What did Jesus Sacrifice?

djhwoodwerks said:

Huh? If His body wasn't the temple He was referring to, what is "the temple of His body"? What was the "temple of His body", did His body have a temple?

1 Corinthians 3:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (ESV Strong's) Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

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I believe it was the temple, I simply believe that the body that was to be raised up after three days was a spiritual as the scriptures state.

(1 Cor 15:45 NIV) “..So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam [Jesus], a life-giving spirit…

djhwoodwerks said:

Correct, Jesus is only the Jesus of the "flesh". So therefore, when it says, "Jesus Himself" and, "it is I myself", it means Jesus stood there, not some counterfeit body.

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If Jesus can only be of the flesh then what was Jesus before he "became flesh" (John 1:14) when in heaven?

You keep shying away from my question, If Jesus was raised in a body of flesh then what did he sacrifice if he took back the body he sacrificed?

NWL said:

If Jesus was raised in a body of flesh then what did he sacrifice if he took back the body he sacrificed?

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I thought it is being taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus sacrificed the doing of his own will so that Jehovah used him to preach Jehovah's will. Saying that he might have sacrificed his self respect was not trolling. It's true. You know it is true! Why can't JWs ever admit anything? Psalms 69:7

I am assuming JW means Jehovah's Witness.

George-ananda said:

You know, no offense to you, but for Christianity to continue its relevance in the modern educated world, it has to accord with reason as opposed to saying 'I'm taking the scripture of what it states'. It is us well-intentioned people that are not following the logic in certain dogmas.

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No offense taken friend.

If you think its incorrect to take scripture for what it states then I don't think you know what it means to be a christian. As I clearly mentioned before the sacrifice of animals and the pouring out of the blood in the nation of Israel actually took place, even during Jesus day it was taking place. Jesus became the sacrificial lamb once for all time so that animal sacrifice would stop and mankind be truly redeemed. Hebrews 1:1-10 clearly explains this. Therefore I'm not taking scripture too literally but understanding what it clearly teaches.

You're ignorance on the subject isn't proof that I'm incorrect or over-logical.

(Hebrews 10:1-18) "..For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would not the sacrifices have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service once cleansed would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 On the contrary, these sacrifices are a reminder of sins year after year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away. 5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time..."

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NWL said:

No offense taken friend.

If you think its incorrect to take scripture for what it states then I don't think you know what it means to be a christian. As I clearly mentioned before the sacrifice of animals and the pouring out of the blood in the nation of Israel actually took place, even during Jesus day it was taking place. Jesus became the sacrificial lamb once for all time so that animal sacrifice would stop and mankind be truly redeemed. Hebrews 1:1-10 clearly explains this. Therefore I'm not taking scripture too literally but understanding what it clearly teaches.

You're ignorance on the subject isn't proof that I'm incorrect or over-logical.

(Hebrews 10:1-18) "..For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would not the sacrifices have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service once cleansed would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 On the contrary, these sacrifices are a reminder of sins year after year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away. 5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time..."

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I can understand the symbology and the thinking of some people of that period that you are pointing out. But what does that mean to people today?

NWL said:

(1 Cor 15:45 NIV) “..So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam [Jesus], a life-giving spirit…”

(1 Peter 3:18 NIV) “..For Christ also suffered once for sins... He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit..”

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Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is alive in the Spirit?

George-ananda said:

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I can understand the symbology and the thinking of some people of that period that you are pointing out. But what does that mean to people today?

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It means exactly the same thing to us as it did to them, expect, instead of inadequate animals with have Jesus the lamb instead. Moving back to the topic of discussion, if a Israelite was to offer an animal as a sacrifice upon the alter back then, but before it was consumed took the sacrifice off from the alter and kept it for himself he in effect as given no sacrifice. Likewise if Jesus sacrificed his body and blood for us, the same way an was placed upon the sacrificial alter, but then took back part of the sacrifice, then he has nullified the sacrifice. This shows that Jesus wasn't raised in the flesh, but rather raised as a spirit just as the scriptures clearly state.

