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The Garden of Eden

DavidSMoore

Member
Why did God evict Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden? Christian dogma holds that God kicked them out because they violated his directive not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But that’s not the whole story. Here’s what the Bible actually says:
Then the LORD God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”-- therefore the LORD God send them forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which they were taken.
(Genesis 3:22-23, NRSVue)
God didn’t want them to have both knowledge of good and evil and eternal life, so he threw them out to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life. So the moral of this story is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance that humanity had for eternal life by getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden and thereby no longer being able to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament was written-- except for the book of Daniel. That is the only book of the Old Testament that specifically describes the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, eternal life, and paradise-- all four of those things.

Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what the world of biblical scholarship said about the matter more than 25 years ago:
The final chapter of this part of Daniel, Chapter 12, contains the Hebrew Bible’s first and only statement concerning reward and punishment after death. The postresurrection rewards of those Jews who die in obedience to God’s commands are as sure as the eternal punishment of those who achieve earthly success at the expense of their fellow Jews.
(The Oxford History of the Biblical World, ed. by Michael Coogan, 1998, Oxford University Press)

There’s plenty of evidence from the biblical text itself that on the whole the Old Testament authors didn’t believe in the New Testament notion of the resurrection. Here’s an excerpt from the Psalms:
I am like those who have no help,
like those forsaken among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
(Psalm 88:5, NRSVue)
If God doesn’t remember those who are dead, then he can’t forgive their sins. If the dead are cut off from God’s hand, then he can’t resurrect them.

Chapter 2 of the book of Isaiah describes the author’s vision of the end of time:
In the days to come
the mountain of the LORD’s house
shall be established as the highest of the mountains
and shall be raised above the hills; all the nations shall stream to it.
(Isaiah 2:2, NRSVue)

What is most significant about the author’s words is what they do not say. There’s no mention of the resurrection of the dead, of the last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. But here’s what he says will happen:

He shall judge between the nations
and shall arbitrate for many peoples;
they shall beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation;
neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isaiah 2:4, NRSVue)
That’s a description of farmers living in peace with the farmers of other nations. That’s not a description of angelic beings playing laudatory music in the vault of heaven.

In Zechariah Chapter 14 the author describes his vision of the end of time. Prior to that time the enemies of Jerusalem will surround the city:
See, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of reeling for all the surrounding peoples; all who lift it shall grievously hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth shall come together against it.
(Zechariah 12:3, NRSVue)

But God will appear and will battle against the gathered nations:
Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
(Zechariah 14:3, NRSVue)

God will bring about the destruction of Jerusalem’s enemies. And what then?
Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths.
(Zechariah 14:16, NRSVue)

What is the Festival of Booths? It’s a Jewish religious observance. So in Zechariah’s vision everyone who survives the existential battle for Jerusalem will ultimately be converted to Judaism. And they will be required to go into the city of Jerusalem every year to observe the Festival of Booths. As far as I am aware there are no Christian sects that observe the Festival of Booths.

And as in Isaiah there is no mention anywhere in Zechariah of the resurrection of the dead, of a last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. The visions of these two very well known Old Testament authors have literally nothing in common with the New Testament vision of the end of time.

The book of Job has the longest discourse on man’s place in the universe of any book in the Bible. Job’s life was destroyed. He lost his oxen and asses to the Sabeans. His sheep and servants were consumed by fire. His camels were carried off by the Chaldeans. His sons and daughters were all killed when a great wind destroyed the house in which they were dining. And finally Satan afflicted Job with suppurating sores that covered his entire body.
Job debates the cause of his plight with several other men and claims that he was wrongly punished. But at no time throughout the discussion is there any mention of rewards or punishments in the afterlife. At the very end (Job 42:1-6) Job confesses to God that he was mistaken about God’s purposes. God accepts his apology and returns to Job everything that he had lost-- in this life, not in any version of an afterlife.

The Christian dogma of Original Sin holds that the terrible crime committed by Adam and Eve-- that of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-- has propagated throughout the entire human genome. As a result every human who has ever lived has been tainted with that indelible stain and is therefore utterly steeped in evil.
But as we’ve seen above, the story of the garden of Eden is less about the knowledge of good and evil than it is about eternal life. From what God actually said in Genesis 3:22, God would have been perfectly content to allow the humans to have knowledge of good and evil so long as they didn’t also have eternal life.

