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Why do Hindus eat chicken/ fish but not other meat?

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Several hundred generations have survived and more importantly derived brilliant intellectual insights on a wide variety of sciences living on a purely vegetarian diet.
True. This is also true of people with meat in their diet. Correlation is wonderful, but I don't know if I'd call it causation without a bit more information.

Medical research of our times change their tune every other year.

I wouldn't go that far. As more and more information becomes available the "research" updates itself. There is not always agreement in the Sciences, but it's ability to correct itself is it's strongest feature.

Ayurveda, the time tested holistic medical science, provides very specific details about the influence of various food on the physiology and psychology of a human being. But it is difficult to explain the same in common english medical parlance, because a- am not a medical practitioner, and b- several saṁskṛta terms have no equivalents in english. But Ayurveda is a recognized medical system in India. My earlier post was primarily from the śāstra (~scriptures) perspective, which is closely reflected in the Vaidika medical science viz., Ayurveda.

Alas, the great communication divide. :(

Food not only affects our physiology but also significantly impacts our mind. It is not the same as brain which is a mere conduit for the mind to interact and express in the physical domain.

So you're saying that food affects the metaphysical aspects of us? How? Food is not abstract, the mind can be considered to be though. So how can the physical affect the non physical? I don't understand.

But its quite impossible to accurately translate terms like sattva, rajas, and tamas.

Fair enough. I do wish I was better at my mother tongue. :(
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The risk of processed pork products has been well documented.

I have stressed that non processed meat is better than processed meat, which has harmful side affects. So I was in agreement with you.
But that is still not meat in and of itself. That only tells me that the way we process food (in particular meat) is unhealthy. But anyone doing a High School Health course could tell you that.

And again, we could sit here and list all the potential harmful side affects of everything. Wheat, flour, water, fruit etc. We live in risk, everything can cause potential death. We shouldn't live our life with that controlling us, though.

Of course semi vegetarianism and pescaterianism mortality would not be the reason people offered meat as prasad when religious books say you shouldn't. After all, sparing servings of meat/ regular fish consumption is good for the health

Fair point. But remember traditions vary among Hindus.
In Fiji a substance called Kava is often offered as Prasad. Kava is a root extract that has a somewhat intoxicating affect if drunk. (It's also bloody awful.)
In remote regions of Nepal there are a village or two who partake in drinking/ingesting marijuana during Holy. To be fair this is rejected by pretty much every other Hindu in existence. (Though personally I wouldn't mind trying Bhang.)

Hindus worship through many different paths, I wouldn't expect "food morality" to be any different.
 
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Amrut

Aum - Advaita
So you're saying that food affects the metaphysical aspects of us? How? Food is not abstract, the mind can be considered to be though. So how can the physical affect the non physical? I don't understand.

Namaste,

Each physical part of body has a energy counterpart part. Hindu-s believe in existence of 5 bodies. The prANamaya kosha which is called as energy body or aura has chakra-s and nADI-s (nerves made up of energy). Similarly, all living beings have subtle bodies. Even plants have subtle bodies including fruits. when any food is consumed, it's energy counterpart. Mind is connected with Body and other subtle bodies. So when food is digested, the energy part is absorbed by energy body. AS one progresses spiritually, mind becomes peaceful and the vibrations or energy becomes more and more subtle. There is inner happiness, a sense of peace and bliss, contentionment (as there are no or little worldly desires that disturb the peace of mind. The food that has subtle energy is considered as best option for spiritual progress. Fruits since they grow in air has most of AkAsha tatva (space element).

As body and mind are connected, most of the diseases, as per modern medical science are psycho-somatic diseases. So if mind is upset, it reflects on body, specially on the face. Emotions such as stress, tension, happiness, are inside the mind, but they are reflected on face. Similarly if mind is upset, so is stomach. They both are interconnected. Hence if body is healthy, and it gets food only that much is necessary, not extra, not less, then body remains healthy and hence mind is also affected in a positive way.

A little offtopic, when food is offered to God, it is our emotion combined with the food that the God accepts. Or devatA-s consume the energy counterpart or bless the energy part of food. Sri Abhinavgupta of Kashmir Shaivism says that devatA-s are inside our body too, they taste food through our tongue. They are subtle energy points within our body.

