According to the Bible: All prophets before Muhammad were Muslims !!

Britedream said:

You know very well that wiki sources aren't reliable, please give a link to "The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia" translation, that support your claim.

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You'll have to go back and re-read what I wrote. I said the Encyclopedia was mistaken. Then I linked the full text of chapter 30 in the Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer which supports my claim. That's not a wiki article. That's the full text of chapter 30 in Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer, which speaks about Ishmael. It just doesn't mention the particular point quoted below. I also looked in my own Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer which happens to also supports this.

The unedited full-text of they 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia is mistaken when they say,
They should have left the words in bold out as its not in that text. It is in the other one "Sefer HaYashar". Which again, I quoted to you earlier and linked to the text of the book online. Its not a bad mistake as they had quoted the Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer a number of times throughout the article. They mistakenly added it in an extra time, or cited the wrong chapter.

In fact, while we're on the topic, the next statement has a mistake as well:
This citation is actually found in 16b not 16a:
You can use ctrl+f and paste the above sentence into the search bar. Then scroll up one page to verify that it says "Talmud - Mas. Baba Bathra 16b". If you like you can keep scrolling up to check the entire 16a as well. This is of course verified by the original Aramaic, found here.

Tumah said:

You'll have to go back and re-read what I wrote. I said the Encyclopedia was mistaken. Then I linked the full text of chapter 30 in the Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer which supports my claim. That's not a wiki article. That's the full text of chapter 30 in Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer, which speaks about Ishmael. It just doesn't mention the particular point quoted below. I also looked in my own Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer which happens to also supports this.

The unedited full-text of they 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia is mistaken when they say,

"Ishmael then went to Canaan and settled with his father (Pirḳe R. El. l.c.; "Sefer ha-Yashar," l.c.)."​

They should have left the words in bold out as its not in that text. It is in the other one "Sefer HaYashar". Which again, I quoted to you earlier and linked to the text of the book online. Its not a bad mistake as they had quoted the Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer a number of times throughout the article. They mistakenly added it in an extra time, or cited the wrong chapter.

In fact, while we're on the topic, the next statement has a mistake as well:

This statement agrees with that of Baba Batra (16a)—that Ishmael became a penitent during the lifetime of Abraham.​

This citation is actually found in 16b not 16a:

Another explanation is that Ishmael repented while he was still alive.​

You can use ctrl+f and paste the above sentence into the search bar. Then scroll up one page to verify that it says "Talmud - Mas. Baba Bathra 16b". If you like you can keep scrolling up to check the entire 16a as well. This is of course verified by the original Aramaic, found here.

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The fact it says unedited, means, there are other sources that are edited. So my request is legitimate, and it stands.

I am not familiar with Aramaic, and it is wiki, so that is not usefull. but I will check other things, may be in the weekend, And I will update you on my finding.

Britedream said:

The fact it says unedited, means, there are other sources that are edited. So my request is legitimate, and it stands.

I am not familiar with Aramaic, so that is not usefull. but I will check other things, may be in the weekend, And I will update you on my finding.

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It probably means that they didn't change anything from the text of the original book, when they put it up on the site.

so who can say that the Palmistry is accurate as a to be consider as a fact
when there is a writting that says somethin like this
as it is written
:read:
Proverbs 27:1
Do not boast about tomorrow; for you do not know what a day may bring forth.


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

Tumah said:

It probably means that they didn't change anything from the text of the original book, when they put it up on the site.

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I searched the net to find a correction, or an objection to the Jewish Encyclopedia in question, it is an old writing, I assumed if there is anything wrong with it, it would be noted, but there is nothing from that is found, So I looked at it from a different angle, I looked at events that are linking Ismael to the place of his brother Isaac.


Starting with "Genesis 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre", we see them together here - according to your belief Abraham had 8 sons - we only see here just the two, so it is valid to assume that Ishamel wasn't with the other six brothers at this time; he must be close by to attend his father burial.

Now, years later, we see, "Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob and sent him away to Padan Aram to take himself a wife from there, and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, "You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan," and that Jacob had obeyed his father and his mother and had gone to Padan Aram. Also Esau saw that the daughters of Canaan did not please his father Isaac. So Esau went to Ishmael and took Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife in addition to the wives he had" (Genesis 28:9). In this, Esau went to Ismael; you will notice in this, that Ishmael is mentioned here, without a place qualifier, which puts him to live near by.