The doctrine of Original Sin is predicated on a complete misreading of the otherwise charming story of the garden of Eden. And it is one that has utterly warped the Christian understanding of human nature.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Why did God evict Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden? Christian dogma holds that God kicked them out because they violated his directive not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But that’s not the whole story. Here’s what the Bible actually says:

God didn’t want them to have both knowledge of good and evil and eternal life, so he threw them out to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life. So the moral of this story is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance that humanity had for eternal life by getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden and thereby no longer being able to eat the fruit of the tree of life.
Interesting thing is, there is no Biblical reason to think God would not have wanted people to know. People could have asked anything directly from God. Also, it is the serpent, who lied, who told that people will know by eating the fruit.
 

DavidSMoore

Member
Interesting thing is, there is no Biblical reason to think God would not have wanted people to know. People could have asked anything directly from God.
Huh? When you say that "God would not have wanted people to know," do you mean know about good and evil? Here's what God said:
And the LORD God commanded the man, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
(Genesis 2:16-17, NRSVue)
So God did not want Adam and Eve to know about good and evil. And what about God's reaction when he found out that Adam and Eve had both eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge as described in Genesis 3:8-19? God sounds mad.
 

DavidSMoore

Member
Interesting article. On the whole I agree that it is rather good. I'll just add a couple of comments:

Kawashima says:
Indeed, other humans already exist in the world outside the Garden of Eden.
Very interesting-- I missed that one! And of course there is also God's remark as he threw the humans out of Eden:
Then the LORD God said, "See, the humans have become like one of us..."
(Genesis 3:22, NRSVue)
Us? Who else is God talking to? Apparently he's talking to other gods. Which other gods, I wonder?


Kawashima says:
What would be hubris, an unacceptable transgression of the human condition, would be for humans to become immortal as well, in effect, gods. Thus, out of concern that the humans might also eat from the tree of life, YHWH expels them from the garden
I see what he's getting at, but as I read the story I think it's clear that Adam and Eve had been eating the fruit of the tree of life all along. Here's what God said when he put Adam in the garden:
And the LORD GOD commanded the man, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
(Genesis 2:16-17, NRSVue)
So there was never any prohibition about eating the fruit of the tree of life. So Adam and Eve must have been eating it. And every time they ate that fruit, their lives were extended. That is, they were already immortal as long as they were living in the garden of Eden.

Kawashima says:
By sending Adam and Eve out of the divine estate, YHWH treats them like the adults they have become, who should no longer be dependents of the divine household. They are legally emancipated.
Well, I think that's a bit of a stretch. God's reaction to his discovery that the humans had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge is one of anger. The story reads more like an eviction than an emancipation-- at least to me.

Kawashima says:
In the garden, the humans ate raw fruit that was simply gathered—in the anthropological sense of the word—from an orchard that they did not plant and that required no watering. A lazy existence.
But the Bible says:
The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it.
(Genesis 2:15, NRSVue)
So it sounds like the humans were expected to do at least some work. In the Atrahasis version of the flood story, which long precedes anything in the Bible, the gods created humans to do all the work. The gods had gotten tired of planting crops, harvesting, herding animals, cooking... Phew! What a lot of work! So they created humans to do all their work for them-- and to serve them daily offerings of the foods they had prepared. I suspect that the assignment of tasks-- tilling and keeping the garden-- are an echo of this much earlier notion that humans were created to serve the gods.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If Adam and Eve did not have any knowledge of good and evil , then anything they could have done wasn't their fault anyways because they didn't know any better.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Huh? When you say that "God would not have wanted people to know," do you mean know about good and evil? Here's what God said:

So God did not want Adam and Eve to know about good and evil.
No, it says basically that God didn't want them to die. God does not say He didn't want them to know. And God also doesn't say that the tree gives any knowledge. It was Satan who said they will know like God, but even he didn't say it is because of the fruit.
 

DavidSMoore

Member
No, it says basically that God didn't want them to die.
And yet he cast them out of the garden of Eden and thereby condemned them to a mortal life.