Enter the world of Yoga and you will find many such explanations like cleaning of energy body, nADI-s, chakra-s and mind.

Hari OM
 

ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
Mass consciousness has power.

Yes we are individuals, jiva souls, but what some even call "fads" or perhaps "social norms", et all, in the Hinduism I was taught there is a "power" that can arise from "mass consciousness" (collective emotion, collective mind, even collective soul) that can, once an emanation, "move about". It is also tied into karma as a "domino effect" and thus, yes it is possible we have "different ages" (such as Kali Yuga).

An acceptance, in a nonchalant manner, of selling body parts of late term unborn babies develops a "mass consciousness" that in the Kali Yuga will trend masses to eat initially these unborn as food, eventually trending to cannibalism of the Age of Kali.

Mass consciousness can also bring "beings" to life if the mass consciousness is extreme and focused, such as in the middle of a horrific battle when, someone says they see "God of (name)" and then in the middle of battle a God, emanated by the mass consciousness of the soldiers under an altered state of battle, all suddenly see this God which then takes a life of it's own and "moves about" and has a force or power.

So that is why, eating meat, for example during the Kali Yuga, if it is a culture so in your face with it and dominant at every level, can inject into the karmic air a mass consciousness that can "come alive" in a sick way ("sick society") that "feeds violence".

I am not saying "outlaw the eating of chicken", many Hindus eat fish, chicken and so on (but no Hindu should ever eat Cow), but what I am saying is if this becomes "in your face" everywhere, then an addiction and mind slavery, it will cause a mass consciousness that can bring about a "power" of it's own that will bring about a downward spiral of civilization... these things do seem to come in cycles that predicate a "reform", such as when Buddha preached against animal sacrifice performed (evolving into almost a bloodlust of mind slavery) by some so-calied "Brahmins" and others claiming "see, the Vedas say so". It is really amazing in one way how some "supreme truths" are read into the Vedas, and the next thing you know they eat each other even if One Family.

Better less of this meat eating than more.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Namaste,

Each physical part of body has a energy counterpart part. Hindu-s believe in existence of 5 bodies. The prANamaya kosha which is called as energy body or aura has chakra-s and nADI-s (nerves made up of energy). Similarly, all living beings have subtle bodies. Even plants have subtle bodies including fruits. when any food is consumed, it's energy counterpart. Mind is connected with Body and other subtle bodies. So when food is digested, the energy part is absorbed by energy body. AS one progresses spiritually, mind becomes peaceful and the vibrations or energy becomes more and more subtle. There is inner happiness, a sense of peace and bliss, contentionment (as there are no or little worldly desires that disturb the peace of mind. The food that has subtle energy is considered as best option for spiritual progress. Fruits since they grow in air has most of AkAsha tatva (space element).

As body and mind are connected, most of the diseases, as per modern medical science are psycho-somatic diseases. So if mind is upset, it reflects on body, specially on the face. Emotions such as stress, tension, happiness, are inside the mind, but they are reflected on face. Similarly if mind is upset, so is stomach. They both are interconnected. Hence if body is healthy, and it gets food only that much is necessary, not extra, not less, then body remains healthy and hence mind is also affected in a positive way.

A little offtopic, when food is offered to God, it is our emotion combined with the food that the God accepts. Or devatA-s consume the energy counterpart or bless the energy part of food. Sri Abhinavgupta of Kashmir Shaivism says that devatA-s are inside our body too, they taste food through our tongue. They are subtle energy points within our body.

Enter the world of Yoga and you will find many such explanations like cleaning of energy body, nADI-s, chakra-s and mind.

Hari OM

Ahh, now I see. Thank you for the explanation, brother or sister.
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
True. This is also true of people with meat in their diet. Correlation is wonderful, but I don't know if I'd call it causation without a bit more information.
Well, the question wasn't about causation; but i think its sufficient proof that vegetarianism doesn't hamper the intellect's functioning, and perhaps may even improve it.

I wouldn't go that far. As more and more information becomes available the "research" updates itself. There is not always agreement in the Sciences, but it's ability to correct itself is it's strongest feature.
Sure, only that the vaidika wisdom has already gone through the iterations and "science" is only catching up; if history is any testimony, modern science has only proved vaidika wisdom, albeit in roundabout ways.