(1 Cor 15:45 NIV) “..So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam [Jesus], a life-giving spirit…”

(1 Peter 3:18 NIV) “..For Christ also suffered once for sins... He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit..

You keep shying away from my question, If Jesus was raised in a body of flesh then what did he sacrifice if he took back the body he sacrificed?

Brickjectivity said:

You can't have it both ways. A sacrifice is cooked, but every participant eats it or is sprinkled by its ashes. They don't just pantomime eating it.

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How am I trying to have it both ways?

Brickjectivity said:

To be tempted is a sin. Men desire one another's wives, for example, simply because we are men. Its just how we are. We are told plainly that Jesus is tempted, so Jesus is guilty of sin before he dies, showing the struggle within him. He wins the struggle, obeying, and so he reverses the judgment against Adam's kin. I am not suggesting he gave into temptation, but he was not sinless. His body was imperfect. Romans 6:23 takes into account the variety of sins in the Bible, such as temptation.

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People attempted to tempt Jesus but never was Jesus tempted or gave into temptation, this being said, show me a single scripture that states Jesus was tempted or sinned as you claim.

Lets also consider these verse to establish if Jesus sinned:

(1 Peter 2:22) "..He [Jesus] committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.."

(1 John 3:5) You know, too, that he [Jesus] was made manifest to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him.

(1 Peter 1:18, 19) For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, that of Christ.

(Hebrews 4:15) "..For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.."

NWL said:

It means exactly the same thing to us as it did to them, expect, instead of inadequate animals with have Jesus the lamb instead. Moving back to the topic of discussion, if a Israelite was to offer an animal as a sacrifice upon the alter back then, but before it was consumed took the sacrifice off from the alter and kept it for himself he in effect as given no sacrifice. Likewise if Jesus sacrificed his body and blood for us, the same way an was placed upon the sacrificial alter, but then took back part of the sacrifice, then he has nullified the sacrifice. This shows that Jesus wasn't raised in the flesh, but rather raised as a spirit just as the scriptures clearly state.

(1 Cor 15:45 NIV) “..So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam [Jesus], a life-giving spirit…”

(1 Peter 3:18 NIV) “..For Christ also suffered once for sins... He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit..

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I guess my question comes down to: what if people that don't believe in the need for a sacrifice (i.e. that it was some ancient idea that was misunderstood and no longer pertinent)? What happens to their souls after their death?

George-ananda said:

I guess my question comes down to: what if people that don't believe in the need for a sacrifice (i.e. that it was some ancient idea that was misunderstood and no longer pertinent)? What happens to their souls after their death?

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(Romans 6:23) "..For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.."

(Hebrews 5:9) "..And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."

As you can see we are all sinners, because of this we all die. But, by accepting the the ransom of Jesus Christ and obey his commands allows us to gain everlasting life as a gift from God.

Therefore those who do not wish to accept Jesus ransom will not gain this gift, when they die they will be dead forever. Ecclesiastes 9:5 states concerning the dead "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all", God said to Adam "For dust you are and to dust you will return" (Gen 3:19), thus if a man dies, and does not accept the ransom will simply return to the dust and cease to exist.

NWL said:

Jesus sacrificed his life to atone for our sins yes. Jesus was a sacrifice, period. To claim Jesus wasn't a sacrifice but like one, is to deny scripture.

(Ephesians 5:2) "..and go on walking in love, just as the Christ also loved us and gave himself for us as an offering and a sacrifice, a sweet fragrance to God.."

You're mistaken, his body was not the embodiment of evil. Jesus body reassembled the perfect sinless body that was lost by Adam when he sinned and condemned mankind, "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned" (Romans 5:12). Hence the reason why Jesus was called the last Adam, as he took his place. Imagine a set of scales, Adam imbalanced the when he sinned causing man to become sinful and die, Jesus, being perfect, took Adam place and gave his life which has now re-balanced the scales.

