Legal arguments against homosexual marriage

Shadow Wolf · Nov 6, 2015

Norman said:
the public square must accommodate and religious freedom must protect such views

You are still free to do so. However, others should be, and now are, free from your religious standards if they do not adhere to them. You can preach marriage being between a man and woman until you turn blue in the face, you can and it's your right to do so. However, the public square cannot cater to just the religious views of some, as these views do not equally apply to all, and are only immoral to those who believe it is.

Norman · Nov 6, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
You are still free to do so. However, others should be, and now are, free from your religious standards if they do not adhere to them. You can preach marriage being between a man and woman until you turn blue in the face, you can and it's your right to do so. However, the public square cannot cater to just the religious views of some, as these views do not equally apply to all, and are only immoral to those who believe it is.

Norman: Hi Shadow Wolf, I understand what you are saying and I agree, well said. The public square should accommodate everyone and must accommodate everyone. May I share further on this.
Let’s look at our Universities of higher education and the family. I recognized the importance of technology and knowledge early on in my studies. I always tried to hold on to my moral compass that my parents taught me. Knowledge has always been important to me, and today we are at the threshold of so many new and exciting scientific and technological advancements, Knowledge empowers everyone. For example, how wondrous the computer is, however, there is not an app that will replace basic morality.

I am equally concerned that the foundations which have historically supported faith, accountability to God, and the religious impulse are increasingly being marginalized in a secular world and even banished from the public square. Many American universities were founded as religious institutions, explicitly designed to cultivate their students’ spiritual and moral natures,” But over the course of the 20th century they became officially or effectively secular. I believe many institutions have lost their way. They have abandoned the basic moral high ground that gives meaning to this life and has guided civilizations for centuries.

The entire burden for training and teaching young adults is not the responsibility of academia, particularly in areas of moral values, faith and accountability to God. In looking at society at large, the teaching and training of the younger generation — the rising generation — is a primary responsibility of the family. Parents need to encourage their children to be a voice and a moral compass or the world will. I put all five of my kids through college and I could only hope that they went to school anchored with what myself and my wife taught them. What is your thoughts on this.

Jainarayan · Nov 6, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Your suggesting that I get over the temporary victory of one battle won In a war that has just started? No, I think not.

You can believe whatever you want, even that it's a war, which it is far from. "War" is more than a little melodramatic.

McBell · Nov 7, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Hi Shadow Wolf, I understand what you are saying and I agree, well said. The public square should accommodate everyone and must accommodate everyone. May I share further on this.
Let’s look at our Universities of higher education and the family. I recognized the importance of technology and knowledge early on in my studies. I always tried to hold on to my moral compass that my parents taught me. Knowledge has always been important to me, and today we are at the threshold of so many new and exciting scientific and technological advancements, Knowledge empowers everyone. For example, how wondrous the computer is, however, there is not an app that will replace basic morality.

I am equally concerned that the foundations which have historically supported faith, accountability to God, and the religious impulse are increasingly being marginalized in a secular world and even banished from the public square. Many American universities were founded as religious institutions, explicitly designed to cultivate their students’ spiritual and moral natures,” But over the course of the 20th century they became officially or effectively secular. I believe many institutions have lost their way. They have abandoned the basic moral high ground that gives meaning to this life and has guided civilizations for centuries.

The entire burden for training and teaching young adults is not the responsibility of academia, particularly in areas of moral values, faith and accountability to God. In looking at society at large, the teaching and training of the younger generation — the rising generation — is a primary responsibility of the family. Parents need to encourage their children to be a voice and a moral compass or the world will. I put all five of my kids through college and I could only hope that they went to school anchored with what myself and my wife taught them. What is your thoughts on this.

Then all you need do is have the universities stop taking government monies.
Then they are not as bound by the rules and can discriminate almost to their hearts content.

McBell · Nov 7, 2015

Thorbjorn said:
You can believe whatever you want, even that it's a war, which it is far from. "War" is more than a little melodramatic.

It is as if he thinks he gets extra brownie points for every person he can force to comply with his idea of morality

Shadow Wolf · Nov 7, 2015

Norman said:
I am equally concerned that the foundations which have historically supported faith, accountability to God, and the religious impulse are increasingly being marginalized in a secular world and even banished from the public square.

Faith, accountability to god, and this religious impulse are only important to those who find it important. Because they do not universally and equally apply to all, the state and public spheres should not be concerned with making it a priority to promote (and the state should not promote religion anyways).

Norman said:
What is your thoughts on this.

I agree it is up to the family to teach some things to their children, but religious laws have no business or valid reasons for being state law.

