Cultural Appropriation

Many of you will note that cultural appropriation has become kind of a "thing" these days, and quite frankly, the sentiments make me want to vomit. What's getting on my nerves is the idea that it's inappropriate and offensive, and that we need to establish restrictive norms on who can and cannot partake in certain cultural behaviors. Talk about a divisive attitude...what in the world ever happened to the melting pot? This is NOT progressive thinking. Hopefully it'll just fizzle out and people will forget it ever happened.

If you are unfamiliar with the buzzword, read this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...5c0c153e4b0b23e3ce3f27b?kvcommref=mostpopular

Quite frankly, I don't buy it. It's something you have to teach people to get upset about. The reality is that culture is a fluid thing, and cultures cannot, will not, and will never coexist as mutually exclusive entities. They will inevitably intermingle, and that's a GOOD thing. We are not beholden to the restraints of other people's culture, and we don't need a certain skin color or history either. Culture is a give and take thing. Beyond that, nobody but nobody owns cultural artifacts. Seriously, what petty insecurity.

In any case, what's your opinion?

I feel it's ridiculous. I honestly feel that it's divisive, that people that hold such views seem to want everyone to be divided into groups and not share culture. Shouldn't we learn from each other, inspire each other and appreciate each other?

To me it seems more racist to think we should all keep our own culture to ourselves, be divided and not intermingle than to "borrow" or gods forbid - love a different culture!

There was an event in the US recently (ish) about a museum and Japanese exposition. The museum decided to have kimonos and people could wear them for fun. There was an outrage about it, how it's cultural appropriation.

Someone I subscribe to on YouTube lives in Japan, has a Japanese husband and many friends there, she asked them if they would be offended. They were flabbergasted. They didn't even understand what there was to be offended about. They're happy when people take interest in their culture and wear their kimono. They even asked a kimono maker (passed down through many generations) and they were happy about it.

To me, that seems a much healthier outlook. Like you said, it's a GOOD thing. That new SJW trend makes me sick too.

My opinion is that melting pots are rare in this world, and shouldn't be forced on cultures that don't want to be (provided they're not committing inhumane acts to stifle one from arising naturally). The only real melting pot I'm aware of is Ireland, though I'm sure there are others. The US certainly isn't, though, as I'd describe it as more of a "salad bowl". Different cultures and subcultures here pretty much keep to themselves, at least from what I've seen, and we're HIGHLY differentiated.

Cultural appropriation is hardly new, but is rather a term applied to a practice that's very offensive to cultural identities. Modern US culture teaches a "people can do whatever they want so long as they're not hurting anyone directly" approach to such things, which is great in theory, particularly when applied to law.

However, when a group of wholly European-descended Americans start gathering in the woods, start claiming the name of a still-existent First Nations Tribe, paint their bodies in some fashion that resembles their image of how Native Americans did it, and start doing rituals to affirm this identity, that's not being "progressive". It's being the exact opposite, in fact: imperialistic. That's the primary defining factor for cultural appropriation.

Now, there is a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange. That's the fluidity that you're talking about, and will happen no matter what. But just as culture is fluid, the line that separates appropriation and exchange is fluid, and I believe it good to be respectful of which one other cultures say a particular practice is.

...To be clear, no, I didn't read the Huffington Post link. I'm not sure I'd trust that source as being a reliable report on appropriation.

Riverwolf said:

Now, there is a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange. That's the fluidity that you're talking about, and will happen no matter what. But just as culture is fluid, the line that separates appropriation and exchange is fluid, and I believe it good to be respectful of which one other cultures say a particular practice is.

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But a lot of people call them the same thing, and scream cultural appropriation at the first sliver of chance they get. It's ridiculously annoying.

I agree some things are disrespectful, but this trend has gone way too far. Not sure how to explain my sentiment... There are REAL issues of racism and cultural appropriation, but these people take it so far that real issues aren't even on the radar any more, if that makes sense. It feels like it's become ridiculous and people won't even want to pay attention to real issues any more because they'll dismiss it as some other SJW whining.