As to that, we see the church in its explanation of this verse, comparing the two; where Jacob went far, and married a cousin, while Esau didn't go far, and married a cousin. Please read the last paragraph in this link: http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2011/10-02.html

So the Church, the Bible commentary, the book of genesis, and the Jewish Encyclopedia, all resonate to that Ishmael was living near Isaac.

My conclusion is that, even if you believe, that what is in the Jewish Encyclopedia, is an error, all other sources attest, that Ishmael is dwelling near Isaac.

~;> that is a good analysis
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

Britedream said:

I searched the net to find a correction, or an objection to the Jewish Encyclopedia in question, it is an old writing, I assumed if there is anything wrong with it, it would be noted, but there is nothing from that is found, So I looked at it from a different angle, I looked at events that are linking Ismael to the place of his brother Isaac.


Starting with "Genesis 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre", we see them together here - according to your belief Abraham had 8 sons - we only see here just the two, so it is valid to assume that Ishamel wasn't with the other six brothers at this time; he must be close by to attend his father burial.

Now, years later, we see, "Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob and sent him away to Padan Aram to take himself a wife from there, and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, "You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan," and that Jacob had obeyed his father and his mother and had gone to Padan Aram. Also Esau saw that the daughters of Canaan did not please his father Isaac. So Esau went to Ishmael and took Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife in addition to the wives he had" (Genesis 28:9). In this, Esau went to Ismael; you will notice in this, that Ishmael is mentioned here, without a place qualifier, which puts him to live near by.

As to that, we see the church in its explanation of this verse, comparing the two; where Jacob went far, and married a cousin, while Esau didn't go far, and married a cousin. Please read the last paragraph in this link: http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2011/10-02.html

So the Church, the Bible commentary, the book of genesis, and the Jewish Encyclopedia, all resonate to that Ishmael was living near Isaac.

My conclusion is that, even if you believe, that what is in the Jewish Encyclopedia, is an error, all other sources attest, that Ishmael is dwelling near Isaac.

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You can't say that about the Jewish Encyclopedia, since the source that it brings relates that Ishmael only lived with Abraham for a number of years, with no mention whether Isaac was living with Abraham at the time as well. So at most, you have that Ishmael did spend some years by Abraham, not Isaac. As well, the source mentioned by the JE has Ishmael eventually leaving Abraham after his death.

But either way, I don't understand why you refuse to accept what the verse itself says. Gen. 25:17-18 clearly puts Ishmael and his family in a huge area of land stretching from Egypt up to Assyria. Isaac lived in Be'er Sheba. Its not far from where the lands that Ishmael and his family covered, that is true. Definitely a lot closer than Padan Aram where Jacob traveled to. But they didn't live together. Isaac lived in Cana'an and Ishmael lived in the neighboring land.

Tumah said:

You can't say that about the Jewish Encyclopedia, since the source that it brings relates that Ishmael only lived with Abraham for a number of years, with no mention whether Isaac was living with Abraham at the time as well. So at most, you have that Ishmael did spend some years by Abraham, not Isaac. As well, the source mentioned by the JE has Ishmael eventually leaving Abraham after his death.

But either way, I don't understand why you refuse to accept what the verse itself says. Gen. 25:17-18 clearly puts Ishmael and his family in a huge area of land stretching from Egypt up to Assyria. Isaac lived in Be'er Sheba. Its not far from where the lands that Ishmael and his family covered, that is true. Definitely a lot closer than Padan Aram where Jacob traveled to. But they didn't live together. Isaac lived in Cana'an and Ishmael lived in the neighboring land.

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You are confirming my earlier post, and contradicting yourself.

This is What you posted:

But either way, I don't understand why you refuse to accept what the verse itself says. Gen. 25:17-18 clearly puts Ishmael and his family in a huge area of land stretching from Egypt up to Assyria. Isaac lived in Be'er Sheba. Its not far from where the lands that Ishmael and his family covered, that is true. Definitely a lot closer than Padan Aram where Jacob traveled to. But they didn't live together. Isaac lived in Cana'an and Ishmael lived in the neighboring land.

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You see, Padan-Aram is in Haran in Assyria, but Abraham, and Isaac were living in Cana'an. You Acknowledged that Ishmael lived in the area between Egypt and Assyria, the area of Cana'an is inside this area at the west side of it. so it is not possible for you to rule out that Ishmael was living near Isaac.