Norman · Nov 11, 2015

Mestemia said:
It is as if he thinks he gets extra brownie points for every person he can force to comply with his idea of morality

Norman: Tell me Mestemia, where did morality come from? Did you create it? Did my Church create morality? And here is more food for thought.
When historians write about history will they write that in 2004 Arkansans and Georgians and Kentuckians and Michganians and North Dakatons codified man/woman marriage into their state law?” Will all these efforts by these citizens to codify man/woman marriage into law will be remembered? By the year 2012, over 50 million had stepped into a voting booth and did all they could to codify marriage as the law of their land. Historians won’t write about that.

Will they write that in 2013 a judge struck down the law passed by citizens in Utah? Will they write that a handful of federal judges nullified the laws that the people had put into place? Will they write about how 5 judges struck down the laws put into place by the people? Instead, historians will use phrases such as “a shift in the American attitude”, a ‘tidal wave.” God is a homosexual.” “The other side wants those of us who believe in man/woman marriage to think we lost. That will all be a delusion. It will all be lies.

Only two nations in the world have forced same-sex marriage upon their people–the United States and Brazil. They want you to forget that. They want you to forget the millions of Frenchmen who stormed the streets of Paris protesting same-sex marriage.

“We must remember it all and we must tell it all. We must repeat it. You can’t do anything about the future unless you understand the past. Americans tried to preserve man/woman marriage and five un-elected judges stopped us.

We must never stop telling this story because it is important for the future. In the days ahead mothers will have to proclaim the importance of motherhood and fathers and fatherhood. We have to say that children need mothers and fathers. This has to be taught. It is an important truth that can’t be taken for granted. I quote the great Prophet Jeremiah who dealt with the lies and corruption of the said historians in his day.

Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Maggie Gallagher, one of the foremost experts on marriage in the nation says, “We don’t talk enough about the power of an average, good-enough marriage. It doesn’t have to be perfect to be powerful.” Everybody needs a little help on the way to that ideal.

Shadow Wolf · Nov 11, 2015

Norman said:
When historians write about history will they write that in 2004 Arkansans and Georgians and Kentuckians and Michganians and North Dakatons codified man/woman marriage into their state law?” Will all these efforts by these citizens to codify man/woman marriage into law will be remembered? By the year 2012, over 50 million had stepped into a voting booth and did all they could to codify marriage as the law of their land. Historians won’t write about that.

They're going to wonder why we were such haters as to refuse a basic right to another human. They are going to wonder how we made such a big deal out of it, how we frowned upon, and we even sometimes violently lashed out against them. And, hopefully, they will write of this era, of the past 100 years, and mark it as a dawning of human equality.

McBell · Nov 11, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Tell me Mestemia, where did morality come from? Did you create it? Did my Church create morality? And here is more food for thought.
When historians write about history will they write that in 2004 Arkansans and Georgians and Kentuckians and Michganians and North Dakatons codified man/woman marriage into their state law?” Will all these efforts by these citizens to codify man/woman marriage into law will be remembered? By the year 2012, over 50 million had stepped into a voting booth and did all they could to codify marriage as the law of their land. Historians won’t write about that.

Will they write that in 2013 a judge struck down the law passed by citizens in Utah? Will they write that a handful of federal judges nullified the laws that the people had put into place? Will they write about how 5 judges struck down the laws put into place by the people? Instead, historians will use phrases such as “a shift in the American attitude”, a ‘tidal wave.” God is a homosexual.” “The other side wants those of us who believe in man/woman marriage to think we lost. That will all be a delusion. It will all be lies.

Only two nations in the world have forced same-sex marriage upon their people–the United States and Brazil. They want you to forget that. They want you to forget the millions of Frenchmen who stormed the streets of Paris protesting same-sex marriage.

“We must remember it all and we must tell it all. We must repeat it. You can’t do anything about the future unless you understand the past. Americans tried to preserve man/woman marriage and five un-elected judges stopped us.

We must never stop telling this story because it is important for the future. In the days ahead mothers will have to proclaim the importance of motherhood and fathers and fatherhood. We have to say that children need mothers and fathers. This has to be taught. It is an important truth that can’t be taken for granted. I quote the great Prophet Jeremiah who dealt with the lies and corruption of the said historians in his day.

Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Maggie Gallagher, one of the foremost experts on marriage in the nation says, “We don’t talk enough about the power of an average, good-enough marriage. It doesn’t have to be perfect to be powerful.” Everybody needs a little help on the way to that ideal.

I suspect they will write about how, like so many other "three wolves and sheep voting" laws, there was no legitimate legal reason to ban same sex marriage so they made the only correct legal decision that could be made DESPITE the whining of the wolves.

