McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
*sigh*
we will have to agree to disagree.
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Morality is not subjective
- Thread starter JRMcC
- Start date
we will have to agree to disagree.
JRMcC
Active Member
It doesn't come from a physical place though.
JRMcC
Active Member
In essence, virtue ethics focuses on character, or on people aspiring for excellence in some particular ideal, rather than on labeling behaviors as "right" or "wrong." Put another way, the focus is on what sort of person you want to be. For example, a college student would do well to uphold a virtue of studiousness because this virtue is important to being a successful student (and presumably, a student wants to be a successful one). There are cultural expectations for personal character that play into the dynamic, often informed by social roles. It'd be expected that a counselor, for instance, embody the virtue of selflessness, as a good counselor must listen to the problems of their client without their own ego getting in the way. In both of these examples, there's no declaration that it is "morally wrong" if a student is not studious, or a counselor is not selfless. It just means they are probably bad at what they do.
That makes perfect sense.
So the way we think of morality is I guess determined by our understanding of the world. Though the way we implement morality varies, I feel that we all work toward the same good. In a sense most of us work toward the same ideal of goodness. That's not really an argument, that's just me thinking out loud.
I don't remember exactly where I was going with it, but maybe I was trying to say that there are many different types of knowledge. A lot of people seem to think that it's only knowledge if you can measure it.
JRMcC
Active Member
In my scenario I said Abrahamic religions do not exist! Read it again if you care at all. Which I don't blame you if you don't.
It's not quite like gravity. It's not like the physical sciences.
What I'm saying is that when you look at a painting and think about what it means or conveys, that's subjective.
When you see murder and think about whether it's right or wrong that's not subjective. If you think murder is ok there's something wrong with you.
JRMcC
Active Member
That's a toughie. It can't be determined in the same way that physical facts can, with objective (or you should really be saying physical) measurements. Remember that science regarding the solar system is not universally accepted. That can't be a requirement for truth.
If one is a so-called physicalist then they will always agree with you and they wouldn't agree with me. I'm saying that there are objective truths that we can observe using our intuition, and that's a hard case to make. Especially to a Physicalist ( though I'm not saying you are one).
JRMcC
Active Member
Forget the bible scenario?
I think we both know and agree. This is obviously a hard case to make. I dunno, I think biological and social influences are suppressible. I might be brought up socially to believe in fictional Bible stories, but I if I truly realize that I only believed that then I will probably cast that belief aside. I'm sort of saying that if morality was just social then we would have a pretty easy time putting it aside. Think of other things that are just socially programmed.
The biological factors are obvious, but the biology argument leaves out a great deal of moral questions. I don't think biology can account for universal morality at all.
And again your last sentence I have to reject. If there is a moral truth (which we debating) then past or individual beliefs about morality to not affect that unchanging truth.
Cool stuff
I'm saying that if morality were subjective there would be no loft goal to strive for. Maybe we are hung up on words.
Actually my first sentence ^ there is really the main point of my whole argument.
If one's definition of objective always has to do with the physical, then what I'm saying can't be true. I guess I just have a different understanding of things.
As far as you last sentence... I don't think it was somehow laid out before creation. That would be one way that a human could understand it, but the reality of the universe is too much for humans to comprehend. I don't know how or why morality is objective. But I can say that given the circumstances it doesn't make sense (at least in my opinion) to call it subjective. Everyone behaves and talks like it's objective and then claims it's subjective; I just don't believe it. Doesn't mean I'm not learning a lot from this conversation though.
Satans_Serrated_Edge
Deicidal
If that were the case, I very much doubt we'd be having this conversation.
So that's your argument? Whoever doesn't agree with you, even though you seem to be incapable of explaining your rational, has something wrong with them?
Hubris.
JRMcC
Active Member
Ok you think killing children is only wrong if you believe it is. You're in the minority.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Actually, that is th truth of it.
Things are right or wrong because you think/declare them right or wrong.
It matters not one bit how many people agree or disagree with you.
Now if you can present a universally absolute moral...
Killing?
Nope.
Killing in self defense is not immoral.
Stealing?
Nope, it is not immoral to steal bread and water to survive.
the only "universally absolute" morals are the ones that are defined as immoral/illegal.
I.E. rape, murder.
And even then you get people who can't even grasp that concept.