~;> indeed
that is precisely what faith stands for
as for someone who has that kind of faith such as yours is outstanding
compared unto
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man

b'coz in
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man
there is one that was known
as the perfect example of heretics. They were and are heretics, concentrating on themselves instead of Christ or any gods
and even people that were written along side with it and the Gospel or any holy written scriptures

Heresy, intentionally twisting and making of no account Christ or any gods and even people that were written along side with it and the Gospel or any holy written scriptures will not go unrewarded.

as they say
so as it is written
:read:
Ephesians 6:6
not in the way of service only when eyes are on you, as men pleasers; but as servants of Messiah, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men;
8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is bound or free.

. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

Britedream said:

You are confirming my earlier post, and contradicting yourself.

This is What you posted:



You see, Padan-Aram is in Haran in Assyria, but Abraham, and Isaac were living in Cana'an. You Acknowledged that Ishmael lived in the area between Egypt and Assyria, the area of Cana'an is inside this area at the west side of it. so it is not possible for you to rule out that Ishmael was living near Isaac.

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Britedream said:

You are confirming my earlier post, and contradicting yourself.

This is What you posted:



You see, Padan-Aram in Haran in Assyria, but Abraham, Isaac were living in Cana'an. You Acknowledged that Ishmael lived in the area between Egypt and Assyria, the area of Cana'an is in the middle of this area at the east side of it. so it is not possible for you to rule out that Ishmael was living near Isaac.

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I didn't actually realize that Harran was part of Assyria. But you are right, I am mistaken. In Hebrew, Assyria (אשור) and Shur (שור) are one letter different and I confused them. Here is my correction.

Gen 25:18
And they dwelt from Havilah until Shur, that was on the face of Egypt coming to Assyria. On the face of all his brothers, he died.

1 Sam. 15:7
And Saul hit the Amalekites from Havilah until you come to Shur, that is one the face of Egypt.

The Assyria part of our verse is to tell you from which side of Egypt we are discussing. If you are in Egypt, Assyria is north-east. If you picture Egypt as a head looking eastward, Shur, being on the face of Egypt probably means somewhere along or near the border of Egypt.

Gen. 32:4
And Jacob send messengers before to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, in the fields of Edom.
Gen. 33:16
And on that day Esau returned to his way, towards Seir.

Here is a map I found on Wikipedia. Its from a later time period then what we're talking about, but the relevant places can give you an idea of what we're talking about.



Ammon and Moab are the children of Lot's (Abraham's nephew) daughters. The Kingdom of Edom refers to where Esau's family lived. The Arabu Tribes are the Tribes of Arabia.

According to what I could find online, Shur is located somewhere in the Sinai peninsula. Havilah is located somewhere along the western area of Saudi Arabia. So basically what we'd be talking about, is from the west side of the area marked "Kingdom of Edom" all the way to the south-east of it. Abraham sent Keturah's sons to the east. This refers to the Arabian peninsula which is south east of Cana'an (for instance, Midian is there). I picture Ishmael as a line stretching from the Sinai peninsula into the Arabian peninsula. Esau grabs a daughter from Ishmael and carves out a niche in the neighborhood. Later Saul chases the Amalekites (who are from Edom) along the same path that Ishmael and his family spread out over.

The point being, Ishmael lived among the sons of Keturah in the Arabian peninsula. Midianites, (of one of the sons of Keturah) are even called "Ishmaelites" in Gen. 37. The same terminology of "on the face" is used to explain where Shur is and where Ishmael lived. Probably indicating that Ishmael and his 12 princes lived along the border between the sons of Keturah and the neighboring lands. Cana'an is one of those neighboring lands, that's true. But it was filled by the Cana'anite nations. Isaac was just one family that lived within the borders. It wouldn't be his land for hundreds of years more. So the border Ishmael lived on, would be the border between Cana'an, the Arabian peninusla where the children of Keturah lived, and Edom. His neighbors were Cana'anites, Edomites and the sons of Keturah. Only one of these three could be called his brothers.

I am so glad this thread was introduced. Learned somethings. Especially from Tumah.

