A Universe from Nothing?

ArtieE · Oct 24, 2016

godnotgod said:
BTW, to answer your question as to whether you have two selves: You have just one, The Self, which is real, playing the fictional self, like an actor playing a character in a drama. Sometimes the actor gets taken in completely and believes himself to be the character, completely forgetting his true Self.

What is the reason why this Self would play characters?

YmirGF · Oct 24, 2016

ben d said:
Ok....thanks for that....I found a more comprehensive description of your experience here..
#15

"Summia when I was 21 years old I have several stunning visions, the others are not your concern but one was an 8 hour "meeting" with the Hindu God known as Lord Vishnu. Quite honestly you could have knocked me over with a feather, hehe. It was really more incredible than ANYTHING you can personally imagine and the reason I say that is frankly there is no possibility that I was imagining it nor could I possibly have imagined such an astounding thing. The amusing thing is that he never did say a word. Not a single word... but my mind was constantly flooded by an unfathomable feeling of love and warmth. It did not occur to me to say a single word to him. It is far too incredible as one is quite speechless. The neato thing is that you don't need words to communicate... much like two lovers only need to glance at each other to pass volumes of information between them."

Hmmm.....but if you are an atheist...do you now believe it was not Vishnu?

Wow, you went all the way back to 2007 for that.

Thanks for the effort!. What you have to try to understand is that understanding is an evolving thing. It is never finished and there is always something else around the corner. In answer to your question, at the time, and for some time after, I thought it was Vishnu. In some respects - it was/is THE Vishnu. But... it wasn't a static vision, but rather, it was a multilayered experience it took decades to decode. It was to become my foundation of ideas I came up with many years later, of a personality quite far beyond the limits we normally place on our notions of personality.

Now I have quite a different understanding - hence my pointing to what I saw reflected in those eyes... How I understand it now is that the Vishnu aspect was simply my larger identity, in a sense, masquerading as Vishnu to help me understand the gravity of what I had discovered. It certainly got my attention. The point is the larger identity is not god even though it eclipses much of what we think of as being god. It's easier to grasp if one just tosses out all ideas of god and approaches the subject directly.

This tidbit from dognotgod is actually fairly useful in what I am trying to say. Since I'm so prone to dumping on you both, I really should pat him on the head for this @godnotgod

godnotgod said:
BTW, to answer your question as to whether you have two selves: You have just one, The Self, which is real, playing the fictional self, like an actor playing a character in a drama. Sometimes the actor gets taken in completely and believes himself to be the character, completely forgetting his true Self.

.

ArtieE · Oct 24, 2016

godnotgod said:
"First, there is a mountain;
then, there is no mountain;
then, there is"

"First, there is a mountain;
then, there is no mountain;
then, there is"
then, there is no is.

Right?

Ben Dhyan · Oct 24, 2016

YmirGF said:
Wow, you went all the way back to 2007 for that. Thanks for the effort!. What you have to try to understand is that understanding is an evolving thing. It is never finished and there is always something else around the corner. In answer to your question, at the time, and for some time after, I thought it was Vishnu. In some respects - it was/is THE Vishnu. But... it wasn't a static vision, but rather, it was a multilayered experience it took decades to decode. It was to become my foundation of ideas I came up with many years later, of a personality quite far beyond the limits we normally place on our notions of personality.

Now I have quite a different understanding - hence my pointing to what I saw reflected in those eyes... How I understand it now is that the Vishnu aspect was simply my larger identity, in a sense, masquerading as Vishnu to help me understand the gravity of what I had discovered. It certainly got my attention. The point is the larger identity is not god even though it eclipses much of what we think of as being god. It's easier to grasp if one just tosses out all ideas of god and approaches the subject directly.

This tidbit from dognotgod is actually fairly useful in what I am trying to say. Since I'm so prone to dumping on you both, I really should pat him on the head for this @godnotgod
.

Understood....approaching the subject directly is what it is all about...finding out what and who one really is in the context of the bigger picture.... More later...

`mud · Oct 24, 2016

Everything are shadows,
upon the empty wall.
What about 'there was',
that fraction of a squirt of time passing,
sometimes called the 'now'.
~
'mud

Thief · Oct 24, 2016

godnotgod said:
'We shall prepare a face to meet the faces that we meet'
TS Elliot

THAT is the persona, the corollary to the shadow.

What's 'real' about it?

if you must ask.......'you' are

godnotgod · Oct 24, 2016

james bond said:
Ha ha. Last point first. Nothing really to ponder. Some things are simple. Taking refuge is not the problem and why I do or the people that do are not the problem. I can see you do not see the problem.

The ones taking refuge are the ones who have faith in Buddha and his teachings. It is the fundamental of any religion including atheism.

"Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. You gotta have something if you wanna be with me." - Billy Preston.

You see, the action taken is 'refuge'. If that is the case, my friend, there is a problem.

Who is it that takes refuge?