So you're saying that food affects the metaphysical aspects of us? How? Food is not abstract, the mind can be considered to be though. So how can the physical affect the non physical? I don't understand.
I think Amrut ji pretty much summarized my understanding on the topic. Even without going into the metaphysical aspects, one can see its effect - consider foods that directly aggravate blood pressure and salt, processed meat, chicken, etc top the list, all of which are in rajasika/tamasika category.

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि ।
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, the question wasn't about causation; but i think its sufficient proof that vegetarianism doesn't hamper the intellect's functioning, and perhaps may even improve it.

Like I said, societies that ate meat have just as much success with intellectual achievement, so this is merely a correlation. Correlation doesn't amount to proof, it's just two things happening at once. That's it. But I never claimed that a vegetarian diet hampered one's mind or intellect. Nor did I imply that meat does the same or give one an advantage. I merely said that meat contains very beneficial brain nutrients is all.

Sure, only that the vaidika wisdom has already gone through the iterations and "science" is only catching up; if history is any testimony, modern science has only proved vaidika wisdom, albeit in roundabout ways.

Ehh, everyone says this of their own religious/science crossover. People say this of the Bible, the Torah and practically any other Holy work you can think of. I think there's truth in the scriptures and other holy practices. But I'm not well versed in Vaidika wisdom, so I really can't say one way or the other until I search for more information.

I think Amrut ji pretty much summarized my understanding on the topic. Even without going into the metaphysical aspects, one can see its effect - consider foods that directly aggravate blood pressure and salt, processed meat, chicken, etc top the list, all of which are in rajasika/tamasika category.

Well yes I agree. It was a good explanation and food for thought.
But..........extremes are never good. Too much salt in your diet causes many health problems. Too little and you literally die. That's not exaggeration either, you will actually die if you don't have any sodium in your diet.
I already said previously that I consider processed meat bad.
Chicken skin is what aggravates blood pressure, actually.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
Mass consciousness has power.

Yes we are individuals, jiva souls, but what some even call "fads" or perhaps "social norms", et all, in the Hinduism I was taught there is a "power" that can arise from "mass consciousness" (collective emotion, collective mind, even collective soul) that can, once an emanation, "move about". It is also tied into karma as a "domino effect" and thus, yes it is possible we have "different ages" (such as Kali Yuga).

An acceptance, in a nonchalant manner, of selling body parts of late term unborn babies develops a "mass consciousness" that in the Kali Yuga will trend masses to eat initially these unborn as food, eventually trending to cannibalism of the Age of Kali.

Mass consciousness can also bring "beings" to life if the mass consciousness is extreme and focused, such as in the middle of a horrific battle when, someone says they see "God of (name)" and then in the middle of battle a God, emanated by the mass consciousness of the soldiers under an altered state of battle, all suddenly see this God which then takes a life of it's own and "moves about" and has a force or power.

So that is why, eating meat, for example during the Kali Yuga, if it is a culture so in your face with it and dominant at every level, can inject into the karmic air a mass consciousness that can "come alive" in a sick way ("sick society") that "feeds violence".

I am not saying "outlaw the eating of chicken", many Hindus eat fish, chicken and so on (but no Hindu should ever eat Cow), but what I am saying is if this becomes "in your face" everywhere, then an addiction and mind slavery, it will cause a mass consciousness that can bring about a "power" of it's own that will bring about a downward spiral of civilization... these things do seem to come in cycles that predicate a "reform", such as when Buddha preached against animal sacrifice performed (evolving into almost a bloodlust of mind slavery) by some so-calied "Brahmins" and others claiming "see, the Vedas say so". It is really amazing in one way how some "supreme truths" are read into the Vedas, and the next thing you know they eat each other even if One Family.

Better less of this meat eating than more.

Well, the question wasn't about causation; but i think its sufficient proof that vegetarianism doesn't hamper the intellect's functioning, and perhaps may even improve it.


Sure, only that the vaidika wisdom has already gone through the iterations and "science" is only catching up; if history is any testimony, modern science has only proved vaidika wisdom, albeit in roundabout ways.