~;> indeed
and he also learn to accept his error

as they say
And he said: 'Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us? thinkest thou to kill me, as thou didst kill the Egyptian?' And Moses feared, and said: 'Surely the thing is known.'
Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian; and he sat down by a well.
Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock.
And the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock.
And when they came to Reuel their father, he said: 'How is it that ye are come so soon to-day?'
And they said: 'An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and moreover he drew water for us, and watered the flock.'
And he said unto his daughters: 'And where is he? Why is it that ye have left the man? call him, that he may eat bread.'
And Moses was content to dwell with the man; and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.
And she bore a son, and he called his name Gershom; for he said: 'I have been a stranger in a strange land.'

. ... just fof a thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

Tumah said:

I didn't actually realize that Harran was part of Assyria. But you are right, I am mistaken. In Hebrew, Assyria (אשור) and Shur (שור) are one letter different and I confused them. Here is my correction.

Gen 25:18
And they dwelt from Havilah until Shur, that was on the face of Egypt coming to Assyria. On the face of all his brothers, he died.

1 Sam. 15:7
And Saul hit the Amalekites from Havilah until you come to Shur, that is one the face of Egypt.

The Assyria part of our verse is to tell you from which side of Egypt we are discussing. If you are in Egypt, Assyria is north-east. If you picture Egypt as a head looking eastward, Shur, being on the face of Egypt probably means somewhere along or near the border of Egypt.

Gen. 32:4
And Jacob send messengers before to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, in the fields of Edom.
Gen. 33:16
And on that day Esau returned to his way, towards Seir.

Here is a map I found on Wikipedia. Its from a later time period then what we're talking about, but the relevant places can give you an idea of what we're talking about.

Ammon and Moab are the children of Lot's (Abraham's nephew) daughters. The Kingdom of Edom refers to where Esau's family lived. The Arabu Tribes are the Tribes of Arabia.

According to what I could find online, Shur is located somewhere in the Sinai peninsula. Havilah is located somewhere along the western area of Saudi Arabia. So basically what we'd be talking about, is from the west side of the area marked "Kingdom of Edom" all the way to the south-east of it. Abraham sent Keturah's sons to the east. This refers to the Arabian peninsula which is south east of Cana'an (for instance, Midian is there). I picture Ishmael as a line stretching from the Sinai peninsula into the Arabian peninsula. Esau grabs a daughter from Ishmael and carves out a niche in the neighborhood. Later Saul chases the Amalekites (who are from Edom) along the same path that Ishmael and his family spread out over.

The point being, Ishmael lived among the sons of Keturah in the Arabian peninsula. Midianites, (of one of the sons of Keturah) are even called "Ishmaelites" in Gen. 37. The same terminology of "on the face" is used to explain where Shur is and where Ishmael lived. Probably indicating that Ishmael and his 12 princes lived along the border between the sons of Keturah and the neighboring lands. Cana'an is one of those neighboring lands, that's true. But it was filled by the Cana'anite nations. Isaac was just one family that lived within the borders. It wouldn't be his land for hundreds of years more. So the border Ishmael lived on, would be the border between Cana'an, the Arabian peninusla where the children of Keturah lived, and Edom. His neighbors were Cana'anites, Edomites and the sons of Keturah. Only one of these three could be called his brothers.

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I just do't see why you appeal to a wiki and a later political map to prove a point.

However, there is no sequential record that you can trust, scattered info; sometime is conflicting, but we should pick up the points that do make sense with each other. let us look at Abraham's behavior.

Jash 21:24 And Abraham went to the wilderness, and he reached the tent of Ishmael about noon, and he asked after Ishmael, and he found the wife of Ishmael sitting in the tent with her children, and Ishmael her husband and his mother were not with them.

Jash 21:25 And Abraham asked the wife of Ishmael, saying, Where has Ishmael gone? and she said, He has gone to the field to hunt, and Abraham was still mounted upon the camel, for he would not get off to the ground as he had sworn to his wife Sarah that he would not get off from the camel.

Jash 21:26 And Abraham said to Ishmael's wife, My daughter, give me a little water that I may drink, for I am fatigued from the journey.

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We see Abraham reached Ishmael about noon, he took no water with him, or food, he didn't get off his camel. so Ishmael is dwelling near Abraham at this time.





Let us see What Abraham did next:

Jash 21:37 And Ishmael afterward went to the land of Canaan, and he took another wife and he brought her to his tent to the place where he then dwelt.

Jash 21:38 And at the end of three years Abraham said, I will go again and see Ishmael my son, for I have not seen him for a long time.