1213 said:
God does not say He didn't want them to know. And God also doesn't say that the tree gives any knowledge.
Well he said it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Are you claiming that Adam and Eve did not know what the word "knowledge" means? Why would God have used words that Adam and Eve could not understand when giving them their most important commandment?
 

DavidSMoore

Member
It was Satan who said they will know like God, but even he didn't say it is because of the fruit.
Here's what the serpent said:
But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die, for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
(Genesis 3:4-5, NRSVue)

The serpent was wrong about the not dying part, but he was exactly right about the rest. So God punished the serpent for largely telling the truth. That should be all the evidence you need to see that God was trying to conceal the truth from the human residents of the garden.
 

jimb

Active Member
Premium Member
The story in Genesis is easy to understand. Adam and Eve had a choice...

Here is what God said to Adam: "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:15-17

So the choice is: trust God (faith) or trust your own judgement. Living without faith is spiritual death.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Here's what the serpent said:


The serpent was wrong about the not dying part, but he was exactly right about the rest. So God punished the serpent for largely telling the truth. That should be all the evidence you need to see that God was trying to conceal the truth from the human residents of the garden.
It's strange how the Bible vilifies the serpent yet at the same time, the serpent looks like one of the best characters in The Bible!
 

jimb

Active Member
Premium Member
Here's what the serpent said:


The serpent was wrong about the not dying part, but he was exactly right about the rest. So God punished the serpent for largely telling the truth. That should be all the evidence you need to see that God was trying to conceal the truth from the human residents of the garden.
I disagree with your interpretation. God was not trying to conceal the truth from the human residents of the garden. He was trying to teach them to rely on Him, i.e., have faith, and trust their own (fallible) judgement. Relying on their own human judgement was/is spiritual death. It is the exact opposite of trusting God.
 

DavidSMoore

Member
The story in Genesis is easy to understand. Adam and Eve had a choice...

Here is what God said to Adam: "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:15-17

So the choice is: trust God (faith) or trust your own judgement. Living without faith is spiritual death.
Yup, that's the same passage that I cited in postings #4 and #6 of this thread above. I'm certainly not disputing the fact that Adam and Eve made a choice. The point I made in posting #1 of this thread is that the real lesson of the story is that Adam and Eve lost the eternal life they had while living in the garden of Eden and so did all of their descendants. And that explains why the Old Testament authors, with the exception of Daniel, didn't believe in eternal life.
 

jimb

Active Member
Premium Member
Yup, that's the same passage that I cited in postings #4 and #6 of this thread above. I'm certainly not disputing the fact that Adam and Eve made a choice. The point I made in posting #1 of this thread is that the real lesson of the story is that Adam and Eve lost the eternal life they had while living in the garden of Eden and so did all of their descendants. And that explains why the Old Testament authors, with the exception of Daniel, didn't believe in eternal life.
I agree 100%
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Interesting hypothetical speculative discussion on a mythical place that never existed,

By the way there is an interesting argument that the lost paradise has its roots in the paleo history of the Middle East. At one time the Middle East and Northern Africa was a lush paradise of grasslands. lakes and abundant herds of wildlife. After the Ice Age this paradise became arid and desert. The sea levels were rising, and all the tribes were driven into the river valleys to fight a turf war. No more paradise.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
True. But it's still fun.
See post #17. Coming out of the Ice Age the Paleolithic/Neolithic Garden of Eden may have existed. In this scenario this migration and conflict over the river valleys was the driving force of agriculture civilization, technology and organized warfare.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The story in Genesis is easy to understand. Adam and Eve had a choice...

Here is what God said to Adam: "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:15-17

So the choice is: trust God (faith) or trust your own judgement. Living without faith is spiritual death.
Your analysis here assumes A&E had knowledge of good and evil (understanding consequences of actions) and were capable of obedience (which requires understanding consequences and responsibility). A&E were naive, and may have never eaten from the forbidden tree if not tempted by the serpent. But where did the serpent come from? Who created it? And who allowed it in the Garden to tempt A&E?

If God is perfect how did his creation fail to obey? Why would God create and send the serpent if not to ensure A&E were tempted (as naive humans)?
 
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