I really had issues explaining this, hope it makes sense.

For me what gets on my nerves about cultural appropriation is not the mixing of culture (god knows I'm knee deep guilty in mixing Hinduism with some other stuff) but rather when people bastardize another culture and represent it as that culture. I at least make clear that what I'm doing isn't representative of a culture but rather largely influenced by a subset of a set of practices/sects.

But then you get *some* hippies and stuff acting like their views, ect everything *is* Hinduism or whatever with no real understanding or appreciation of the actual thing.

illykitty said:

But a lot of people call them the same thing, and scream cultural appropriation at the first sliver of chance they get. It's ridiculously annoying.

I agree some things are disrespectful, but this trend has gone way too far. Not sure how to explain my sentiment... There are REAL issues of racism and cultural appropriation, but these people take it so far that real issues aren't even on the radar any more, if that makes sense. It feels like it's become ridiculous and people won't even want to pay attention to real issues any more because they'll dismiss it as some other SJW whining.

I really had issues explaining this, hope it makes sense.

Click to expand...

You're making perfect sense. I, personally, have all kinds of problems with the very term "SJW", but for reasons that aren't terribly relevant here.

I think you're onto the same sort of thing that appropriation is about: devaluation.

This topic was addressed, actually, in one of the Avatar comics (as in, Last Airbender). To speak in a non-spoilery way, a subplot involves a group of kids doing things that were devaluing the sorts of efforts a long-lost culture did, which made this culture's last surviving representative offended. They were doing things that were supposed to signify years of specified training, but only after a few months of what amounted to role play.


This illustrates appropriation. The entire franchise, however, entirely comprises of people of color (each of the four nations has an analogue to a real-world culture), and is in the anime style, despite being a predominantly American production. I wouldn't count that as appropriation, and to my knowledge, the cultures being analogously represented(all, roughly, Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, and Inuit) aren't offended. But to try calling it appropriative could easily devalue the real appropriation that these cultures might have to deal with, analogous to this subplot. To use a common activist term, it erases the real appropriation.

One thing that I think has been inflating the amount of people who yell about things being "offensive" is the idea that we're supposed to take "empathic offense". That is, if a certain group finds something offensive, then I'm supposed to find it equally offensive, and reject it just as they have. I don't think this is explicitly taught in our culture, but in hindsight, I think we've been guided in this direction to a degree. I, personally, think that's wrong.

Also, social media has given a lot of young people a new platform to voice their passionate opinions as they seek validation and an identity of their own, where in the past, no such thing existed. I once saw on Twitter someone say something to this effect: we need to be more empathetic to young activists. It's better that they be shouty, than silent.

TurkeyOnRye said:

Many of you will note that cultural appropriation has become kind of a "thing" these days, and quite frankly, the sentiments make me want to vomit. What's getting on my nerves is the idea that it's inappropriate and offensive, and that we need to establish restrictive norms on who can and cannot partake in certain cultural behaviors. Talk about a divisive attitude...what in the world ever happened to the melting pot? This is NOT progressive thinking. Hopefully it'll just fizzle out and people will forget it ever happened.

If you are unfamiliar with the buzzword, read this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...5c0c153e4b0b23e3ce3f27b?kvcommref=mostpopular

Quite frankly, I don't buy it. It's something you have to teach people to get upset about. The reality is that culture is a fluid thing, and cultures cannot, will not, and will never coexist as mutually exclusive entities. They will inevitably intermingle, and that's a GOOD thing. We are not beholden to the restraints of other people's culture, and we don't need a certain skin color or history either. Culture is a give and take thing. Beyond that, nobody but nobody owns cultural artifacts. Seriously, what petty insecurity.

In any case, what's your opinion?

Click to expand...

Totally agree.