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Maybe this is a different subject, but isn't that somewhat paganism to have a physical person's body (rather than animal) offered as a sacrifice?

If Jesus's flesh actually atoned people, that's like the bread and wine (physical food and drink) are actually Jesus Christ. The physical actually being the spiritual to provide literal salvation.

I don't know out of all the scripture that we agree on this; but, it would make sense that Jesus body after his Crucifixion wasn't his real body-the flesh that was crucified. If that be the case, what was the point of the crucifiction of the "sin" came back? I'd say Jesus looked like himself for his disciples to recognize him. It's another deeper way to say "hey, guys, I am not dead. I have just risen with my father." His flesh/sins died.

With the bodily resurrection, not many Christians I know believe his physical body-the one he had at sacrifice-did. I'm more aware of he came back in his perfect bodily form as God and rose that way.

That is, of course, assuming Jesus is the father.

NWL said:

(Romans 6:23) "..For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.."

(Hebrews 5:9) "..And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."

As you can see we are all sinners, because of this we all die. But, by accepting the the ransom of Jesus Christ and obey his commands allows us to gain everlasting life as a gift from God.

Therefore those who do not wish to accept Jesus ransom will not gain this gift, when they die they will be dead forever. Ecclesiastes 9:5 states concerning the dead "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all", God said to Adam "For dust you are and to dust you will return" (Gen 3:19), thus if a man dies, and does not accept the ransom will simply return to the dust and cease to exist.

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That's fine if you believe all that, but by what logic can you tell others that something against their common sense (God requiring His son's sacrifice) is true. Do you consider the possibility that these scriptures may have had some good and bad ideas in them?

NWL said:

How am I trying to have it both ways?

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Either its transubstantiation and sacrifice, or its not literal transubstantiation and literal sacrifice. Choose a pair or be unfair.

NWL said:

People attempted to tempt Jesus but never was Jesus tempted or gave into temptation, this being said, show me a single scripture that states Jesus was tempted or sinned as you claim.

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A single scripture cannot do that but here is an interesting one: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom 3:23) This includes Jesus since Hebrews 5:29 points out he is not perfected until his death. The main reason though is that Jesus has a human heart, and the Law teaches that that Law must be kept with the heart not only with actions. Jeremiah testifies that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. (Jer 17:29) If Jesus heart was human it was sinful.

NWL said:

Lets also consider these verse to establish if Jesus sinned:

(1 Peter 2:22) "..He [Jesus] committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.."

(1 John 3:5) You know, too, that he [Jesus] was made manifest to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him.

(1 Peter 1:18, 19) For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, that of Christ.

(Hebrews 4:15) "..For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.."

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The first verse doesn't contradict me, since Jesus doesn't do anything wrong on purpose. The middle two verses are about Jesus after his resurrection. The fourth verse demonstrates Jesus was tested in every way demonstrating his evil human heart, because if his heart wasn't evil he couldn't be tempted.

Brickjectivity said:

Either its transubstantiation and sacrifice, or its not literal transubstantiation and literal sacrifice. Choose a pair or be unfair.

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When you say "transubstantiation" I take it you mean the conversion of the bread and wine into the actual body of Jesus flesh and blood. This is never taught it scripture my friend, when Jesus talked about his body and bread in Matthew 26:26, and like accounts, he was talking about the bread and wine as representing his flesh and blood in a symbolic way. The law forbid Jews from drinking blood, so to claim Jesus made the his disciples and himself drink the blood, when he "upheld the law perfectly" means he allowed himself and his followers disobey the law contrary to what scripture states. Again, bread and wine represents Jesus body symbolically, no one ever ate any of his flesh or blood, literally.

Moreover there is nothing in scripture that shows the Jesus literally giving his body and blood for us means you HAVE to accept transubstantiation, this is simply your wild claim that you haven't displayed to me using scripture.

NWL said:

People attempted to tempt Jesus but never was Jesus tempted or gave into temptation, this being said, show me a single scripture that states Jesus was tempted or sinned as you claim.

