Accusations of Pauline Christianity people on Jesus

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Regards

Click to expand...

Wrong, it is as per Bible. Jesus died on the cross.

You can not kill Christ.

Regards

paarsurrey said:

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Regards

Click to expand...

Of what I recall, Islam and Gnostics do not believe Christ died on the cross, but yes, Red-letter Christians and Paulinian Christians, both do, sooooo
Clarity of your OP, please?

TransmutingSoul said:

Wrong, it is as per Bible.

You can not kill Christ.

Click to expand...

You can kill Christ's body but you cannot kill His soul.
As per Baha'i Writings.

paarsurrey said:

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Regards

Click to expand...

Here is the answer to the claim you made with zero evidence. Isaiah 11:1a And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, this states that the Rod, i.e., Jesus would be chosen from the many descendants of King David’s father, Jesse. Then in Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles; this says that He would be chosen to bring judgement to the Gentiles in Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek, and they sure did that, and his rest shall be glorious. The Gentiles are exclusively from Japheth in Gen 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. i.e., the Europeans. Isa 42:4 states that He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles (of the Gentiles) shall wait for his law. Then, in Isaiah 53:10, we see that it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou (we) shalt make his soul an offering for sin, but, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. We see here that His descendants, from before He was crucified, shall prosper until such time as God decides, at the End days, that it is time to choose a descendant of Jesus in Isaiah 11:1b, a Branch shall grow out of his roots, as the minimum standard of acceptance to pass through the Narrow Gate. The Lamb without blemish, i.e., Jesus, is the other side of the Gate.

Because of the above, how can you say that the Man Jesus did not go to the cross willingly to offer His life as a sacrifice for our past sins? In case you say, “How would Isaiah have known these things?” He knew because God inspired him of what He intended to do, when it was time. I shall discuss the divinity of Jesus claimed by Paul, another time. JC2

paarsurrey said:

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Regards

Click to expand...

How magnanimous of you, love the murderers equally with the victims. I will lay London to a pinch of **** poop that you do not practice what you preach. You will note that Jesus only said in Matthew 5:39, I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. However, if he tries to kill you, defend yourself with as much force as necessary. It is ridiculous to do otherwise. JC2

During COVID shutdowns i took the opportunity to go searching for external evidence that supports the Bible. Historical sources are very hard to deny and one of them on this very subject is below...




The above should not be confused with what is said to be a fraudulent letter written by Pontius Pilot

Letter of Pilate to Tiberius​

What is 100% certain is that historically Jesus Christ really existed and was crucified. Of those things there is absolutely no doubt. What we cannot prove beyond doubt using external evidence is whether or not He (Jesus) rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. That requires faith and the internal biblical evidence.

Spice said:

Of what I recall, Islam and Gnostics do not believe Christ died on the cross, but yes, Red-letter Christians and Paulinian Christians, both do, sooooo
Clarity of your OP, please?

Click to expand...

Re Islam

If you are interested in a more detailed discussion, the following is a journal article on the topic. Obviously, the answer to a question like this depends a lot on the methodological framework you apply to the question. Also if you accept the Islamic position that it was only a likeness of him that was crucified, all of the eyewitnesses would still see 'Jesus' being crucified.

Here's one view though:

The Muslim Jesus: Dead or alive?

According to most classical Muslim commentators the Quran teaches that Jesus did not die. On the day of the crucifixion another person – whether his disciple or his betrayer – was miraculously transformed and assumed the appearance of Jesus. He was taken away, crucified, and killed, while Jesus was assumed body and soul into heaven. Most critical scholars accept that this is indeed the Quran’s teaching, even if the Quran states explicitly only that the Jews did not kill Jesus. In the present paper I con- tend that the Quran rather accepts that Jesus died, and indeed alludes to his role as a witness against his murderers in the apocalypse. The paper begins with an analysis of the Quran’s references to the death of Jesus, continues with a description of classical Muslim exegesis of those references, and concludes with a presentation of the Quran’s conversation with Jewish and Christian tradition on the matter of Jesus’ death.

https://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_files/jesus dead or alive.pdf


Reynolds' concludes with his opinion that:


If tafsīr indeed provides an accurate explanation of the Quran’s original, intended meaning, then nowhere should the explanation be clearer than in the case of the Crucifixion. If the Prophet Muḣammad announced to his companions that Jesus never died, but rather someone who was made miraculously to look like him died in his place, i.e. if he gave a historical account of the crucifixion which fundamentally contra- dicts that which Jews and Christians had been reporting for hundreds of years, then certainly such a revolutionary account – if any – would be well remembered and well preserved. But, quite to the contrary, the reports of the mufassirūn are inconsistent and often contradictory. They have all of the tell-tale signs of speculative exegesis.

