Proof of God

Neo Deist · Aug 22, 2016

First and foremost, this is in the Deism DIR, so no debating! This post is for educational purposes only, to illustrate why deists differ from atheists with regard to a belief in God, as that is the only thing that really separates the two groups. Scientifically, both groups pretty much agree on everything.

It is often quoted by deists that they believe in God based on their personal observations of nature and the cosmos. However, very few deists actually elaborate on the subject. I would like to expand on the statement and offer natural reasons why I believe in God.

1. Eyeballs. This is, without a doubt, one of my go to topics. If you stop and think about it, what is an eye? It is a collection of various tissues, some liquid, and it attaches to the brain via the optic nerve. But HOW does it work? What actually allows for that hodgepodge of stuff to come together and give living beings vision? Why would nature (without God) design such a thing? How would it know how to design such a thing? The eye is a complex organ.

2. Butterflies. Why would a worm decide to spin a cocoon, hibernate for a while and then completely transform itself into a flying species? What is the purpose behind it? Other worms don't do that. They simply remain as worms. How would nature (without God) design such a creature? Nature does not think, plan or come up with blueprints...if it does, you are now talking about pandeism.

3. Matter. Prior to life, all matter was nonliving. Rock, dust, minerals, elements, etc. Why would nonliving material suddenly develop living material and spring forth life? How would inanimate objects such as rocks, frozen methane, or iron ore know how to design single cell organisms, and spawn evolution?

4. Earth. Our planet is perfectly situated in our solar system to allow for life. Not too hot, not too cold. The sun's energy feeds the plants, which give off oxygen. Creatures breathe that oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, which helps fuel the plants. Our atmosphere shields us from the sun's violent radiation that would otherwise fry everything around us.

Gravity holds us in place in orbit around the sun, with our moon transfixed in orbit around us, and it controls the tides. We have seasons based on the earth's position to the sun, with the opposite season in the southern hemisphere because of the earth's tilt at a particular time of year.

Water falls from the sky, runs across the ground feeding both plants and animals, and eventually evaporates back into the sky where the process starts all over again.

5. Emotions. Why would nonliving, inanimate objects design emotions? We feel love, anger, jealousy, hatred, sadness, pride, happiness, fear, courage, etc. Why would those feelings come about from randomness in nature (without God)? What would be the point? Why give us a conscience?

These are but a handful of the reasons that I believe in God as the creator of the universe. I see intelligent design, not random acts of nature. Many things follow a natural path or natural law, but God is the designer behind those laws. God created the universe and set everything in motion. Atheists and deists agree that the Big Bang is a plausible theory. The difference is that atheists can't explain what caused the Big Bang, while deists simply say "God caused it."

Whether or not God has an interest in us and interacts with us is a different matter.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 22, 2016

Neo Deist said:
First and foremost, this is in the Deism DIR, so no debating! This post is for educational purposes only, to illustrate why deists differ from atheists with regard to a belief in God, as that is the only thing that really separates the two groups. Scientifically, both groups pretty much agree on everything.

It is often quoted by deists that they believe in God based on their personal observations of nature and the cosmos. However, very few deists actually elaborate on the subject. I would like to expand on the statement and offer natural reasons why I believe in God.

1. Eyeballs. This is, without a doubt, one of my go to topics. If you stop and think about it, what is an eye? It is a collection of various tissues, some liquid, and it attaches to the brain via the optic nerve. But HOW does it work? What actually allows for that hodgepodge of stuff to come together and give living beings vision? Why would nature (without God) design such a thing? How would it know how to design such a thing? The eye is a complex organ.

2. Butterflies. Why would a worm decide to spin a cocoon, hibernate for a while and then completely transform itself into a flying species? What is the purpose behind it? Other worms don't do that. They simply remain as worms. How would nature (without God) design such a creature? Nature does not think, plan or come up with blueprints...if it does, you are now talking about pandeism.

3. Matter. Prior to life, all matter was nonliving. Rock, dust, minerals, elements, etc. Why would nonliving material suddenly develop living material and spring forth life? How would inanimate objects such as rocks, frozen methane, or iron ore know how to design single cell organisms, and spawn evolution?

4. Earth. Our planet is perfectly situated in our solar system to allow for life. Not too hot, not too cold. The sun's energy feeds the plants, which give off oxygen. Creatures breathe that oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, which helps fuel the plants. Our atmosphere shields us from the sun's violent radiation that would otherwise fry everything around us.