Riverwolf said:

This illustrates appropriation. The entire franchise, however, entirely comprises of people of color (each of the four nations has an analogue to a real-world culture), and is in the anime style, despite being a predominantly American production. I wouldn't count that as appropriation, and to my knowledge, the cultures being analogously represented(all, roughly, Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, and Inuit) aren't offended. But to try calling it appropriative could easily devalue the real appropriation that these cultures might have to deal with, analogous to this subplot. To use a common activist term, it erases the real appropriation.

Click to expand...

For the sake of the arguement, let's assume someone did find Avatar offensive and full of appropriation, then what?
Is an American company using Anime an example of appropriation?

Appropriation proper is IMO a good thing, but in practice it is far more frequently a propaganda tool distracting from a loss of actual content.

Puts one in the mind of wondering how often people even have a functional grasp of their own "native" culture.

For that matter, puts one in the mind of whether there is even a true meaning to the word "native".

TurkeyOnRye said:

Many of you will note that cultural appropriation has become kind of a "thing" these days, and quite frankly, the sentiments make me want to vomit. What's getting on my nerves is the idea that it's inappropriate and offensive, and that we need to establish restrictive norms on who can and cannot partake in certain cultural behaviors. Talk about a divisive attitude...what in the world ever happened to the melting pot? This is NOT progressive thinking. Hopefully it'll just fizzle out and people will forget it ever happened.

If you are unfamiliar with the buzzword, read this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...5c0c153e4b0b23e3ce3f27b?kvcommref=mostpopular

Quite frankly, I don't buy it. It's something you have to teach people to get upset about. The reality is that culture is a fluid thing, and cultures cannot, will not, and will never coexist as mutually exclusive entities. They will inevitably intermingle, and that's a GOOD thing. We are not beholden to the restraints of other people's culture, and we don't need a certain skin color or history either. Culture is a give and take thing. Beyond that, nobody but nobody owns cultural artifacts. Seriously, what petty insecurity.

In any case, what's your opinion?

Click to expand...

In the spirit of another thread.....
Anyone who complains of "cultural appropriation" should be subject to an extra 10% income tax every time they use the term.

illykitty said:

There was an event in the US recently (ish) about a museum and Japanese exposition. The museum decided to have kimonos and people could wear them for fun. There was an outrage about it, how it's cultural appropriation.

Someone I subscribe to on YouTube lives in Japan, has a Japanese husband and many friends there, she asked them if they would be offended. They were flabbergasted. They didn't even understand what there was to be offended about. They're happy when people take interest in their culture and wear their kimono. They even asked a kimono maker (passed down through many generations) and they were happy about it.

Click to expand...

illykitty said:

That new SJW trend makes me sick too.

Click to expand...

Pretty much this.




Oh and trousers are a Germanic thing. Please don't appropriate Germanic culture and wear togas if you aren't a Germanic.

TurkeyOnRye said:

Many of you will note that cultural appropriation has become kind of a "thing" these days, and quite frankly, the sentiments make me want to vomit. What's getting on my nerves is the idea that it's inappropriate and offensive, and that we need to establish restrictive norms on who can and cannot partake in certain cultural behaviors. Talk about a divisive attitude...what in the world ever happened to the melting pot? This is NOT progressive thinking. Hopefully it'll just fizzle out and people will forget it ever happened.

If you are unfamiliar with the buzzword, read this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...5c0c153e4b0b23e3ce3f27b?kvcommref=mostpopular

Quite frankly, I don't buy it. It's something you have to teach people to get upset about. The reality is that culture is a fluid thing, and cultures cannot, will not, and will never coexist as mutually exclusive entities. They will inevitably intermingle, and that's a GOOD thing. We are not beholden to the restraints of other people's culture, and we don't need a certain skin color or history either. Culture is a give and take thing. Beyond that, nobody but nobody owns cultural artifacts. Seriously, what petty insecurity.

In any case, what's your opinion?