I think Amrut ji pretty much summarized my understanding on the topic. Even without going into the metaphysical aspects, one can see its effect - consider foods that directly aggravate blood pressure and salt, processed meat, chicken, etc top the list, all of which are in rajasika/tamasika category.

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि ।

But if the Vedas say you shouldn't do it (and the Vedas is what makes a Hindu a Hindu so in that regards there is no the that Hinduism is 'varying beliefs' ) why did they do it in the first place?

I read Buddhism's absorption by Hinduism was where the concept of Ahimsa came from and the Vedas said certain castes can eat meat (but they were unclear regarding sacrifice). I also read the Aryans were the ones who introduced animal sacrifice.

I was also told by my cousin not to eat snake (as well as cow) because a family deity is a snake god although I eat chicken (as well as most of India) and Bahuchara mata rides a rooster
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
But if the Vedas say you shouldn't do it (and the Vedas is what makes a Hindu a Hindu so in that regards there is no the that Hinduism is 'varying beliefs' ) why did they do it in the first place?

I read Buddhism's absorption by Hinduism was where the concept of Ahimsa came from and the Vedas said certain castes can eat meat (but they were unclear regarding sacrifice). I also read the Aryans were the ones who introduced animal sacrifice.

I was also told by my cousin not to eat snake (as well as cow) because a family deity is a snake god although I eat chicken (as well as most of India) and Bahuchara mata rides a rooster

Well a rooster is not a chicken, is it?
It's more complicated than just following or not following scripture.
Hindus aren't like Abrahamics in this regard, many Hindus respectfully reject any scripture that does not hold "Truth" for them and don't seem to be shunned for this (except maybe by the hardcore among the various sects.) There are many "flavors" of Hindus, each with their own family customs and traditions. They will vary. As will their diets. *shrugs*
Maybe this would help?
http://www.clovegarden.com/diet/hindu.html
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
A rooster is definitely a chicken!

I eat neither chicken nor fish :)
Well a rooster is a bloke chicken. It probably has more of a tendency towards chicken beer and getting hen pecked by the missus.;)
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Well a rooster is a bloke chicken. It probably has more of a tendency towards chicken beer and getting hen pecked by the missus.;)

Quite the inverse in chicken society. The rooster in charge pecks everyone. Every other rooster is at the bottom of the heap.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Quite the inverse in chicken society. The rooster in charge pecks everyone. Every other rooster is at the bottom of the heap.

Ahh so the poor roosters are henpecked by their boss then? Talk about a lousy day job XD
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
Nor did I imply that meat does the same or give one an advantage. I merely said that meat contains very beneficial brain nutrients is all.
But meat contains B12 a nutrient completely necessary for healthy brain development and a deficiency in such a nutrient can actively damage the brain irreparably. How can meat harm our mind if it literally makes the brain stronger?
Carnosine is necessary for human health and is literally only found in the flesh.

and meat (and many currently considered vegetarian food) irreparably corrupt the mind making it incapable of even simple dhyāna while weakening all the nāḍis of the body. So, fwiw, for those seeking adhyātmika progress,

So the primary context i was speaking with regard to was the adhyātmika progress.

True. This is also true of people with meat in their diet. Correlation is wonderful, but I don't know if I'd call it causation without a bit more information.
Ehh, everyone says this of their own religious/science crossover. People say this of the Bible, the Torah and practically any other Holy work you can think of. I think there's truth in the scriptures and other holy practices. But I'm not well versed in Vaidika wisdom, so I really can't say one way or the other until I search for more information.
Irrespective of whether it is causation/correlation and whether one grasps it or not, the Vedas and allied scriptures are clear about prescriptive regulations on food, and for adhyātmika progress vegetarianism is mandated - now adhyātmika progress is impossible without a strong and fully developed intellect (at least not in vaidika tradition based on mīmāṅsa, though the words rhymes with mānsa/meat). Many ancient practices may indeed contain wisdom in them. I can say that about Zoroastrianism (many parts in it are directly from the vedas) but not sure about the rest (mainly because i have neither studied nor practiced any of them). The Vedas don't require you to take a leap of faith and you will not find 'information' as such in them. They constitute wisdom beheld by the ancient ṛṣis and is fully open source - whoever is capable enough to imbibe and practice their methods shall arrive at the same Truth. The point i'm trying to make is this: many food may well be very nutritious, but that is not the sole parameter for judging their pathya or apathya, the criteria is based on their qualitative effect on the antaḥkaraṇas. Chicken (for example), with or without skin hampers adhyātmika progress; the causation and nutritional considerations, like i said earlier, have been discussed in ayurveda. Some apathya items (from adhyātmika point of view) too are recommended as medicines - not as food. For instance, garlic has amazing medicinal properties, but is not good for adhyātmika purposes.

