What is the universe? Which one seems more likely to you?

Lighthouse said:

"Science" relies on faith that the human eyes are capable of seeing everything in existence so Id have to agree with you. It is termed not natural if it cannot be seen.

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Your wrong.. we actually know that the only thing we can see with our eyes is a mere fraction of what is out there.. luckily for us, we can invent tools that help us see more..
So your statement here is very off...

But i assume you wanted to say that science relies on faith.. which once again.. is wrong.
Science relies on assumption..
We assume something works in a way based on what we know.. once what we know changes.. the assumption change.

YmirGF said:

I'm not so sure we will ever really know if the universe is any of the 4 choices. It's and awfully large place and our incredibly small brains can only intuit so much data. My guess is that the answer to this question is a tad beyond our pay grade to answer. If only our intellectual honesty could help us understand that not knowing is completely OK.

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I Can live with that

Segev Moran said:

Nope,
That's not what i meant...
I Meant that you can see something as unnatural... (or partially un-natural) until you understand it's nature..
then it becomes natural

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That is nice but presumes all things can be understood by us and observed or detected and I think it is not testable, so it results in presuming that the known and unknown are within a knowable universe.

Segev Moran said:

So for example.. in the far far past, a comet was considered unnatural... a symbol or a sign from the Gods..
Once science could describe it is a comet, and could explain what it really is... although the phenomenon still exists.. it is now considered natural.

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True, but there is more to people than what is written about us in books. People have long used symbols to represent the unknown, and gods are words we attach to things we cannot discuss directly. Suppose that we are ancient Greeks. What causes people to fight? We almost know but not quite, so we call it 'Athena'.

Is this pure superstition? No. It is a system we have set up to think about things and allow them to be almost anything. So Athena is not merely the superstitious cause of war. She and her story are everything we know about War in symbolic form -- so that we can try to understand it. It is our algebra of the unknown. We honor the unknown in every way possible, because we don't know what it is. Its so that we can master the unknown and not merely to have an object of worship. Athena is called a goddess, but we know her function is to give us mastery of war. There is no delusion in ourselves about what her function is. This is human nature. Its what we do with every unknown.

You are doing the same thing -- hoping to master the unknown by calling it 'Universe'. Its like an algebra, so that you can examine something from many sides in order to better describe it. It is also no less superstitious, because you are assuming that everything can be understood when you have no way of being certain of it.

1 & 2
God created and God IS an alien by definition.
God isn't from earth and resides someplace else.
God IS an ancient alien.
God is timeless and not of this Earth.
Does this fit the definition of an alien?

oldbadger said:

Why not have some of 4, with a touch of 2?
Erik von Daniken rides again!
So, although von Daniken has, err, lost ground... in recent decades, who is to say that space travellers did not land here and mess with our ancestors?
So, today, I would like a helping of number 4 please, with a side of number 2 as a taster.

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I read Erick von Danish Pastry when I was very young and loved it! Certainly more convincing than "God did it".

Rick O'Shez said:

I read Erick von Danish Pastry when I was very young and loved it! Certainly more convincing than "God did it".

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Sure.
Who knows? One day we might actually reach some other planet, find life which can cope with that environs, and then somebody decides to adapt it (cross DNA) to carry our 'intelligence'. And then somebody else says.... 'errr.... is this what happened to us?'

Of course, if that is what happened to us, then those aliens made a rubbish job of it.

Brickjectivity said:

That is nice but presumes all things can be understood by us and observed or detected and I think it is not testable, so it results in presuming that the known and unknown are within a knowable universe.
True, but there is more to people than what is written about us in books. People have long used symbols to represent the unknown, and gods are words we attach to things we cannot discuss directly. Suppose that we are ancient Greeks. What causes people to fight? We almost know but not quite, so we call it 'Athena'.

Is this pure superstition? No. It is a system we have set up to think about things and allow them to be almost anything. So Athena is not merely the superstitious cause of war. She and her story are everything we know about War in symbolic form -- so that we can try to understand it. It is our algebra of the unknown. We honor the unknown in every way possible, because we don't know what it is. Its so that we can master the unknown and not merely to have an object of worship. Athena is called a goddess, but we know her function is to give us mastery of war. There is no delusion in ourselves about what her function is. This is human nature. Its what we do with every unknown.

You are doing the same thing -- hoping to master the unknown by calling it 'Universe'. Its like an algebra, so that you can examine something from many sides in order to better describe it. It is also no less superstitious, because you are assuming that everything can be understood when you have no way of being certain of it.

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I Think that the major difference here is that I am not afraid to say Unknown...
ALL religions will never claim they don't know something...

And as you said, It is all names we give for things we don't really know and can only speculate and guess...
And indeed.. I Hope we will "Master" the universe.. but i don't claim i mastered something i have zero knowledge about.

For example, your statement :

there is more to people than what is written about us in books.

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you can only Hope it is so..
You can't make that claim without having proof for that.