This strikes me as reason enough for critical scholars to read this quranic passage in light of earlier (i.e. Jewish and Christian) and not later (i.e. Islamic exegesis) literature. When the Quran is read in this light, it quickly becomes apparent that the passage on the crucifixion is fully in line with Christian anti-Jewish rhetoric. A major theme of this rhetoric, of course, is the portrayal of the Jews as prophet-killers. Accordingly the Quran, in sūrat al-nisā’ (4) 155, accuses the Jews of “murdering the prophets”. When the Quran then alludes to the crucifixion just two verses later, it means to give the cardinal example of just such a murder.

Trailblazer said:

You can kill Christ's body but you cannot kill His soul.
As per Baha'i Writings.

Click to expand...

You cannot kill anyone's soul.

Ben Dhyan said:

You cannot kill anyone's soul.

Click to expand...

No you can't, because the soul is immortal.

Accusations of Pauline Christianity people on Jesus​

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

TransmutingSoul said:

Wrong, it is as per Bible. Jesus died on the cross.

You can not kill Christ.

Regards

Click to expand...

Then why does the Pauline-Christianity's Bible, never written by (Jesus)/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah (wrongly called a Christ) himself and or dictated by him and or written by a person expressly/unambiguously authorised by Yeshua; purports to kill him on the Cross, please, right??

Regards

Spice said:

Of what I recall, Islam and Gnostics do not believe Christ died on the cross, but yes, Red-letter Christians and Paulinian Christians, both do, sooooo
Clarity of your OP, please?

Click to expand...

First please let us know as to what the colors of the letters have to do with the Religion of (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah (wrongly called Christ) , please, right??
Yeshua never claimed to be a Christian (or most correctly a Pauline-Christian), as he never went to a Church, and he was born as an Israelite of his mother who was also an Israelite (none of both of them ever belonged to the Religion knows as "Judaism" and its followers as "Jews/Zionists", please, right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Regards

Click to expand...

Jesus is a great story, and that is a problem. Romans love to adopt histories that are embellished. We cannot take the Roman historians at face value. His story is marvelous and also a lot too similar to the stories of previous myths that the Romans were very familiar with. Previously there were stories of demi-gods born of virgins etc. Its almost as if Jesus copies them. A Roman would like this idea. Because of this there are plenty of reasons to doubt Jesus ever existed starting with Rome's penchant for inventing history. Read the introduction to Livy's (Titus Livius) history. He tells you straightforwardly that Romans liked to have an enchanted and representative history rather than a literal one.

However many people believe Jesus both exists and existed. You believe it. There is no evidence that is acceptable however. He leaves no traces for you and I. He appears to the 500 after his resurrection, but he doesn't appear to you or I. For the apostles he does lots of miracles, but you and I only get to hear the stories about them.

Does he die? Does he live? These questions have equal weight.

The Spirit of Truth said:

Here is the answer to the claim you made with zero evidence. Isaiah 11:1a And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, this states that the Rod, i.e., Jesus would be chosen from the many descendants of King David’s father, Jesse. Then in Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles; this says that He would be chosen to bring judgement to the Gentiles in Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek, and they sure did that, and his rest shall be glorious. The Gentiles are exclusively from Japheth in Gen 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. i.e., the Europeans. Isa 42:4 states that He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles (of the Gentiles) shall wait for his law. Then, in Isaiah 53:10, we see that it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou (we) shalt make his soul an offering for sin, but, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. We see here that His descendants, from before He was crucified, shall prosper until such time as God decides, at the End days, that it is time to choose a descendant of Jesus in Isaiah 11:1b, a Branch shall grow out of his roots, as the minimum standard of acceptance to pass through the Narrow Gate. The Lamb without blemish, i.e., Jesus, is the other side of the Gate.

Because of the above, how can you say that the Man Jesus did not go to the cross willingly to offer His life as a sacrifice for our past sins? In case you say, “How would Isaiah have known these things?” He knew because God inspired him of what He intended to do, when it was time. I shall discuss the divinity of Jesus claimed by Paul, another time. JC2

Click to expand...

"i.e.,"
One's whole "evidence", as suggested by one's above ^ expression consists of one's wrong interpretation/s originated from Paul, so one is a follower of Paul neither of (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, nor of Moses and their truthful teachings and deeds, please, right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

Accusations of Pauline Christianity people on Jesus​

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Then why does the Pauline-Christianity's Bible, never written by (Jesus)/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah (wrongly called a Christ) himself and or dictated by him and or written by a person expressly/unambiguously authorised by Yeshua; purports to kill him on the Cross, please, right??

Regards

Click to expand...

God gave us the Bible paarsurrey, no matter how it was compiled, as a lasting testimony of Jesus the Christ.

5:46 Then in the footsteps of the prophets, We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing.

47 So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.

So paarsurrey, verse 48

"We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences."

Regards Tony

paarsurrey said:
1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christians say that Jesus died, right?

The Spirit of Truth said:

How magnanimous of you, love the murderers equally with the victims. I will lay London to a pinch of **** poop that you do not practice what you preach. You will note that Jesus only said in Matthew 5:39, I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. However, if he tries to kill you, defend yourself with as much force as necessary. It is ridiculous to do otherwise. JC2

Click to expand...