Ofcourse those who meat are likely more tamasic and their manas will also be attracted to tamasic devathas some with anger like Rudra/Kali and tamasic foods also aid in tamasic qualities.
I'm assuming you meant tamasika forms of these devathas, else one cannot account for Kṛṣṇa's own direction to his Yoga Māyā - Nandini - that people in the future shall worship her, and being His personal power, she cannot be tamasika.

But if the Vedas say you shouldn't do it (and the Vedas is what makes a Hindu a Hindu so in that regards there is no the that Hinduism is 'varying beliefs' ) why did they do it in the first place?
1. Not all Hindus are Vaidikas (those who follow Vedas); 2. Even amongst Vadikas, you have different schools of thought - the literalist-ritualist, the vedāntins, smārtas, and various combinations of these; 3. There are also pure tāntrikas who don't necessarily accept Vedas, but are quite influential within Hinduism.
I've discussed this in detail already, yet, several veda prescriptions taken literally appear to endorse animal sacrifice. There will always be people who will find different ways of justifying their actions of satisfying their tongue - some claiming nutritional value yet others claiming support in the lexical reading of the vedas, yet others - relatively honest kind - conceding it is merely to satisfy their tongue.

I read Buddhism's absorption by Hinduism was where the concept of Ahimsa came from and the Vedas said certain castes can eat meat (but they were unclear regarding sacrifice). I also read the Aryans were the ones who introduced animal sacrifice.
"Absorption" may not be the right term, i think, because afaik, Buddha never claimed to have started a different religion. The various Buddhist schools that exist have different versions of Buddhism, but with doctrines that may well have been conceptualized by followers of Buddha rather than Buddha Himself. Jainas who existed before Buddhism too give utmost importance to ahimsa, so do itihāsas (historical accounts like Rāmāyaṇa & Bhārata) and purāṇas - composed before emergence of jainism - that are based on the Vedas. Indeed, pure vegan/vegetarianism was mandatory for brāhmaṇas, recommended for kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, optional for śūdras. Even in the literalist/ritualist schools brāhmaṇas never accepted meat, kṣatriyas did but on rare occasions, rarer was the practice amongst vaiśyas.

Aryan thing is a different story. Aryan invasion/migration theorists hold that Vedas were introduced by them. Since invasion theory has died its natural death, and migration theory posits migration in small numbers over an extended period of time, it is merely a figment of imagination that such small migrations replaced existing culture in its entirety enforcing its own views. Still, i think its a separate discussion (rather a debate), since there is no conclusive evidence on this and even within unbiased scientific community there are multiple theories.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
So the primary context i was speaking with regard to was the adhyātmika progress.



Irrespective of whether it is causation/correlation and whether one grasps it or not, the Vedas and allied scriptures are clear about prescriptive regulations on food, and for adhyātmika progress vegetarianism is mandated - now adhyātmika progress is impossible without a strong and fully developed intellect (at least not in vaidika tradition based on mīmāṅsa, though the words rhymes with mānsa/meat). Many ancient practices may indeed contain wisdom in them. I can say that about Zoroastrianism (many parts in it are directly from the vedas) but not sure about the rest (mainly because i have neither studied nor practiced any of them). The Vedas don't require you to take a leap of faith and you will not find 'information' as such in them. They constitute wisdom beheld by the ancient ṛṣis and is fully open source - whoever is capable enough to imbibe and practice their methods shall arrive at the same Truth. The point i'm trying to make is this: many food may well be very nutritious, but that is not the sole parameter for judging their pathya or apathya, the criteria is based on their qualitative effect on the antaḥkaraṇas. Chicken (for example), with or without skin hampers adhyātmika progress; the causation and nutritional considerations, like i said earlier, have been discussed in ayurveda. Some apathya items (from adhyātmika point of view) too are recommended as medicines - not as food. For instance, garlic has amazing medicinal properties, but is not good for adhyātmika purposes.