Gravity holds us in place in orbit around the sun, with our moon transfixed in orbit around us, and it controls the tides. We have seasons based on the earth's position to the sun, with the opposite season in the southern hemisphere because of the earth's tilt at a particular time of year.

Water falls from the sky, runs across the ground feeding both plants and animals, and eventually evaporates back into the sky where the process starts all over again.

5. Emotions. Why would nonliving, inanimate objects design emotions? We feel love, anger, jealousy, hatred, sadness, pride, happiness, fear, courage, etc. Why would those feelings come about from randomness in nature (without God)? What would be the point? Why give us a conscience?

These are but a handful of the reasons that I believe in God as the creator of the universe. I see intelligent design, not random acts of nature. Many things follow a natural path or natural law, but God is the designer behind those laws. God created the universe and set everything in motion. Atheists and deists agree that the Big Bang is a plausible theory. The difference is that atheists can't explain what caused the Big Bang, while deists simply say "God caused it."

Whether or not God has an interest in us and interacts with us is a different matter.

Nice. May I -ask?

All of these things you mentioned it would make sense to the environment Im in that because of these reasons there would be a personal god. A god that not only designs what you listed ans interacts and forms these things but bumans as well. Taking out the abrahamic and any specific god.

How or why would you be a deist given the intrigent works of god not only in nature but in human design as well?

Why would a deist see god as not approachable when he does i nature?

If these reasons are true (for sake of DIR they are), why are you a deist?

illykitty · Aug 22, 2016

I really hope my response/question is appropriate for the DIR, as I do not want to debate but to ask a question which elaborates on the OP. However, I understand if this post is removed. I might just make a new thread about this question if there isn't one already, since it could be interesting to get more answers.

I think that proof of a deity to some, are not proof to others because of different perspectives. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but to me, none of these things point to me towards a deity for various reasons. And there are parts of nature which are truly horrible, that no sane person would design in such a way, such as lifeforms which survive by slowly and horribly killing others. Other things are not well designed, such as some human body parts.

Do you think that there's a degree of subjective perspective that applies to seeing proof of a deity?

Neo Deist · Aug 22, 2016

Altfish said:
I know you said no debate, but...

The eye is not a good design. Engineers could design a better one.
It has a blind spot - why?

Good question, but the point is HOW does a collection of tissue allow for vision in the first place, and HOW did nature come up with that development on its own, if not for God. Just something to think about.

Neo Deist · Aug 22, 2016

Carlita said:
Nice. May I -ask?

All of these things you mentioned it would make sense to the environment Im in that because of these reasons there would be a personal god. A god that not only designs what you listed ans interacts and forms these things but bumans as well. Taking out the abrahamic and any specific god.

How or why would you be a deist given the intrigent works of god not only in nature but in human design as well?

Why would a deist see god as not approachable when he does i nature?

If these reasons are true (for sake of DIR they are), why are you a deist?

Not quite sure I follow you...

The above are just some of the reasons that I believe in God as the creator of the universe, but as a deist I take it a step further and view the universe as following a natural path and natural law, both of which God designed and set in place long ago. God does not need to "steer the ship" so to speak, as everything develops per those natural laws which includes evolution. One might call it deistic evolution (following the God created laws of nature over the course of time) as opposed to theistic evolution (God is actively controlling evolution and is involved with it every step of the way).

As far as God being approachable, I connect with God on a spiritual level, especially when I am outdoors and enjoying nature. I pray to God on a daily basis, but my prayers are ones of gratitude not "I need something." This is why many deists say they are spiritual, not religious. We do not follow any organized religion with all of their man made holy books, dogma, tenets, traditions, etc. No one has seen God. No one knows if God is male, female or an it. For all intent and purposes, God could simply be a non corporeal entity such as energy. Deists simply say, "we believe in God for personal reasons" and leave it at that.

Given that deists acknowledge science and advancement, we tend to think on a cosmic scale instead of an earth centric one. The Bible was written during an earth centric time period, because they did not know any better. They did not have telescopes.

Neo Deist · Aug 22, 2016

Reversing your post outline...

illykitty said:
Do you think that there's a degree of subjective perspective that applies to seeing proof of a deity?

Yes!

May I ask, what is your favorite color? Why is that your favorite color as opposed to someone else's choice? What is your favorite food? Why would other people dislike that food?