Click to expand...

This is one I'm mulling over and haven't really taken a firm position on. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect that, in a global society, no cultural idiosyncrasies will escape and be adopted by another culture. But I think the adoptive culture should be aware that they can use that idiosyncrasy in an offensive manner, and that the offended party(ies) should be allowed to make their case.

Cultural appropriation is great!
Consider......
- I'm not even a Scot. No doubt whatever Scottish blood I had was already lost in my many injuries.
- I'm not Hawaiian, but I wear their shirts.
- The Hawaiian shirt was itself cultural appropriation. The originals in the 1930s were made from Japanese kimono fabric.

I figure that God didn't want us appropriate'n other people's cultures,
he wouldn't have given them to us. It's pre-ordained!

Revoltingest said:

Cultural appropriation is great!
Consider......
- I'm not even a Scot. No doubt whatever Scottish blood I had was already lost in my many injuries.
- I'm not Hawaiian, but I wear their shirts.
- The Hawaiian shirt was itself cultural appropriation. The originals in the 1930s were made from Japanese kimono fabric.

I figure that God didn't want us appropriate'n other people's cultures,
he wouldn't have given them to us. It's pre-ordained!

Click to expand...

I'm half Scottish on my father's side. I hereby, in the name of all Scottish people, reascend half your permission to wear a kilt.

TurkeyOnRye said:

Many of you will note that cultural appropriation has become kind of a "thing" these days, and quite frankly, the sentiments make me want to vomit.

Click to expand...

As does your response.

Marisa said:

I'm half Scottish on my father's side. I hereby, in the name of all Scottish people, reascend half your permission to wear a kilt.

Click to expand...

"Reascend"?
You're ascending again?

Revoltingest said:

"Reascend"?
You're ascending again?

Click to expand...

I seriously doubt ascension is a conundrum I'll ever be forced to deal with. Descension is entirely possible.

Jayhawker Soule said:

As does your response.

Click to expand...

What useless contribution to this thread.

Riverwolf said:

My opinion is that melting pots are rare in this world, and shouldn't be forced on cultures that don't want to be (provided they're not committing inhumane acts to stifle one from arising naturally). The only real melting pot I'm aware of is Ireland, though I'm sure there are others. The US certainly isn't, though, as I'd describe it as more of a "salad bowl". Different cultures and subcultures here pretty much keep to themselves, at least from what I've seen, and we're HIGHLY differentiated.

Cultural appropriation is hardly new, but is rather a term applied to a practice that's very offensive to cultural identities. Modern US culture teaches a "people can do whatever they want so long as they're not hurting anyone directly" approach to such things, which is great in theory, particularly when applied to law.

However, when a group of wholly European-descended Americans start gathering in the woods, start claiming the name of a still-existent First Nations Tribe, paint their bodies in some fashion that resembles their image of how Native Americans did it, and start doing rituals to affirm this identity, that's not being "progressive". It's being the exact opposite, in fact: imperialistic. That's the primary defining factor for cultural appropriation.

Now, there is a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange. That's the fluidity that you're talking about, and will happen no matter what. But just as culture is fluid, the line that separates appropriation and exchange is fluid, and I believe it good to be respectful of which one other cultures say a particular practice is.

...To be clear, no, I didn't read the Huffington Post link. I'm not sure I'd trust that source as being a reliable report on appropriation.

Click to expand...

This is perfect.

Riverwolf said:

However, when a group of wholly European-descended Americans start gathering in the woods, start claiming the name of a still-existent First Nations Tribe, paint their bodies in some fashion that resembles their image of how Native Americans did it, and start doing rituals to affirm this identity, that's not being "progressive". It's being the exact opposite, in fact: imperialistic..

Click to expand...

Imperialistic? No.
By doing this, no one is preventing the natives from doing as they please.
I see nothing wrong......it's creepy, but not wrong.
Let people choose whatever identity calls to them.