I'm assuming you meant tamasika forms of these devathas, else one cannot account for Kṛṣṇa's own direction to his Yoga Māyā - Nandini - that people in the future shall worship her, and being His personal power, she cannot be tamasika.


1. Not all Hindus are Vaidikas (those who follow Vedas); 2. Even amongst Vadikas, you have different schools of thought - the literalist-ritualist, the vedāntins, smārtas, and various combinations of these; 3. There are also pure tāntrikas who don't necessarily accept Vedas, but are quite influential within Hinduism.
I've discussed this in detail already, yet, several veda prescriptions taken literally appear to endorse animal sacrifice. There will always be people who will find different ways of justifying their actions of satisfying their tongue - some claiming nutritional value yet others claiming support in the lexical reading of the vedas, yet others - relatively honest kind - conceding it is merely to satisfy their tongue.


"Absorption" may not be the right term, i think, because afaik, Buddha never claimed to have started a different religion. The various Buddhist schools that exist have different versions of Buddhism, but with doctrines that may well have been conceptualized by followers of Buddha rather than Buddha Himself. Jainas who existed before Buddhism too give utmost importance to ahimsa, so do itihāsas (historical accounts like Rāmāyaṇa & Bhārata) and purāṇas - composed before emergence of jainism - that are based on the Vedas. Indeed, pure vegan/vegetarianism was mandatory for brāhmaṇas, recommended for kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, optional for śūdras. Even in the literalist/ritualist schools brāhmaṇas never accepted meat, kṣatriyas did but on rare occasions, rarer was the practice amongst vaiśyas.

Aryan thing is a different story. Aryan invasion/migration theorists hold that Vedas were introduced by them. Since invasion theory has died its natural death, and migration theory posits migration in small numbers over an extended period of time, it is merely a figment of imagination that such small migrations replaced existing culture in its entirety enforcing its own views. Still, i think its a separate discussion (rather a debate), since there is no conclusive evidence on this and even within unbiased scientific community there are multiple theories.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

Perhaps I'm too used to the physical realm and its perimeters to truly understand what you're trying to get across. I certainly am ignorant of vindaikan wisdom.
Or perhaps my youthful arrogance and taught skepticism is blocking me here.
But I'll try to think on this brother. (Plus I hate fighting with my phones autocorrect so I'll come back later.)
 

Kirran

Premium Member
So the primary context i was speaking with regard to was the adhyātmika progress.



Irrespective of whether it is causation/correlation and whether one grasps it or not, the Vedas and allied scriptures are clear about prescriptive regulations on food, and for adhyātmika progress vegetarianism is mandated - now adhyātmika progress is impossible without a strong and fully developed intellect (at least not in vaidika tradition based on mīmāṅsa, though the words rhymes with mānsa/meat). Many ancient practices may indeed contain wisdom in them. I can say that about Zoroastrianism (many parts in it are directly from the vedas) but not sure about the rest (mainly because i have neither studied nor practiced any of them). The Vedas don't require you to take a leap of faith and you will not find 'information' as such in them. They constitute wisdom beheld by the ancient ṛṣis and is fully open source - whoever is capable enough to imbibe and practice their methods shall arrive at the same Truth. The point i'm trying to make is this: many food may well be very nutritious, but that is not the sole parameter for judging their pathya or apathya, the criteria is based on their qualitative effect on the antaḥkaraṇas. Chicken (for example), with or without skin hampers adhyātmika progress; the causation and nutritional considerations, like i said earlier, have been discussed in ayurveda. Some apathya items (from adhyātmika point of view) too are recommended as medicines - not as food. For instance, garlic has amazing medicinal properties, but is not good for adhyātmika purposes.


I'm assuming you meant tamasika forms of these devathas, else one cannot account for Kṛṣṇa's own direction to his Yoga Māyā - Nandini - that people in the future shall worship her, and being His personal power, she cannot be tamasika.