Have you seen the show Heroes? (Spoiler)...
Its about an Evolution of people who becomes owners of supernatural abilities due to some mutation or whatever..
In one of the episodes, it show a world where all humans have those powers and naturally, it is no longer supernatural rather a natural thing

So unfortunately for us.. the only thing we can say for certain is based on what we can prove...

I'm not saying personal experiences are any less important.. but they are what they are.. personal experiences that only maybe have some truth to them that is valid for the entire universe.

And no.. I'm quite certain that we will not find any answer soon that will provide an understanding of the origin of the universe...

jeager106 said:

1 & 2
God created and God IS an alien by definition.
God isn't from earth and resides someplace else.
God IS an ancient alien.
God is timeless and not of this Earth.
Does this fit the definition of an alien?

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Nope...
God is not somewhere else.. It is supposed to be everywhere in everything...
As God is not bound to time and space, it is not ancient.. it is just Is And Aliens are bound to time and space (I think at least)
So nope.. God is not an Alien.. God is an illusion

YmirGF said:

I'm not so sure we will ever really know if the universe is any of the 4 choices. It's and awfully large place and our incredibly small brains can only intuit so much data. My guess is that the answer to this question is a tad beyond our pay grade to answer. If only our intellectual honesty could help us understand that not knowing is completely OK.

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Not only that It's Ok.. its quite necessary!
If we thought we know everything.. we will never have the strive to learn

Segev Moran said:

Nope...
God is not somewhere else.. It is supposed to be everywhere in everything...
As God is not bound to time and space, it is not ancient.. it is just Is And Aliens are bound to time and space (I think at least)
So nope.. God is not an Alien.. God is an illusion

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No.
God is EVERYWHERE.
"Seeing" God is easy if you look for God.
Kinda of like the elephant in the living room.
If you close you eyes and don't see the elephant then the elephant isn't there.
One day that elephant steps on you and your existence ends as you, for the briefest of moments,
realize there IS an elephant.
I realize you are an atheist so that cited example will require some time and thought to understand the meaning.


I don't see god. I don't hear God. I can't smell God. There is no God!.
Got a banana?
I simple example of atheism for the atheists.
Simple is as simple believes.

Atheists need proof of that which cannot be proven.
Atheists breath our atmosphere.
We can't see it.
So atheists could simply stop breathing.
Then as they turn blue deny the existence of air.
Can't see electricity so stick your member in an electric outlet and you might come to believe.
Maybe.
Shocking what?
Atheist in a store when gunmen come in shooting to rob the place.
Atheist closes eyes tightly.
Robbery isn't happening because atheist can't see what's happening around them.

If I ignore atheists will they cease to exist?

Segev Moran said:

Sorry.. I Have to comment about your use of the word "Science"...
science is a very specific term that describes the ability to measure, test and experiment in order to achieve knowledge and understanding of things...
I Cannot see how science can be relevant for things beyond the physical or the natural.
It like saying.. the Christian science.. or Jewish science or Islamic science..
There is no such thing.. there is only Science.

You can however say Vedic is a theory or a philosophy...

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No, there is another use of the word science meaning making observations and describing. I didn't invent the term Vedic Science. But that is just a word quibble

Segev Moran said:

But thank you for the explanation.
And i have yet to come across any religion (or spirituality) you can call reasonable

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Well I am getting the impression you are not familiar with Vedic/Advaita thought, so it must not be one of those you have come across and judged for reasonableness.

jeager106 said:

No.
God is EVERYWHERE.

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Based on what?

"Seeing" God is easy if you look for God.

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The thing is, I Saw God.. So many times during my life.. .

Kinda of like the elephant in the living room.
If you close you eyes and don't see the elephant then the elephant isn't there.

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And that's the punch line.. You can only see God when your eyes are closed.. Open your eyes and don't miss out on the beautiful universe you live in.
God can be a beautiful thing if you treat it as it is... Faith.. not an undeniable truth..
So yes.. I've seen God.. Until I opened my eyes.

One day that elephant steps on you and your existence ends as you, for the briefest of moments,
realize there IS an elephant.

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The metaphor you just used Fits like a glove to the theism question.. Yes.. there is a HUGH elephant in the room!!!!
Open your eyes and realize the truth... The elephant will indeed step on you if you are not wise enough to realize that the elephant is not real!

I realize you are an atheist so that cited example will require some time and thought to understand the meaning.

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I Guess you assume that because I don't believe there is a God I can't grasp the idea of spirituality...
That's a very narrow minded POV.
The fact is that most atheists just grew out of religion.. I Was a big believer in spirituality and God.
But as I Grew older I Came to realize all those lies and fabrications.. all those tricks that religion uses for the one and only true purpose.. to have power...
I Do appreciate the spiritualists who define their own God.. and in doing so they concur that God is a Philosophical POV. Nothing more.

I Learned religions (Still am btw). I've red countless of books and articles and tested and examined probably more than you did in your life...
Yet everything led me to conclude that there is no real ground for believing that there really is a God...
And I am mature enough to admit that I might be wrong!!! If proof for God will pop.. I'll learn it, I'll examine it and I'll admit my wrong if needed!
Can't say the same about You I guess..