Humans always have and always will see things differently. That is the beauty of free will.

illykitty said:
I really hope my response/question is appropriate for the DIR, as I do not want to debate but to ask a question which elaborates on the OP. However, I understand if this post is removed. I might just make a new thread about this question if there isn't one already, since it could be interesting to get more answers.

I think that proof of a deity to some, are not proof to others because of different perspectives. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but to me, none of these things point to me towards a deity for various reasons.

Perception is everything. Eye of the beholder.

illykitty said:
And there are parts of nature which are truly horrible, that no sane person would design in such a way, such as lifeforms which survive by slowly and horribly killing others.

Natural selection at its finest.

Maggots are disgusting but they clean up dead flesh. Tidal waves are destructive, but no one forces us to live on the beach. Volcanoes are destructive, so why build on the side of one (think Hawaii)? If you know that tornadoes always follow a certain path down this valley, why the hell would you put a house there? Lightning can be some scary stuff, so why go outside during a storm?

illykitty said:
Other things are not well designed, such as some human body parts.

I agree. As someone who has acid reflux, a hiatal hernia and peptic ulcers I have often questioned WHY. My question was answered when my gastro doctor said that taking Excedrin (NSAID) caused the ulcers, the stomach flu with the 12 hour puke fest and dry heaves caused the hernia, and reflux is a by product of all the crap I was eating/drinking. Genetically we are very diverse. My body simply does not like tomato based or acidic foods. At the same time, I do not have cancer, diabetes, heart disease, blindness, deafness, etc. That stuff just doesn't run in my family.

Many of the problems we encounter with our bodies today can be attributed to our lifestyles, not God's design.

Altfish · Aug 22, 2016

Neo Deist said:
Good question, but the point is HOW does a collection of tissue allow for vision in the first place, and HOW did nature come up with that development on its own, if not for God. Just something to think about.

There are many places on the internet that explains the evolution of the eye, I include just one, Wikipedia...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

Neo Deist · Aug 22, 2016

Altfish said:
There are many places on the internet that explains the evolution of the eye, I include just one, Wikipedia...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

I am not debating on a DIR but I said what makes a collection of tissue, fluid and nerves give us the ability to see, not how did eyes come about. In other words, what decided that living beings need vision? How did "non-deity" nature come up with the concept of an eye? Yes I am aware of the theories of evolution and support them. That still does not explain the design behind the eye.

Why did "non deity" nature decide that we need to see in color? Why not just black and white, or gray scale? Why give some creatures the ability to see in the dark but not others?

These are questions that science can't really answer. Yes we know how eyes evolved to include certain animals having "night vision," but it still does not answer HOW eyes give us the ability to see.

I am not talking about seeing an image and your brain processes it and all that. I am talking about HOW does an organ allow us to see. Maybe I am not getting my point across?

Altfish · Aug 22, 2016

Neo Deist said:
I am not debating on a DIR but I said what makes a collection of tissue, fluid and nerves give us the ability to see, not how did eyes come about. In other words, what decided that living beings need vision? How did "non-deity" nature come up with the concept of an eye? Yes I am aware of the theories of evolution and support them. That still does not explain the design behind the eye.

But it does.
Because if you look at the eye's development on the Wiki page from a minor light sensitive indentation to the modern eye; then understand that the first 'animals' to have the very basic first eyes had an evolutionary advantage over those that didn't. Therefore evolution favoured those with the eye had more off spring with eyes.

Neo Deist · Aug 22, 2016

Altfish said:
But it does.
Because if you look at the eye's development on the Wiki page from a minor light sensitive indentation to the modern eye; then understand that the first 'animals' to have the very basic first eyes had an evolutionary advantage over those that didn't. Therefore evolution favoured those with the eye had more off spring with eyes.

No, you're not getting my point. But I am stopping here because this is a DIR.

buddhist · Aug 23, 2016

Besides evolution vs creation, I see a third option: this universe is simply one realized potential out of infinity.

Unveiled Artist · Aug 24, 2016

Neo Deist said:
Good question, but the point is HOW does a collection of tissue allow for vision in the first place, and HOW did nature come up with that development on its own, if not for God. Just something to think about.

Can I -ask?

Unless by god you mean a force or "breathe" or in scientific terms, energy, that creates things of nature that we detect and define in it beauty and pattern, why or how does deism logically connect the workings of the eye with god?

I guess a better example than the eye, I'd use, is sperm and egg. In deism, the movement behind both that come together and create a baby would be god?