1. Not all Hindus are Vaidikas (those who follow Vedas); 2. Even amongst Vadikas, you have different schools of thought - the literalist-ritualist, the vedāntins, smārtas, and various combinations of these; 3. There are also pure tāntrikas who don't necessarily accept Vedas, but are quite influential within Hinduism.
I've discussed this in detail already, yet, several veda prescriptions taken literally appear to endorse animal sacrifice. There will always be people who will find different ways of justifying their actions of satisfying their tongue - some claiming nutritional value yet others claiming support in the lexical reading of the vedas, yet others - relatively honest kind - conceding it is merely to satisfy their tongue.


"Absorption" may not be the right term, i think, because afaik, Buddha never claimed to have started a different religion. The various Buddhist schools that exist have different versions of Buddhism, but with doctrines that may well have been conceptualized by followers of Buddha rather than Buddha Himself. Jainas who existed before Buddhism too give utmost importance to ahimsa, so do itihāsas (historical accounts like Rāmāyaṇa & Bhārata) and purāṇas - composed before emergence of jainism - that are based on the Vedas. Indeed, pure vegan/vegetarianism was mandatory for brāhmaṇas, recommended for kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, optional for śūdras. Even in the literalist/ritualist schools brāhmaṇas never accepted meat, kṣatriyas did but on rare occasions, rarer was the practice amongst vaiśyas.

Aryan thing is a different story. Aryan invasion/migration theorists hold that Vedas were introduced by them. Since invasion theory has died its natural death, and migration theory posits migration in small numbers over an extended period of time, it is merely a figment of imagination that such small migrations replaced existing culture in its entirety enforcing its own views. Still, i think its a separate discussion (rather a debate), since there is no conclusive evidence on this and even within unbiased scientific community there are multiple theories.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

A great set of points.

It's not just nutrition, very true, but the impact on the mind.

But please let's keep Aryan Migration out of this, it's not really relevant and only stirs up argument.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Since invasion theory has died its natural death, and migration theory posits migration in small numbers over an extended period of time, it is merely a figment of imagination that such small migrations replaced existing culture in its entirety enforcing its own views. Still, i think its a separate discussion (rather a debate), since there is no conclusive evidence on this and even within unbiased scientific community there are multiple theories.
Invasion theory is not supported in the books because no Aryan/Indigenous people war is mentioned. The Migration did not affect the indigenous very much, they went on worshiping Rama, Krishna, Shiva and Shakti, abstaining from beef and preferring vegetarianism when it concerned spiritual advancement. Only that Vedas were given a high position (without many people reading or understanding them, or even following them ;)) and Sanskrit was accepted as the academic language. But as Tattvaprahva and Kirran have said, that is another topic.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
Invasion theory is not supported in the books because no Aryan/Indigenous people war is mentioned. The Migration did not affect the indigenous very much, they went on worshiping Rama, Krishna, Shiva and Shakti, abstaining from beef and preferring vegetarianism when it concerned spiritual advancement. Only that Vedas were given a high position (without many people reading or understanding them, or even following them ;)) and Sanskrit was accepted as the academic language. But as Tattvaprahva and Kirran have said, that is another topic.

So the primary context i was speaking with regard to was the adhyātmika progress.



Irrespective of whether it is causation/correlation and whether one grasps it or not, the Vedas and allied scriptures are clear about prescriptive regulations on food, and for adhyātmika progress vegetarianism is mandated - now adhyātmika progress is impossible without a strong and fully developed intellect (at least not in vaidika tradition based on mīmāṅsa, though the words rhymes with mānsa/meat). Many ancient practices may indeed contain wisdom in them. I can say that about Zoroastrianism (many parts in it are directly from the vedas) but not sure about the rest (mainly because i have neither studied nor practiced any of them). The Vedas don't require you to take a leap of faith and you will not find 'information' as such in them. They constitute wisdom beheld by the ancient ṛṣis and is fully open source - whoever is capable enough to imbibe and practice their methods shall arrive at the same Truth. The point i'm trying to make is this: many food may well be very nutritious, but that is not the sole parameter for judging their pathya or apathya, the criteria is based on their qualitative effect on the antaḥkaraṇas. Chicken (for example), with or without skin hampers adhyātmika progress; the causation and nutritional considerations, like i said earlier, have been discussed in ayurveda. Some apathya items (from adhyātmika point of view) too are recommended as medicines - not as food. For instance, garlic has amazing medicinal properties, but is not good for adhyātmika purposes.