Same sex marriage was not forced upon anyone in the USA.
That you think it was reveals much about your mind set.

Why is it, if your god is so concerned with marriage, has he not shown up and voiced his opinion on the matter?
And no, claiming he voices his opinion through his followers is plain outright dishonest bull ****.

Rick O'Shez · Nov 12, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
They're going to wonder why we were such haters as to refuse a basic right to another human. They are going to wonder how we made such a big deal out of it, how we frowned upon, and we even sometimes violently lashed out against them. And, hopefully, they will write of this era, of the past 100 years, and mark it as a dawning of human equality.

I hope that eventually discrimination based on sexual orientation will become as unacceptable as discrimination based on race and gender.

Norman · Nov 26, 2015

Mestemia said:
It is as if he thinks he gets extra brownie points for every person he can force to comply with his idea of morality

Norman: Mestemia, what is your definition of morals? Morality? When you were a child I am sure your parents taught you morals, what were those morals?

Draka · Nov 26, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Tell me Mestemia, where did morality come from? Did you create it? Did my Church create morality? And here is more food for thought.
When historians write about history will they write that in 2004 Arkansans and Georgians and Kentuckians and Michganians and North Dakatons codified man/woman marriage into their state law?” Will all these efforts by these citizens to codify man/woman marriage into law will be remembered? By the year 2012, over 50 million had stepped into a voting booth and did all they could to codify marriage as the law of their land. Historians won’t write about that.

Will they write that in 2013 a judge struck down the law passed by citizens in Utah? Will they write that a handful of federal judges nullified the laws that the people had put into place? Will they write about how 5 judges struck down the laws put into place by the people? Instead, historians will use phrases such as “a shift in the American attitude”, a ‘tidal wave.” God is a homosexual.” “The other side wants those of us who believe in man/woman marriage to think we lost. That will all be a delusion. It will all be lies.

Only two nations in the world have forced same-sex marriage upon their people–the United States and Brazil. They want you to forget that. They want you to forget the millions of Frenchmen who stormed the streets of Paris protesting same-sex marriage.

“We must remember it all and we must tell it all. We must repeat it. You can’t do anything about the future unless you understand the past. Americans tried to preserve man/woman marriage and five un-elected judges stopped us.

We must never stop telling this story because it is important for the future. In the days ahead mothers will have to proclaim the importance of motherhood and fathers and fatherhood. We have to say that children need mothers and fathers. This has to be taught. It is an important truth that can’t be taken for granted. I quote the great Prophet Jeremiah who dealt with the lies and corruption of the said historians in his day.

Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Maggie Gallagher, one of the foremost experts on marriage in the nation says, “We don’t talk enough about the power of an average, good-enough marriage. It doesn’t have to be perfect to be powerful.” Everybody needs a little help on the way to that ideal.

I think if anything will be remembered about all of that it is that Americans were such hateful bigoted people that they had to be drug, kicking and screaming, into civility. That we were so drenched in ignorance and idiocy that we had to be made to be reasonable and fair. At least our laws. Still working on people and it apparently will take quite some time for many still out there.

Town Heretic · Nov 26, 2015

Draka said:
I think if anything will be remembered about all of that it is that Americans were such hateful bigoted people that they had to be drug, kicking and screaming, into civility.

I'd say the danger in that summation is that many people who objected to homosexuals being allowed to marry weren't doing so from a position of ignorance or hostility. They simply believed and believe that homosexuality is a sin and that the law shouldn't promote sin.

Their problem was mostly inconsistency. The way I put it to a few of them was, if your objection is really about God and your understanding of His will on the point, if marriage is sacred and at its root a joining by and before God, then where was your protest when atheists married?

That we were so drenched in ignorance and idiocy that we had to be made to be reasonable and fair. At least our laws. Still working on people and it apparently will take quite some time for many still out there.

My position is simple, everyone is entitled to exercise their right and conscience up to the point where it interferes with the next fellow's. Let God sort out the rest in His own good time.

Norman · Nov 26, 2015

Draka said:
I think if anything will be remembered about all of that it is that Americans were such hateful bigoted people that they had to be drug, kicking and screaming, into civility. That we were so drenched in ignorance and idiocy that we had to be made to be reasonable and fair. At least our laws. Still working on people and it apparently will take quite some time for many still out there.

Norman: Hi Draka, could be, could be.

SomeRandom · Nov 27, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Tell me Mestemia, where did morality come from? Did you create it? Did my Church create morality? And here is more food for thought.
When historians write about history will they write that in 2004 Arkansans and Georgians and Kentuckians and Michganians and North Dakatons codified man/woman marriage into their state law?” Will all these efforts by these citizens to codify man/woman marriage into law will be remembered? By the year 2012, over 50 million had stepped into a voting booth and did all they could to codify marriage as the law of their land. Historians won’t write about that.