If an entity rather than source of movement/energy, can you explain from a deist point of view, how does the pattern and formation of the eye let's you see anyone created it other than nature itself?

Hard to ask here. I do want to understand this from a deist perspective. Would you like to have an interfaith talk?

Milton Platt · Aug 24, 2016

Neo Deist said:
First and foremost, this is in the Deism DIR, so no debating! This post is for educational purposes only, to illustrate why deists differ from atheists with regard to a belief in God, as that is the only thing that really separates the two groups. Scientifically, both groups pretty much agree on everything.

It is often quoted by deists that they believe in God based on their personal observations of nature and the cosmos. However, very few deists actually elaborate on the subject. I would like to expand on the statement and offer natural reasons why I believe in God.

1. Eyeballs. This is, without a doubt, one of my go to topics. If you stop and think about it, what is an eye? It is a collection of various tissues, some liquid, and it attaches to the brain via the optic nerve. But HOW does it work? What actually allows for that hodgepodge of stuff to come together and give living beings vision? Why would nature (without God) design such a thing? How would it know how to design such a thing? The eye is a complex organ.

2. Butterflies. Why would a worm decide to spin a cocoon, hibernate for a while and then completely transform itself into a flying species? What is the purpose behind it? Other worms don't do that. They simply remain as worms. How would nature (without God) design such a creature? Nature does not think, plan or come up with blueprints...if it does, you are now talking about pandeism.

3. Matter. Prior to life, all matter was nonliving. Rock, dust, minerals, elements, etc. Why would nonliving material suddenly develop living material and spring forth life? How would inanimate objects such as rocks, frozen methane, or iron ore know how to design single cell organisms, and spawn evolution?

4. Earth. Our planet is perfectly situated in our solar system to allow for life. Not too hot, not too cold. The sun's energy feeds the plants, which give off oxygen. Creatures breathe that oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, which helps fuel the plants. Our atmosphere shields us from the sun's violent radiation that would otherwise fry everything around us.

Gravity holds us in place in orbit around the sun, with our moon transfixed in orbit around us, and it controls the tides. We have seasons based on the earth's position to the sun, with the opposite season in the southern hemisphere because of the earth's tilt at a particular time of year.

Water falls from the sky, runs across the ground feeding both plants and animals, and eventually evaporates back into the sky where the process starts all over again.

5. Emotions. Why would nonliving, inanimate objects design emotions? We feel love, anger, jealousy, hatred, sadness, pride, happiness, fear, courage, etc. Why would those feelings come about from randomness in nature (without God)? What would be the point? Why give us a conscience?

These are but a handful of the reasons that I believe in God as the creator of the universe. I see intelligent design, not random acts of nature. Many things follow a natural path or natural law, but God is the designer behind those laws. God created the universe and set everything in motion. Atheists and deists agree that the Big Bang is a plausible theory. The difference is that atheists can't explain what caused the Big Bang, while deists simply say "God caused it."

Whether or not God has an interest in us and interacts with us is a different matter.

I see issues with all of the things you listed plus even if none of that is explainable (which is not really so) how does that get you to a deity? Seems you are just stuffing a deity in the cracks between knowledge. Not expecting an answer.....you aren't looking for a discussion, and if you do, then everyone will pile on and your thread will go to crap. This is informative, I usually don't give deists much thought. Thanks!!!

Neo Deist · Aug 24, 2016

Carlita said:
Can I -ask?

Unless by god you mean a force or "breathe" or in scientific terms, energy, that creates things of nature that we detect and define in it beauty and pattern, why or how does deism logically connect the workings of the eye with god?

I guess a better example than the eye, I'd use, is sperm and egg. In deism, the movement behind both that come together and create a baby would be god?

If an entity rather than source of movement/energy, can you explain from a deist point of view, how does the pattern and formation of the eye let's you see anyone created it other than nature itself?

Hard to ask here. I do want to understand this from a deist perspective. Would you like to have an interfaith talk?

If you want an interfaith discussion, I am fine with that. Start one or just PM me and we'll go from there.

Neo Deist · Aug 24, 2016

Milton Platt said:
I see issues with all of the things you listed plus even if none of that is explainable (which is not really so) how does that get you to a deity?

Easy...deists choose to believe in a deity. The interesting thing is, if science proves beyond a doubt that there is no God, deists don't really lose anything. We love and explore science as much as any hardened atheist.