I'm assuming you meant tamasika forms of these devathas, else one cannot account for Kṛṣṇa's own direction to his Yoga Māyā - Nandini - that people in the future shall worship her, and being His personal power, she cannot be tamasika.


1. Not all Hindus are Vaidikas (those who follow Vedas); 2. Even amongst Vadikas, you have different schools of thought - the literalist-ritualist, the vedāntins, smārtas, and various combinations of these; 3. There are also pure tāntrikas who don't necessarily accept Vedas, but are quite influential within Hinduism.
I've discussed this in detail already, yet, several veda prescriptions taken literally appear to endorse animal sacrifice. There will always be people who will find different ways of justifying their actions of satisfying their tongue - some claiming nutritional value yet others claiming support in the lexical reading of the vedas, yet others - relatively honest kind - conceding it is merely to satisfy their tongue.


"Absorption" may not be the right term, i think, because afaik, Buddha never claimed to have started a different religion. The various Buddhist schools that exist have different versions of Buddhism, but with doctrines that may well have been conceptualized by followers of Buddha rather than Buddha Himself. Jainas who existed before Buddhism too give utmost importance to ahimsa, so do itihāsas (historical accounts like Rāmāyaṇa & Bhārata) and purāṇas - composed before emergence of jainism - that are based on the Vedas. Indeed, pure vegan/vegetarianism was mandatory for brāhmaṇas, recommended for kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, optional for śūdras. Even in the literalist/ritualist schools brāhmaṇas never accepted meat, kṣatriyas did but on rare occasions, rarer was the practice amongst vaiśyas.

Aryan thing is a different story. Aryan invasion/migration theorists hold that Vedas were introduced by them. Since invasion theory has died its natural death, and migration theory posits migration in small numbers over an extended period of time, it is merely a figment of imagination that such small migrations replaced existing culture in its entirety enforcing its own views. Still, i think its a separate discussion (rather a debate), since there is no conclusive evidence on this and even within unbiased scientific community there are multiple theories.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।


I was waiting for you Mr Aupmanyav

I was under the belief that a Hindu is one who follows Vedas because Sikhs vehemently reject being a sect of Hinduism as well as Buddhists (after all Buddhism replaced Hinduism in Thailand, Laos, Burma and Vietnam and Hinduless Buddhism is in China, Japan and Korea. See:


Hindu philosophy is traditionally divided into six āstika (Sanskrit: आस्तिक "orthodox") schools of thought,[22] or darśanam (दर्शनम्, "view"), which accept the Vedas as the supreme revealed scriptures. The schools are:

  1. Samkhya, an atheistic and strongly dualist theoretical exposition of consciousness and matter.
  2. Yoga, a school emphasizing meditation, contemplation and liberation.
  3. Nyaya or logic, explores sources of knowledge. Nyāya Sūtras.
  4. Vaisheshika, an empiricist school of atomism
  5. Mimāṃsā, an anti-ascetic and anti-mysticist school of orthopraxy
  6. Vedanta, the last segment of knowledge in the Vedas, or the 'Jnan' (knowledge) 'Kanda' (section).
The nāstika schools are (in chronological order):

  1. Cārvāka
  2. Jainism
  3. Ājīvika
  4. Buddhism
  5. Sikhism
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In the quote in the post above, Sikhism has been included as a 'nastika' school. Sikhism does not deny Brahman, and therefore cannot be taken as 'nastika'. Sikhism's 'astikaness' or 'nastikaness' was never discussed. It is too recent. Also, even the 'nastika' schools were part of Hinduism, only differed in their opinion. For example, the Hinduness of the 'Charvakists' was never in question. They were very much so.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
There are certainly some Buddhists and Sikhs out there who consider themselves Hindu :)

These labels are artificial, especially Hindu.
 
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