Will they write that in 2013 a judge struck down the law passed by citizens in Utah? Will they write that a handful of federal judges nullified the laws that the people had put into place? Will they write about how 5 judges struck down the laws put into place by the people? Instead, historians will use phrases such as “a shift in the American attitude”, a ‘tidal wave.” God is a homosexual.” “The other side wants those of us who believe in man/woman marriage to think we lost. That will all be a delusion. It will all be lies.

Only two nations in the world have forced same-sex marriage upon their people–the United States and Brazil. They want you to forget that. They want you to forget the millions of Frenchmen who stormed the streets of Paris protesting same-sex marriage.

“We must remember it all and we must tell it all. We must repeat it. You can’t do anything about the future unless you understand the past. Americans tried to preserve man/woman marriage and five un-elected judges stopped us.

We must never stop telling this story because it is important for the future. In the days ahead mothers will have to proclaim the importance of motherhood and fathers and fatherhood. We have to say that children need mothers and fathers. This has to be taught. It is an important truth that can’t be taken for granted. I quote the great Prophet Jeremiah who dealt with the lies and corruption of the said historians in his day.

Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Maggie Gallagher, one of the foremost experts on marriage in the nation says, “We don’t talk enough about the power of an average, good-enough marriage. It doesn’t have to be perfect to be powerful.” Everybody needs a little help on the way to that ideal.

In the future they will regard opposition to SSM the same way we regard opposition to interracial marriages today.

McBell · Nov 28, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Mestemia, what is your definition of morals? Morality? When you were a child I am sure your parents taught you morals, what were those morals?

What is morality in any given time or place? It is what the majority then and there happen to like, and immorality is what they dislike.
~Alfred North Whitehead, Dialogues, 30 August 1941

Shadow Wolf · Nov 28, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Mestemia, what is your definition of morals? Morality? When you were a child I am sure your parents taught you morals, what were those morals?

Things my parents taught me I had to learn, sometimes the hard and embarrassing way, are not actually ok. My mom, she taught me how to lie, play head games, pry information from people, cover up mistakes, and even forge signatures. Both taught me racial slurs, racist thoughts, and how to see differences as things that are wrong.
The question wasn't directed at me, but the question of "definition of morals" is a good one, and in regards to parents, if we asked everyone here and they all responded, you'd probably see a very great range of morals that includes many things you don't think is moral.

Norman · Nov 28, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
Things my parents taught me I had to learn, sometimes the hard and embarrassing way, are not actually ok. My mom, she taught me how to lie, play head games, pry information from people, cover up mistakes, and even forge signatures. Both taught me racial slurs, racist thoughts, and how to see differences as things that are wrong.
The question wasn't directed at me, but the question of "definition of morals" is a good one, and in regards to parents, if we asked everyone here and they all responded, you'd probably see a very great range of morals that includes many things you don't think is moral.

Norman: Hi Shadow Wolf, I am so sorry for what you went through growing up. I consider myself blessed, my Mother taught me not to ever hit a woman. My Father was an alcoholic but he taught me to never fight with my brothers and how important family is. My Mother taught me not to lie, steal, swear and to always be kind to other people. I certainly did not have a perfect family, however, I tried to find the good and remember what my Mother and Father taught me. My Father was not the best Father, however, I still remember the good times instead of all the bad times that I had with my family. My Father taught me to swear, drink and smoke cigarettes. I eventually followed my Mother's precepts instead of my Father's. Yes, morals are important, it really is who we are and what we think and how we feel. It is hard when you don't have that foundation and the hierarchy of needs that is so important to a child. Thank you for sharing your story, it meant a lot to me and helped me remember that there are bad morals taught as good morals are taught, it really is the fabric of society and how we all treat each other.

Norman · Nov 28, 2015

Mestemia said:
What is morality in any given time or place? It is what the majority then and there happen to like, and immorality is what they dislike.
~Alfred North Whitehead, Dialogues, 30 August 1941

Norman: Hi Mestemia, good quote, however, I would like to hear from you and your thoughts on morals? What did your parents teach you?

McBell · Nov 28, 2015

Norman said:
Norman: Hi Mestemia, good quote, however, I would like to hear from you and your thoughts on morals? What did your parents teach you?

Morals are subjective.
In fact, there is not a single objective moral.

What my parents taught me is completely irrelevant.
Why?
Because I have my own set of morals which conflict with much of what I was taught.
So what my parents taught me has little bearing on my morals.

Legal arguments against homosexual marriage

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