and his sheep know him, they do not follow the voice of strangers. If we are not part of the flock, he doesn't know us. If we do not recognise him as our shepherd, we will not follow his voice. So I am a happy sheep, grateful to be part of the flock. :) The fine shepherd takes good care of us.

No he doesn't. You all have jobs.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You take the ultimate act of love on the part of two of the most powerful beings in existence and put an entirely flawed human spin on their motives.
I've witnessed "acts of love" - I'm sure we all have. And I don't think we equate them with a being offering up another being (a "perfect" being, no less) to suffer pain and death.

God's laws are perfect...so perfect, in fact that he abides by them himself. His stated law was "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life". This was non negotiable. The law demanded equivalency. Anyone who took a life was to pay with his own.
I have to ask here - who truly took Jesus' life? Was it those mortals present that day? Truly? Or did God send him into that position, in fact knowing full well he would die? This is what it means to make the sacrifice of another - you break the commandment "thou shalt not kill". Just think of the train-track moral dilemma - 5 people are on the tracks and unaware a train is coming, but you can switch the track and have it divert onto another where only one person is sitting, again unaware they could be killed. Do you switch the track and save 5 lives, but decide the fate of that other 1? That is making the decision to kill, and is precisely what God did.

A perfect life was lost and only an equivalent perfect life could cancel the debt and rescue Adam's offspring.
This is entirely arbitrary and nonsensical. God is supposedly all powerful. He makes the rules - He could break and remake them - it is useless to argue otherwise - it is within His power to do so. He could have raised Jesus, or not have even had him sacrificed and still have forgiven us all - delivered us the same grace. It is all within His power. And because of that, the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't even really a sacrifice at all.

If I had some strange power to regrow limbs and we both knew that if I cut off my right-hand I could grow it back, would it mean much to you if I made a promise on my right hand? That I would offer to cut it off and "sacrifice" it if the promise was broken? No, it wouldn't mean anything, because in the end I am not really sacrificing anything. I have the power to bring myself back to whatever state I choose.

The insignificance of humankind (compared to those who dwell in the spiritual realm) is unimaginable.
I placed in parens the part of the above quote that could be taken out to garner my wholehearted agreement.

God did not by-pass his law, nor did he just wipe out the rebels and start again. He had endowed his intelligent creation with free will.
What you call "free will" I call human nature.

He leaves that choice to you and me.....we need to make sure that our decisions are based on truth and not some twisted view provided by God's enemy.
We choose whether to respect and live well alongside our fellow members of humanity - regardless our views on God. That is the pertinent choice we make here on Earth. Not whether or not we answer, or pretend to answer to an invisible being who supposedly loves mankind, but refuses to interact with us.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
God doesn't need our approval to carry out his purpose. He doesn't need anything from any of us...the fact is, we need him to keep living. Only a fool bites the hand that feeds him. Only a fool portends to know better than God.

If we have problems with the way God is conducting himself I am sure he is aware of our criticisms. The thing is...he is God and we are not. Humans do not get to dictate to the Creator about how to do the right thing. o_O

He has no Complaints Dept. :)

Have a nice day.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
God doesn't need our approval to carry out his purpose. He doesn't need anything from any of us...the fact is, we need him to keep living. Only a fool bites the hand that feeds him. Only a fool portends to know better than God.

If we have problems with the way God is conducting himself I am sure he is aware of our criticisms. The thing is...he is God and we are not. Humans do not get to dictate to the Creator about how to do the right thing. o_O

He has no Complaints Dept. :)

Have a nice day.

How can you be sure of anything the Bible God says outside the Bible? All you produce are words from a book that YOU have chosen to be from some God, yet that God never speaks an audible word anywhere outside the Bible.

Your God really are the words written by humans pretending to hear from a God and you bought them.
 

arthra

Baha'i
How can you be sure of anything the Bible God says outside the Bible? All you produce are words from a book that YOU have chosen to be from some God, yet that God never speaks an audible word anywhere outside the Bible.

Your God really are the words written by humans pretending to hear from a God and you bought them.

Actually in my view had the Bible just been a projection of fantasy it would not have lasted as long as it did... there were many religious books that have not had the influence the Bible has had...

So first, were spiritual experiences..

and these experiences influenced peoples' behaviour.

Finally they were recorded over a very long time!

The Bible you could say is a record of interaction with the Divine over a thousand year period... that's pretty remarkable in and of itself.

The Bible also has inspirational thoughts that influence people to this day. It still "speaks" to people.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Bible you could say is a record of interaction with the Divine over a thousand year period... that's pretty remarkable in and of itself.
The Bible also has inspirational thoughts that influence people to this day.

I agree with you.
Bible has glimpses of the conversation between G-d and humans; though narrators/scribes/clergy have made it foggy. The core teachings are good.
It could be purified and made more useful.

Regards
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So many excuses are made for why Abraham knew God wasn't going to let him go through with it, that God had made other pledges to him that would indicate that somehow it would be made right. Because we know it would be wrong for a father to sacrifice his son.