Many deists started off as something else (Baptist for me) but as we got older we started questioning things. The Church does not like questions...they want followers, not thinkers. As you work through your faith (or the lack thereof) you try and find footing somewhere.

The belief in God usually stems from our previous religious affiliation and we just don't want to give up the idea of God. We like thinking there is a creator. We like thinking that there is an afterlife. We can't prove any of it, but trying to convert others to deism is not something we do. It is a personal, spiritual journey.

ArtieE · Aug 25, 2016

Neo Deist said:
1. Eyeballs. This is, without a doubt, one of my go to topics. If you stop and think about it, what is an eye? It is a collection of various tissues, some liquid, and it attaches to the brain via the optic nerve. But HOW does it work? What actually allows for that hodgepodge of stuff to come together and give living beings vision? Why would nature (without God) design such a thing? How would it know how to design such a thing? The eye is a complex organ.

3. Matter. Prior to life, all matter was nonliving. Rock, dust, minerals, elements, etc. Why would nonliving material suddenly develop living material and spring forth life? How would inanimate objects such as rocks, frozen methane, or iron ore know how to design single cell organisms, and spawn evolution?

Chemical evolution. http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/lattimer/AST248/lecture_13.pdf http://science.jrank.org/pages/1387/Chemical-Evolution.html

4. Earth. Our planet is perfectly situated in our solar system to allow for life. Not too hot, not too cold. The sun's energy feeds the plants, which give off oxygen. Creatures breathe that oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide, which helps fuel the plants. Our atmosphere shields us from the sun's violent radiation that would otherwise fry everything around us.

Gravity holds us in place in orbit around the sun, with our moon transfixed in orbit around us, and it controls the tides. We have seasons based on the earth's position to the sun, with the opposite season in the southern hemisphere because of the earth's tilt at a particular time of year.

Water falls from the sky, runs across the ground feeding both plants and animals, and eventually evaporates back into the sky where the process starts all over again.

Astronomers estimate 100 billion habitable Earth-like planets in the Milky Way, 50 sextillion in the universe. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...n-the-milky-way-50-sextillion-in-the-universe
What are the chances of a planet like Earth not existing? Too small too consider.

5. Emotions. Why would nonliving, inanimate objects design emotions? We feel love, anger, jealousy, hatred, sadness, pride, happiness, fear, courage, etc. Why would those feelings come about from randomness in nature (without God)? What would be the point? Why give us a conscience?

Improves our chances of survival.

These are but a handful of the reasons that I believe in God as the creator of the universe. I see intelligent design, not random acts of nature. Many things follow a natural path or natural law, but God is the designer behind those laws. God created the universe and set everything in motion. Atheists and deists agree that the Big Bang is a plausible theory. The difference is that atheists can't explain what caused the Big Bang, while deists simply say "God caused it."

And once upon a time people also claimed Thor caused thunder and Poseidon caused earthquakes until some of us realized how useless it is to blame gods for things.

Thief · Aug 25, 2016

I consider ....cause and effect .....natural.....

God did it

Neo Deist · Aug 25, 2016

ArtieE said:
Chemical evolution. http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/lattimer/AST248/lecture_13.pdf http://science.jrank.org/pages/1387/Chemical-Evolution.htmlAstronomers estimate 100 billion habitable Earth-like planets in the Milky Way, 50 sextillion in the universe. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...n-the-milky-way-50-sextillion-in-the-universe
What are the chances of a planet like Earth not existing? Too small too consider.Improves our chances of survival.And once upon a time people also claimed Thor caused thunder and Poseidon caused earthquakes until some of us realized how useless it is to blame gods for things.

Once again, I did not ask for the evolution of the eyeball. That is not what I am referring to. But your post is coming dangerously close to a debate in a DIR, so stop there. Besides, nothing you stated answered my questions.

ArtieE · Aug 25, 2016

Neo Deist said:
Once again, I did not ask for the evolution of the eyeball. That is not what I am referring to. But your post is coming dangerously close to a debate in a DIR, so stop there. Besides, nothing you stated answered my questions.

Why did you produce a post with (if I have counted correctly) 14 questions in it mentioning atheists several times and then put it in the Deist DIR so atheists wouldn't have a chance to answer?

Neo Deist · Aug 25, 2016

ArtieE said:
Why did you produce a post with (if I have counted correctly) 14 questions in it mentioning atheists several times and then put it in the Deist DIR so atheists wouldn't have a chance to answer?

Reread the first 6 sentences of the OP.

Proof of God

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