Brickjectivity said:

A single scripture cannot do that but here is an interesting one: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom 3:23) This includes Jesus since Hebrews 5:29 points out he is not perfected until his death. The main reason though is that Jesus has a human heart, and the Law teaches that that Law must be kept with the heart not only with actions. Jeremiah testifies that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. (Jer 17:29) If Jesus heart was human it was sinful.

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Brickjectivity said:

The first verse doesn't contradict me, since Jesus doesn't do anything wrong on purpose.

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The first verse I gave DOES contradict you, the context of 1 Peter 3:5 does not classify the sinless nature of Jesus being in regards to him sinning on purpose or not, this is your assumption. Show me a single shred of evidence to suggest the verse is talking about Jesus sinless nature here being in regards him not doing anything wrong on purpose.

Brickjectivity said:

The middle two verses are about Jesus after his resurrection.

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You claim Jesus was sinful by nature, as he was human, if this was the case then he DID have sin in him, yet 1 John 3:5 "there was no sin in him", the fact this was referring to Jesus after his resurrection changes nothing, how you think it does I don't know. Secondly 1 Peter 1:18,19 is referring to Jesus at the time of his death, hence the reason the speaker compares him to the sacrificial lamb being offered up, and how does it describe him "unblemished and spotless", so at the time of Jesus death, before his resurrection Jesus was "unblemished and spotless", this goes directly contrary to what you claim.

Brickjectivity said:

The fourth verse demonstrates Jesus was tested in every way demonstrating his evil human heart, because if his heart wasn't evil he couldn't be tempted.

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I'm not trying to be rude here, but this reasoning is incredibly stupid. Lets imagine a perfect man was standing in front of you. If I attempt to tempt that perfect sinless man, and the sinless man doesn't give into sin, is this proof that the man is now sinful? No! As the man still hasn't sinned. Likewise, just because Jesus was tested doesn't mean that his heart or himself was sinful, Jesus had the potential to become sinful, just like Adam did, but he never did, thus he was and still is without sin.

2 Cor 5:21 states "The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness." 2 Cor 5:21 clearly shows Jesus "did not know sin", this included his nature and his human heart that you make mention of. Jesus was born outside from sin unlike the rest of mankind (Rom 3:23), therefore he was not deserving of death hence the reason why death could not hold him and he was resurrected. Romans 6:23 states the "wages for sin is death", if Jesus was sinful then how could he even be our ransom, since it would count for nothing since he was already deserving of death as Romans 6:23 states?

You keep shying away from my question, If Jesus was raised in a body of flesh then what did he sacrifice if he took back the body he sacrificed?

2 Timothy 2:14

NWL said:

You never answered the question, If Jesus was raised in a body of flesh then what did he sacrifice if he took back the body he sacrificed?

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Since this is a watchtower teaching, I'll answer with a question, under the law, what did God accept as a sacrifice? Was it the "body" (flesh) of animals, or was it the "blood" (life) of the animals?

NWL said:

Due to Jesus perfect sinless nature with him not being deserving of death, "death could not hold him" (Acts 2:24).

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Acts 2:24 (ESV Strong's) 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

You can make the above statement, quote the above verse, and still claim that Jesus' "body" was not raised from the grave?

Does a persons spirit, or life force die or does it return to God? Isn't it the fleshly, human body that dies? If a life force can't die, how can it be, "loosed from the pangs of death"?

NWL said:

As you can see we are all sinners, because of this we all die. But, by accepting the the ransom of Jesus Christ and obey his commands allows us to gain everlasting life as a gift from God.

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This is contradictory isn't it? We have to "work" to get this "gift" from God?

If we accept the sacrifice of Jesus, and obey His commands, "then" we get the "gift" of everlasting life.

djhwoodwerks said:

Since this is a watchtower teaching, I'll answer with a question, under the law, what did God accept as a sacrifice? Was it the "body" (flesh) of animals, or was it the "blood" (life) of the animals?