I don't see god. I don't hear God. I can't smell God. There is no God!.

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Not quite....
NO ONE can see God... NO ONE can hear God.,. No one can smell God, Nothing can measure God, There is not even one trace that there ever been a God, There are countless of "Evidence" that support thousands of other Gods.

On the other hand:

There are endless Evidences (Real ones.. not scripture like) that suggest that there is nothing "Designed" in the universe (Not intelligently at least),
As science advances, the number of people realizing that the Scriptures God is nothing but a story...
All the signs in the universe paint a picture where we are nothing but a small fraction of the universe's existence and we are lacking any significant impact on it.
We come to realize that everything we were told about the universe in the scriptures is based on lack of understanding the universe.
We live in a corrupt world that is led by people who claim they have the answers and God is on their side (While we know for a fact that a very big part of them is saying that just to gain more power where their actual beliefs has nothing to do with religion or God)

Our existence hangs on a thread that ONLY SCIENCE can solve..

Let me explain that a bit more:

If there is a Meteor speeding towards earth.. I Am pretty sure that the solution to that problem will be scientific.. and No.. Even if everyone on earth will pray as hard as they can, if there will be no scientific way of solving the problem, It will probably wont be solved.
And NO.. if every one prays and some scientist solve the problem... It wasn't thank to God.. it was Thank to the Scientist who solved it!

Take the Global warming..
Do you really think its a conspiracy of countless scientists around the world???? If we don't wake up, we are doomed.. and no God can help Us!

Got a banana?

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And yet again, Your ignorance is spilling all over.. I Bet you think we came from monkey right? Lol
No.. you won't find a monkey giving birth to a human in the Zoo LOLOLOL

I Wish you well.. Really do.. And I Respect each person and his beliefs.. But Don't sell yourself short..

Regards and God bless ()

George-ananda said:

No, there is another use of the word science meaning making observations and describing. I didn't invent the term Vedic Science. But that is just a word quibble

Well I am getting the impression you are not familiar with Vedic/Advaita thought, so it must not be one of those you have come across and judged for reasonableness.

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I'll go a head and learn it a bit more so I can debate you in a more respective way
I find it a lot of times that people debate against things they don't really know. So i guess we'll talk again in the future

Segev Moran said:

I'll go a head and learn it a bit more so I can debate you in a more respective way

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Why assume a debate? If you are open-minded it is also possible that we will have an agreement discussion.

jeager106 said:

If I ignore atheists will they cease to exist?

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Yes.. if there were no atheist to begin with

So in a way.. if Atheist were a fiction of your mind, and you stopped believing them.. Yep.. There will be no more atheists!

George-ananda said:

Why assume a debate? If you are open-minded it is also possible that we will have an agreement discussion.

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I Agree

Lol.. You are funny...

jeager106 said:

Atheists need proof of that which cannot be proven.

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Pretty much so.. yes.
But we do however might assume something based on other things..
So if i assume something is true.. and I can base this assumption on things I KNOW are true.. you get the point...

Atheists breath our atmosphere.

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Thank God for that

We can't see it.

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Depends.. not with a naked eye i guess...

So atheists could simply stop breathing.

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Hmmm.. So that seems a bit out of context...
I Can SEE the effect of our atmosphere...
I Can OBSERVE the impact of not having atmosphere
I Can MEASURE the things that create our atmosphere
I Can CALCULATE and USE the measures and Knowledge that I have about the Atmosphere...
So Yes.. I Do agree there is an atmosphere and i KNOW that i must breath in order to survive

Then as they turn blue deny the existence of air.

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Geez.. The fact that you don't know how science work.. or you are less knowledgeable about scientific concepts doesn't mean I Don't!

Can't see electricity so stick your member in an electric outlet and you might come to believe.

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Yet again... I Guess you don't really know what electricity is

Atheist in a store when gunmen come in shooting to rob the place.
Atheist closes eyes tightly.
Robbery isn't happening because atheist can't see what's happening around them.

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Lol.. I Wish That will kinda make me Super human no?

Look.. I Understand what you are trying to say..
You could have just plainly say: Atheist don't believe things they can't :
SEE, MEASURE, CALCULATE, USE, OBSERVE ETC...

Ehhhhhm.. DUH??????

Don't you think that the weird thing is to DO believe in things that we can not do any of that???

Segev Moran said:

Hi all,
These days there are numerous Major theories what our universe is...
In a nut shell:

1. Creationism - God, a super natural deity, created, designed and controls our universe.
2. Aliens - Our universe was created as an experiment / solution / mistake by an advanced alien specie
3. Simulation - Our universe is actually a computer simulation and we are all just an AI on some super advanced computer
4. Naturalism - All there is is Nature, Nothing more, Nothing less.

Regards.

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1, 2, 3 are NOT theories. They are at best unproved guesses... and that's being generous