But think on this - God didn't stay His own hand. He sacrificed His son. It doesn't matter who it was for - it makes Him no father I want to have. If God exists, then He offered my brother to be killed.

Brother to the Carpenter?...indeed.
He did say of Himself .....brother and fellow servant.

However, I don't believe God did the sacrifice.
I believe Jesus rode into the Holy City knowing what would happen.

That would be Him, laying down His life for you.

still.....though Jesus knew what would happen....
I don't think His death saved anyone.
I say.....His parables are the saving grace.
His life and teachings are the salvation.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
btw...God stays His Hand continually.
He gave Man dominion and the ills of this life belong to Man.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
God doesn't need our approval to carry out his purpose. He doesn't need anything from any of us...the fact is, we need him to keep living. Only a fool bites the hand that feeds him. Only a fool portends to know better than God.

If we have problems with the way God is conducting himself I am sure he is aware of our criticisms. The thing is...he is God and we are not. Humans do not get to dictate to the Creator about how to do the right thing. o_O

He has no Complaints Dept. :)

Have a nice day.

But don't you see? You're exactly right - He doesn't need our approval - in fact it is utterly asinine to think He needs ANYTHING from us. Completely arrogant to assume we do Him any service with our life on this planet. And no, I don't care what a book tells you He has told us - I don't. And do you know why? I don't/can't put my trust in secondhand knowledge or experience when it comes to things that make no sense, can't be experienced and have produced no verifiable evidence save for a bunch of human beings (flawed beings) who "witness" something. So some people wrote a book and said it was inspired by God. So? I could write anything I wanted with a sharpie on a couple thousand Post-It notes, or dedicate my life to scratching those things into stone and claim it was all "inspired by God". You'd call me a whack-job, and with good reason.

If He exists, God is all powerful - and that means "ALL". He is capable of lying, deceit, misdirection, malignance, betrayal, because those are all certainly a part of "ALL" - and whatever God does is the "right" thing - even the stuff that isn't so good for humanity, or things we would deem immoral by our standards. He alone is able to act with impunity. He has no one to answer to. He can employ any ability at His service for or against us - and even though He has such great "love", He doesn't seem to want to interact with us in any but enigmatic and mysterious ways - sometimes for, sometimes against, seemingly random. Last I checked, that kind of behavior wouldn't be interpreted as "love". I certainly do not interpret it as such. And if my son, who I love greatly, were to say such things about my behavior, you can be damn sure I'd do something to try and correct it. Something as big as I could muster. And as I say that, remember that God has no boundaries.

And even as I say all of that I know as you have said - "God has no complaints department". In fact I know it better than you do - because all of the above is nothing more than my "proof" to myself that He isn't even really there to complain to.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
back to topic.....

Do you think Abraham's son had a change of mind about 'dear old dad'?

Following a man that had raised a blade against you.....do you keep relation?....beyond arm's reach?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So you want to say it's only a story.

Did you get the point?
Care to say what that might be?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Abram and Abraham (or Ibrahim) are two different characters.

The Jewish narrators/scribes/clergy had copycatted the story of Abram.
One would like to read the following:

Anyone who has done an ounce of research into the whole Camels issue, already knows that Mesopotamia had domesticated camels long before the Egyptians or anyone else, yet that is not the point! The fact is that evidence clearly indicates that Camels were not domesticated in Egypt until around 1000 BCE and in the Gen, narrative we have the Pharoah giving Abram Camels in return for the prostitution of Abram's wife/sister! This according to all of the leading authorities in the field of biblical and secular Archaeology is an anachronism! In particular, see the work of prof. Finkelstien, Tel Aviv University and Prof. Ze'ev Herzog also of the Tel Aviv University. Even the Conservative Christian Biblical Archaeologist, William F. Albright came to this conclusion. This "new discovery" demonstrates nothing that has not already been known in the past, yet it does not overturn the consensus of Biblical and Achaeological Scholarship at present, which is; the reference to camels is an anachronism (fiction). When evidence comes to light which contradicts the present view, I will be the first to examine it and if it holds weight, I will say, Yes, camels were domesticated prior to the end of the 2nd millenium BCE.

Feb 9, 2012 Post #12 by michaelsherlock
The Genesis Fraud Part 1 | ReligiousForums.com
Regards
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
But don't you see? You're exactly right - He doesn't need our approval - in fact it is utterly asinine to think He needs ANYTHING from us. Completely arrogant to assume we do Him any service with our life on this planet.

And yet he does require something from us....not something that benefits him necessarily but benefits ourselves and preserves the gift of life he has bestowed on us. Do have any idea of the odds against our existence?...not as a species, but as individuals? The fact that you are you, and I am me, is an astronomical fluke of human genetics in the chance meeting of the two individuals who made us. I for one, appreciate that I am me, and I have life, and I have a hope for the future that does not depend on the corrupt humans who rule this world.