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Lets see.

(Leviticus 16:27) “..And the bull of the sin offering and the goat of the sin offering, whose blood was brought into the holy place to make atonement, will be taken outside the camp, and their skins and their flesh and their dung will be burned in the fire.."

(John 1:29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

(Hebrews 13:11, 12) For the bodies of those animals whose blood is taken into the holy place as a sin offering by the high priest are burned up outside the camp. 12 Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people with his own blood.."

The Israelite's, in order for their sin offering to take affect, had to obey the statues that God put in place regarding the sin offering. One regulation of this was to burn their skins and their flesh outside the city gate so that the offering of the blood could make atonement. The disciples of Jesus understood this, hence in Hebrews 13:11 they compare the suffering and death of Jesus outside the city gate to the burning up of the body of the sacrificial animal, not forgetting that the burning of fatty parts or other bodily parts were also burnt on the alter to God depending on circumstance.

As we can see from John the Baptiste words, Jesus replaces those animal sacrifice and became a permanent sacrifice in their place, thus the sacrifice had to be done in a similar fashion as commanded by God to the Israelite's.

In the NT Hebrews 10:10 states "by this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time", therefore, according to scripture, it is clear that the body of Jesus relates to sanctifying sinful mankind along with his blood.

If you could answer the question directly I'd be thankful. If Jesus was raised in a body of flesh then what did he sacrifice if he took back the body he sacrificed was it just his blood?

djhwoodwerks said:

Acts 2:24 (ESV Strong's) 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

You can make the above statement, quote the above verse, and still claim that Jesus' "body" was not raised from the grave?

Does a persons spirit, or life force die or does it return to God? Isn't it the fleshly, human body that dies? If a life force can't die, how can it be, "loosed from the pangs of death"?

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You make the same mistake as others on this thread. Remember Jesus hasn't always been flesh, scripture makes it clear he "became flesh" (John 1:14), He "emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human" (Phil 2:7), Jesus was a spirit prior to his coming to Earth. People often mistaken the nature of Jesus as being always Human, thinking that if a passage say Jesus was raised that it must be referring to his human nature. Jesus was a spirit, that became flesh, that became a spirit again. The fact that God raised him up, as it states in Acts 2:24, is simply a statement saying that God brought him back to life, it sheds no light to what type of body God raised Jesus in.

Yes the life force returns to God, but again death is not a literal tangible place, so when scripture states death could not hold him its referring to the fact that Jesus was not deserving of death. Romans 6:23 states "the wages sin pays is death", Jesus was sinless, throughout history he was the only person to die that did not deserve the punishment of death, for this fact "death could not hold Jesus" as he did not belong in that state of non existence so God raised him.

djhwoodwerks said:

This is contradictory isn't it? We have to "work" to get this "gift" from God?

If we accept the sacrifice of Jesus, and obey His commands, "then" we get the "gift" of everlasting life.

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No, you're incorrect.

The gift of everlasting salvation is like entering into a free prize draw expect anyone can win. When you enter into a free prize draw they often have terms and conditions that you must abide to, if you deviate from the terms and condition then you do not get the free gift.

Likewise the gift God gives is free and anyone can gain it, no amount of works get you the prize. However there are terms and conditions, if you deviate from these terms and conditions you don't get the prize. Hebrews 10:10 states "And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him". The scripture just shown clearly states that Jesus gives salvation to those who obey. Jesus himself said to people "Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?", Jesus himself expected for his followers to obey his commands, he stated this time and time again, Jesus said "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations...teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. ” (Matthews 28:19,20).

Lastly Matthew 7:21 states regarding people who believe and have faith in Jesus “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will." As we can see, just because people believe in Jesus isn't enough to save them, they must obey Jesus, by obeying Jesus people are doing the will of the Father.

Even the nation of Israel who were Gods chosen people would only remain as his people and gain everlasting life if they obeyed him, there is not change from Gods way today.

(Exodus 19:5) "..Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me.."