In the end, the seeker is extinguished in Nirvana.

godnotgod · Oct 24, 2016

Thief said:
if you must ask.......'you' are

The Persona and the Shadow are illusory concoctions of the Ego. What is real about the Persona?

godnotgod · Oct 24, 2016

'mud said:
Everything are shadows,
upon the empty wall.
What about 'there was',
that fraction of a squirt of time passing,
sometimes called the 'now'.
~
'mud

There are two 'nows': the fleeting passing of the tick of the clock, called linear time, and this eternal, timeless Present Moment that has no past or future; no history; no memory. Arrive here and you will be free.

"The day you directly experience everything without any past knowledge, you will be free"
http://www.ankushchauhan.com/zen-and-the-heart-of-spiritual-awakening/

godnotgod · Oct 24, 2016

ArtieE said:
What is the reason why this Self would play characters?

Why do YOU?

Tell me: how is it that a baby knows the game of Peek-A-Boo, a form of Hide and Seek, without ever having been taught?

godnotgod · Oct 24, 2016

YmirGF said:
Wow, you went all the way back to 2007 for that. Thanks for the effort!. What you have to try to understand is that understanding is an evolving thing. It is never finished and there is always something else around the corner. In answer to your question, at the time, and for some time after, I thought it was Vishnu. In some respects - it was/is THE Vishnu. But... it wasn't a static vision, but rather, it was a multilayered experience it took decades to decode. It was to become my foundation of ideas I came up with many years later, of a personality quite far beyond the limits we normally place on our notions of personality.

Now I have quite a different understanding - hence my pointing to what I saw reflected in those eyes... How I understand it now is that the Vishnu aspect was simply my larger identity, in a sense, masquerading as Vishnu to help me understand the gravity of what I had discovered. It certainly got my attention. The point is the larger identity is not god even though it eclipses much of what we think of as being god. It's easier to grasp if one just tosses out all ideas of god and approaches the subject directly.

This tidbit from dognotgod is actually fairly useful in what I am trying to say. Since I'm so prone to dumping on you both, I really should pat him on the head for this @godnotgod

.

hmmmm.....I thought you previously said that this whole experience with 'Vishnu' was hilarious.

ArtieE · Oct 24, 2016

godnotgod said:
Why do YOU?

Tell me: how is it that a baby knows the game of Peek-A-Boo, a form of Hide and Seek, without ever having been taught?

How can a baby breathe without ever having been taught? The behavior and responses to certain stimuly is hard-wired into the brain.

godnotgod · Oct 24, 2016

ArtieE said:
"First, there is a mountain;
then, there is no mountain;
then, there is"
then, there is no is.

Right?

If you mean that the background to existence is Nothing, then yes. But that is not the meaning of the piece. Here is the expanded, original view:

"When I began my study of Zen, mountains were just mountains, and trees were just trees.
During my study, mountains were no longer mountains, and trees no longer trees.
When I became enlightened*, mountains were once again mountains, and trees once again trees."
Zen Source

*and no, Muldoon: this is not my material in which I am claiming to be enlightened. So cool those jerking knees already.

YmirGF · Oct 24, 2016

godnotgod said:
hmmmm.....I thought you previously said that this whole experience with 'Vishnu' was hilarious.

No, I was meaning that both your and Ben D's reactions were hilarious. The experience was one of unparalleled ecstatic bliss however - not quite the same thing.

godnotgod · Oct 24, 2016

ArtieE said:
How can a baby breathe without ever having been taught? The behavior and responses to certain stimuly is hard-wired into the brain.

Yes, by consciousness.

But breathing is a biological activity. Peek a Boo is a game. Where does the baby derive this game from?

ArtieE · Oct 24, 2016

godnotgod said:
Yes, by consciousness.

But breathing is a biological activity. Peek a Boo is a game. Where does the baby derive this game from?

I don't know what you mean. Does it have something to do with this?
"For newborns, play peekaboo by covering your face with your hands — newborns are fascinated by faces, and your sweet newborn would rather look at your face than almost anything else in the world. As baby grows and starts to "get" the game..."
http://www.whattoexpect.com/first-year/peek-a-boo/

ArtieE · Oct 24, 2016

godnotgod said:
If you mean that the background to existence is Nothing, then yes.

Yes that's what I meant. What I find interesting is why there is something instead of nothing and why your quote just stopped there with "then, there is". Where to go next? "Then, there isn't"? and is that something that can be achieved?

`mud · Oct 24, 2016

There is never an 'is',
nor ever a 'now',
enjoy !
~
'mud

Ben Dhyan · Oct 24, 2016

YmirGF said:
No, I was meaning that both your and Ben D's reactions were hilarious. The experience was one of unparalleled ecstatic bliss however - not quite the same thing.

Hardly hilarious...just somewhat confused as to how a self professed atheist claimed he saw Vishnu....see the cognitive dissonance that would be reflected in such a situation. Only just now have you finally got around to explain that you no longer claim it was really Vishnu you saw....why the coyness to be upfront about this before is beyond me?

YmirGF · Oct 24, 2016

ben d said:
Hardly hilarious...just somewhat confused as to how a self professed atheist claimed he saw Vishnu....see the cognitive dissonance that would be reflected in such a situation. Only just now have you finally got around to explain that you no longer claim it was really Vishnu you saw....why the coyness to be upfront about this before is beyond me?

You lack of imagination is truly stunning. So much for your intuitive grasp of - anything...

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