And no, I don't care what a book tells you He has told us - I don't. And do you know why? I don't/can't put my trust in secondhand knowledge or experience when it comes to things that make no sense, can't be experienced and have produced no verifiable evidence save for a bunch of human beings (flawed beings) who "witness" something. So some people wrote a book and said it was inspired by God. So? I could write anything I wanted with a sharpie on a couple thousand Post-It notes, or dedicate my life to scratching those things into stone and claim it was all "inspired by God". You'd call me a whack-job, and with good reason.

Yes, you could write a book like many others have, but will it still be read by believers thousands of years into the future, guiding their path in life?

The Bible has been preserved down through centuries of time despite many attempts by humans to destroy it. It remains at the top of the best seller list in spite of all that. The power of the words of this book cannot be denied, despite the fact that those who claim to believe in its author continue to disregard its laws and principles and go on spilling blood in all the earth. Those who truly live by the Bible are at peace...true peace, with God and their fellow man. No one can break that.

If He exists, God is all powerful - and that means "ALL". He is capable of lying, deceit, misdirection, malignance, betrayal, because those are all certainly a part of "ALL" - and whatever God does is the "right" thing - even the stuff that isn't so good for humanity, or things we would deem immoral by our standards.

You have no idea who or what this God is. He is incapable of lying. He does not deceive, misdirect or betray anyone....it is humans who do that in imitation of their god.....the one the Bible says is capable of "blinding the minds of unbelievers". (2 Cor 4:3, 4)
This is a unique blindness because it is not acknowledged by those afflicted with it.

He alone is able to act with impunity. He has no one to answer to. He can employ any ability at His service for or against us - and even though He has such great "love", He doesn't seem to want to interact with us in any but enigmatic and mysterious ways - sometimes for, sometimes against, seemingly random. Last I checked, that kind of behavior wouldn't be interpreted as "love". I certainly do not interpret it as such.

He CAN act with impunity and yes, he has no one to answer to....BUT he is a being who operates by perfect justice. True justice is not tempered by sentiment....it is tempered by mercy. Do you know the difference?

God has attributes that balance all his qualities, but all are tempered by his dominant quality of love. He disciplines his children when they need it...don't we do that? Does our discipline hurt them? It would be a waste of time if it didn't. Do we discipline our children because we hate them, or because we love them? Don't we want them to learn something? If you cannot see God's discipline for what it is, then your reasoning is faulty.

If you understood the whole picture instead of staring at what you believe are a few 'dead pixels', you might be able to see past your anger and frustration that is a result of believing in a wrong premise to begin with. He does interact with humans on a very personal (but not miraculous) level, but he allows us to either come to him, or walk away from him as an exercise of our free will. When we make choices, especially ones that mean life or death, we had better be fully informed.....I see you have very little information, instead basing your opinions on a few acts of God that you do not understand.

When Jesus walked the earth he taught the people by means of illustrations. He offered the hope of the kingdom and allowed people to make up their own minds. He did not chase after those who did not understand, but allowed their own hearts to dictate their response. God requires faith, not just robotic obedience.

Jesus cured the sick and raised the dead as a demonstration of what will be done under the rule of his kingdom. It was for a time and a reason. His apostles were also given these gifts because they were going to become the 12 foundation stones of that kingdom bringing its blessings to all who remain faithful, despite the activities of a vengeful enemy whose sole purpose is to discredit God. The ones who fall for his hateful propaganda will have no such future to look forward to.

And if my son, who I love greatly, were to say such things about my behavior, you can be damn sure I'd do something to try and correct it. Something as big as I could muster. And as I say that, remember that God has no boundaries.

But what if your son said those things because he listened to a liar who slandered you and falsely accused you? What would your response be then? The God who of the Bible is in a legal contest with a powerful enemy. He has witnesses and so does his enemy. But he gave us free will to decide who to believe and that will can be manipulated by a clever con artist with the right propaganda. Do people know when they are being conned? Usually not until they have lost everything. The devil is such a deceiver. The Bible is the manual that teaches us how to identify his MO. Ignore it at your peril.

And even as I say all of that I know as you have said - "God has no complaints department". In fact I know it better than you do - because all of the above is nothing more than my "proof" to myself that He isn't even really there to complain to.

When I said that God has no "complaints dept" I was referring to the complaints of unbelievers. God is under no obligation to those who have cast him off or who are constantly whining about their lot, as if it is his fault. But for those who embrace him...they are embraced in return. (James 4:8) You have obviously never experienced that. I have, and the reality of my God and his direction in my life are very real. You can't shake your fist at him and expect him to respond. It requires an attitude of trust and humility. Faith does not come easily, but if you are the kind of person that God wants as a citizen in his kingdom, then you will receive an invitation to get to know him. Hostility and animosity will always be a barrier. Unrealistic expectations will be disappointed because they come from ignorance. Educate yourself about God and his activities. The knowledge is there for the taking.

If you really knew the Creator and understood the reasons for why he has done what he has done in the world, you would see where we are in the stream of time and where it will all end. Where we find ourselves at that time, will be the result of our own choices.
 
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