Jash 21:39 And he rode upon his camel and went to the wilderness, and he reached the tent of Ishmael about noon.

Jash 21:40 And he asked after Ishmael, and his wife came out of the tent and she said, He is not here my lord, for he has gone to hunt in the fields, and to feed the camels, and the woman said to Abraham, Turn in my lord into the tent, and eat a morsel of bread, for thy soul must be wearied on account of the journey.

Jash 21:41 And Abraham said to her, I will not stop for I am in haste to continue my journey, but give me a little water to drink, for I have thirst; and the woman hastened and ran into the tent and she brought out water and bread to Abraham, which she placed before him and she urged him to eat, and he ate and drank and his heart was comforted and he blessed his son Ishmael.

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Again we see Abraham is behaving as loving father, reaching Ismael place at noon time, puts Ishmael in the same distance as before. We see Ishmael is an obedient son, divorcing his wife for the wish of his father.

We see Ishmael went and married from Canaan. as we saw earlier, Esau came and married the daughter of Ishmael.

With this distance, it makes sense that, Ishmael hears the death of his father, and able to attend his burial. Also it makes sense for Esau, not to travel far to marry his cousin. this makes Genesis, on this points make sense.

But if we take up all these points that show Abraham has sons that he didn't care about, never looked for, or asked about, also those points, that Abraham cuts off Ishmael to give the wealth to Isaac, Isaac cuts off Esau to give wealth to Jacob, and Esau with Ishmael were making a plot to kill Isaac and Jacob for the wealth, this shows that Abraham and his family are of satanic nature, not of blessed one. So anything that we see made up as result of political reason, which contradicts the character of Abraham, or his family; that is including the isolation of Ishmael, should be rejected. After all, they all lived in tents, without much of wealth anyway.

My point is that, Ishmael never been isolated from his father and his siblings, I think some of the records are made for political reasons.

Britedream said:

I just do't see why you appeal to a wiki and a later political map to prove a point.

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Well the map was just to give an image. The areas that Ishmael and Esau lived in can be found in the various sources throughout Tanach. Wiki only narrows it down a bit if there happens to be some archaeological evidence. But the actual areas are pulled straight out of the verses.

However, there is no sequential record that you can trust, scattered info; sometime is conflicting, but we should pick up the points that do make sense with each other. let us look at Abraham's behavior.



We see Abraham reached Ishmael about noon, he took no water with him, or food, he didn't get off his camel. so Ishmael is dwelling near Abraham at this time.





Let us see What Abraham did next:



Again we see Abraham is behaving as loving father, reaching Ismael place at noon time, puts Ishmael in the same distance as before. We see Ishmael is an obedient son, divorcing his wife for the wish of his father.

We see Ishmael went and married from Canaan. as we saw earlier, Esau came and married the daughter of Ishmael.

With this distance, it makes sense that, Ishmael hears the death of his father, and able to attend his burial. Also it makes sense for Esau, not to travel far to marry his cousin. this makes Genesis, on this points make sense.

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I understand that you found this text on a site called sacred-texts. But this book "Sefer HaYashar" that you're quoting is not considered an important text and we Jews wouldn't derive such specific information from it, because of copy errors that may have crept into the text. Its good for general ideas, but the more vital Midrashim are Rabbah, Tanchuma, Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer and the like. Its not an obscure text exactly, but its not a foundational text. So unless an idea is mirrored in one of the major Midrashim, we wouldn't put too much stock into it.
As well, because we have to acknowledge that the Midrash might be accurate, we need to explain how Abraham could have traveled so far. With respect to that, we have a concept called "clenching the road" which is a miraculous ability that the righteous could employ to travel far distances in short periods of time. Its first noted use is by Abraham's servant Eliezer. If the servant could employ this technique, the master should be able to as well.

But again, that's assuming that this particular point of the Midrash is accurate and I as a Talmudic scholar, wouldn't put too much stock into it.

That being said, there is no question that Abraham loved Ishmael and that Ishmael returned the honor with obedience. This is found in all Midrashim. Esau as well was known to be especially honoring towards his father.