I.E. "abortion is murder"
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
That doesn't matter. When it comes to things such as rotations and orbits, we have a number of mathematical techniques that prove, beyond any shadow of a doubt, of many things that are going on.
Objectivity is a requirement for truths that lie outside of subjective personal truths. It's why math is so important because it allows us to prove things without emotional judgements and subjectivity.
Satans_Serrated_Edge
Deicidal
So, an appeal to emotion and an ad populum fallacy?
Gee how can I argue with that °eyeroll°
I like how you added the qualifier 'children' after the fact. What, is murdering adults not absolutely wrong enough for you any more?
Evolution and natural selection evolved organisms with instincts like the survival instinct and the instinct to procreate. Some behaviors are objectively good for successful survival and reproduction, some are objectively bad. From there comes our notion of behaviors being objectively good/right/beneficial/moral or bad/wrong/detrimental/immoral. The objectively right behavior is the behavior that is most beneficial and/or least detrimental to survival and successful reproduction. People have subjective opinions about what the objectively right behavior is.
Satans_Serrated_Edge
Deicidal
The qualifier 'for successful survival and reproduction ' is the subject for which behaviour can be measured as good or bad. What you have here is a measure of behaviour subjective to human survival.For them to be objective these behaviours would have to be 'good' or 'bad' regardless of any qualifiers.
Yes, this is probably where and why many draw their line in the sand, while yet others do not. I would say more define 'the good' against their God's will, and/or what is written in their holy texts.
Religions like Christianity is just a way of providing simple people with simple moral rules while wrapping them in a context that gives the believers more incentive to follow the rules.
Right, one does Not need the Bible, or another ancient book, to tell you stealing and killing is wrong.
As Romans 2:14-15 mentions people of the nations do what is right ( Not to steal, murder, etc. ) because of: Conscience.
Unless damaged, people come equipped with a built-in conscience that guides.
If a conscience is ignored, then it can become hardened or calloused unfeeling like flesh branded with a hot branding iron.
Right, many find nothing wrong with fornication (porneia) because their conscience does Not bother them.
Just because one's conscience does Not bother them does Not mean fornication and adultery are acceptable according to the teachings of Christ.
Yes, ' generally ' tells us between right and wrong, but one's conscience can be ignored to the point that it finally becomes unfeeling and calloused like flesh branded with a hot branding iron - 1 Timothy 4:2
Because of free-will choices we are Not forced to do the right thing.( listen to conscience )
For that reason, one's conscience can either ' accuse ' us or ' excuse ' us.
Jesus used his built-in ability to not only understand logic but to use logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teachings.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
But their conscious would bother them were they to kill someone. So, to those who follow the Bible such acts are unacceptable, but clearly many people do not have anything wrong with it, and yet they still have a conscious. So there is nothing inert that defines what morality is. The best we can say is we are "programmed" to express it, much like how we are "programmed" to seek social relations. But different cultures do express what we call morality differently, and there is normal some variation among the individual members of that culture.
Within Christianity, but it does display the subjectivity of morality. And when we look out into nature, it's very doubtful we are the only animals with a conscious, as many group/social display a range of social norms, and even various forms for doing things that are against group norms. Bonobo culture, for example, is known for making male members who step out of line and start to act aggressive go away from the group and throw their tantrums elsewhere. They have huge orgies before eating to put everyone in a good mood and reduce the chance of conflict happening. Chimpanzees, they are the only other animal asides from humans known for ganging up on their own and murdering in cold blood. Elephants though seem as if they may be the most benevolent animal living today. And because even other animals have something that seems to fit the description of what we call morality, we cannot say they experience anything such as religion that we do, because even though we can define pro-social behaviors in humans and other animals, we can't consistently define religion among ourselves.
Yes, animals are conscious creation, but do Not have the spiritual capability as humans do in being religious - James 1:27
Animals for the most part go by instinct ( some eat their young ), whereas humans go by conscience.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
I'm pretty sure even many animals have a conscious. I've seen many dogs display shame and remorse, meaning they know they did something wrong. A wolf below the alpha displays submissiveness when upsetting the alpha. There are other animals that know and recognize when they have done something that is considered wrong within their group. But, I this seems to be only social animals. I would say non-social animals tend to behave in an amoral way. Snakes, for example, doesn't seem to display any real social or anti social behavior, it's really just if it can eat something or not, and if it can in it goes.