" Matthew 5:39 " is/was not written by "Matthew" , one of the twelve disciples, but it was written by some anonymous narrator, that got popular with the Paulines, please, right?

Regards

Augustus said:

Re Islam

If you are interested in a more detailed discussion, the following is a journal article on the topic. Obviously, the answer to a question like this depends a lot on the methodological framework you apply to the question. Also if you accept the Islamic position that it was only a likeness of him that was crucified, all of the eyewitnesses would still see 'Jesus' being crucified.

Here's one view though:

The Muslim Jesus: Dead or alive?

According to most classical Muslim commentators the Quran teaches that Jesus did not die. On the day of the crucifixion another person – whether his disciple or his betrayer – was miraculously transformed and assumed the appearance of Jesus. He was taken away, crucified, and killed, while Jesus was assumed body and soul into heaven. Most critical scholars accept that this is indeed the Quran’s teaching, even if the Quran states explicitly only that the Jews did not kill Jesus. In the present paper I con- tend that the Quran rather accepts that Jesus died, and indeed alludes to his role as a witness against his murderers in the apocalypse. The paper begins with an analysis of the Quran’s references to the death of Jesus, continues with a description of classical Muslim exegesis of those references, and concludes with a presentation of the Quran’s conversation with Jewish and Christian tradition on the matter of Jesus’ death.

https://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_files/jesus dead or alive.pdf


Reynolds' concludes with his opinion that:


If tafsīr indeed provides an accurate explanation of the Quran’s original, intended meaning, then nowhere should the explanation be clearer than in the case of the Crucifixion. If the Prophet Muḣammad announced to his companions that Jesus never died, but rather someone who was made miraculously to look like him died in his place, i.e. if he gave a historical account of the crucifixion which fundamentally contra- dicts that which Jews and Christians had been reporting for hundreds of years, then certainly such a revolutionary account – if any – would be well remembered and well preserved. But, quite to the contrary, the reports of the mufassirūn are inconsistent and often contradictory. They have all of the tell-tale signs of speculative exegesis.

This strikes me as reason enough for critical scholars to read this quranic passage in light of earlier (i.e. Jewish and Christian) and not later (i.e. Islamic exegesis) literature. When the Quran is read in this light, it quickly becomes apparent that the passage on the crucifixion is fully in line with Christian anti-Jewish rhetoric. A major theme of this rhetoric, of course, is the portrayal of the Jews as prophet-killers. Accordingly the Quran, in sūrat al-nisā’ (4) 155, accuses the Jews of “murdering the prophets”. When the Quran then alludes to the crucifixion just two verses later, it means to give the cardinal example of just such a murder.

Click to expand...

" Islamic position "

Here is the Islamic position, right?:
30 Verses of the Holy Quran which prove the Natural Death of Jesus ...
Islam Ahmadiyya › Library › Jesus - A Humble Prophet of God

Proof: This means that Jesus Christ(as) did not suffer an accursed death by dying on the cross.

Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

First please let us know as to what the colors of the letters have to do with the Religion of (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah (wrongly called Christ) , please, right??

Click to expand...

A "Red-letter Christian" means they put little to no authority to the words of Paul. They take the name from the Bible publications that put the words of Jesus in red font.
IMO, he most truly earned his anointing, therefore the title of Christ upon his baptism.

paarsurrey said:

Yeshua never claimed to be a Christian (or most correctly a Pauline-Christian), as he never went to a Church, and he was born as an Israelite of his mother who was also an Israelite

Click to expand...

Totally agree.

paarsurrey said:

(none of both of them ever belonged to the Religion knows as "Judaism" and its followers as "Jews/Zionists", please, right?

Click to expand...

In my view, Jesus [Yeshua] was a devout Jew. I don't believe he was a Zealot by any means, nor a Sadducee, but a Pharisee with strong Essenes leanings in his beliefs.

paarsurrey said:

Regards

Click to expand...

Namaste

paarsurrey said:

paarsurrey said:
1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christians say that Jesus died, right?

" Matthew 5:39 " is/was not written by "Matthew" , one of the twelve disciples, but it was written by some anonymous narrator, that got popular with the Paulines, please, right?

Regards

Click to expand...

Not necessarily, at least not the original Gospel. The Gospels of Mark and Matthew were the original sermon points of the New Jewish Christian movement led by James the Just. The author, true, is not believed to be the Apostle Matthew, but a follower of his ministry many decades later. The same with each Gospel -- "The Good News" according to the ministry of the named, but written afterwards by a follower, Luke being the most directly related to the Paulinian movement.

paarsurrey said:

1. First, Jesus never died on the Cross even then Pauline Christian say that Jesus died, right?

Regards

Click to expand...

Wrong. Most historians of antiquity, even atheists, believe Jesus was a real person who died through crucifixion.