But if we take up all these points that show Abraham has sons that he didn't care about, never looked for, or asked about, also those points, that Abraham cuts off Ishmael to give the wealth to Isaac, Isaac cuts off Esau to give wealth to Jacob, and Esau with Ishmael were making a plot to kill Isaac and Jacob for the wealth, this shows that Abraham and his family are of satanic nature, not of blessed one. So anything that we see made up as result of political reason, which contradicts the character of Abraham, or his family; that is including the isolate of Ishmael, should be rejected. After all, they all lived in tents, without much of wealth anyway.

My point is that, Ishmael never been isolated from his father and his siblings, I think some of the records are made for political reasons.

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This is foolish from my perspective. A Midrash can't contradict a verse in Tanach. The Tanach is the word of G-d. The Midrash is records passed down by man that hopefully don't have too many errors. We would never take a Midrash over an explicit verse.

In any case, Gen. 25:6 specifically says that Abraham sent Keturah's brothers away from Isaac. If Ishmael was around too, then the verse is missing information. Since we are talking within the context of Tanach, without another Tanach verse to provide the missing information, there's no proof he was there.

Tumah said:

Well the map was just to give an image. The areas that Ishmael and Esau lived in can be found in the various sources throughout Tanach. Wiki only narrows it down a bit if there happens to be some archaeological evidence. But the actual areas are pulled straight out of the verses.



I understand that you found this text on a site called sacred-texts. But this book "Sefer HaYashar" that you're quoting is not considered an important text and we Jews wouldn't derive such specific information from it, because of copy errors that may have crept into the text. Its good for general ideas, but the more vital Midrashim are Rabbah, Tanchuma, Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer and the like. Its not an obscure text exactly, but its not a foundational text. So unless an idea is mirrored in one of the major Midrashim, we wouldn't put too much stock into it.
As well, because we have to acknowledge that the Midrash might be accurate, we need to explain how Abraham could have traveled so far. With respect to that, we have a concept called "clenching the road" which is a miraculous ability that the righteous could employ to travel far distances in short periods of time. Its first noted use is by Abraham's servant Eliezer. If the servant could employ this technique, the master should be able to as well.

But again, that's assuming that this particular point of the Midrash is accurate and I as a Talmudic scholar, wouldn't put too much stock into it.

That being said, there is no question that Abraham loved Ishmael and that Ishmael returned the honor with obedience. This is found in all Midrashim. Esau as well was known to be especially honoring towards his father.


This is foolish from my perspective. A Midrash can't contradict a verse in Tanach. The Tanach is the word of G-d. The Midrash is records passed down by man that hopefully don't have too many errors. We would never take a Midrash over an explicit verse.

In any case, Gen. 25:6 specifically says that Abraham sent Keturah's brothers away from Isaac. If Ishmael was around too, then the verse is missing information. Since we are talking within the context of Tanach, without another Tanach verse to provide the missing information, there's no proof he was there.

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I am not discussing beliefs here, my belief is different from yours, you can believe anything you want, but that doesn't make it fact. you can't prove that Tanach is from God, or any of your books without faith. I am only taking events that make sense with other event.

Britedream said:

I am only taking events that make sense with other event.

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That is called "ratification."

Thank you for flat out admitting it.

Mestemia said:

That is called "ratification."

Thank you for flat out admitting it.

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If I believe everything said in the Hebrew bible to be true, I would have to be a Jew.

Britedream said:

If I believe everything said in the Hebrew bible to be true, I would have to be a Jew.

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If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

That you look to another religions texts for no other reason than to confirm your own only reveals your insecurities of your own.

Mestemia said:

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

That you look to another religions texts for no other reason than to confirm your own only reveals your insecurities of your own.

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Please keep the non sense of yours to yourself, no muslim on this plant will prove his religion from the Hebrew Bible, and it is foolish to think so.

Britedream said:

I am not discussing beliefs here, my belief is different from yours, you can believe anything you want, but that doesn't make it fact. you can't prove that Tanach is from God, or any of your books without faith. I am only taking events that make sense with other event.

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Britedream said:

Please keep the non sense of yours to yourself, no muslim on this plant will prove his religion from the Hebrew Bible, and it is foolish to think so.

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I am totally confused here. I thought you were trying to prove that a passage in Tanach was a prophecy about Muhammad.
Then you started bringing Jewish Midrash to prove your point about a passage in Tanach.
Now you are saying that you aren't trying to prove your religion from the Tanach.

What are have we been doing this whole time? Because I'm starting to get the feeling that I totally didn't catch on.