religious atheists and mystical experiences?

As in someone who does not believe in any gods, perhaps not even supernaturalism, but still has a religion that they in some sense still practice?

I consider myself this but I find it hard to explain to people how I can separate the symbolic ritualistic/meditative aspect of religion from the interpretation of mystical experiences as being inherently supernatural. As in, you can go and do something ritualistically or in meditation, but it doesn't mean something out of the ordinary happened, since you are essentially working with what is best described as a lucid dream while awake as a conscious, intentional decision.

Then of course, sometimes you just talk over people's heads explaining that and they think you are crazy, but from a psychological standpoint I think that many of the old mystical traditions might have something of value even to us atheists, if we allow ourselves either out of curiosity or a desire to discover or improve something about ourselves or our personal perceptional experience of the world (in some ways mystical experiences can make us see the world 'fresh' again and in a new light).

With that said, there are many old methods and traditions that can aid in this. Kind of like how there are a lot of atheistic schools of Buddhism that focus on how to live and meditation practices without the supernatural mumbo-jumbo.

Do you feel that this is perhaps where religion should go? Or that it might be something for a scientifically literate and curious person to seriously consider as worthwhile (perhaps the practice of lucid dreaming being of a similar nature, would be worth asking the value in that too)? I think it is myself personally but I'm always afraid of being mocked or misunderstood/my words taken out of context when I voice this opinion.

Myself, I see theism and atheism as fairly independent from religious pratice and experiences. They are just stances regarding belief, after all.

At the most, they play a role on how one interprets religion.

It just turns out that some of the most demographically succesfull religions insist (IMO quite unproperly and destructively) that belief in some form of deity is Very Important.

Mandi said:

Do you feel that this is perhaps where religion should go? Or that it might be something for a scientifically literate and curious person to seriously consider as worthwhile (perhaps the practice of lucid dreaming being of a similar nature, would be worth asking the value in that too)? I think it is myself personally but I'm always afraid of being mocked or misunderstood/my words taken out of context when I voice this opinion.

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I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment, but I don't think you should hold back. Just weigh your words carefully and tailor them for your target audience. Never really fails me. Assume that you will be "talking over their heads" and work from there.

I found myself having spiritual feelings as an atheist, and asking the same questions that you are. It led me to a meditation practice that draws on wisdom from Buddhist, Hindu, and Christian traditions, but I do not identify as a practitioner of any of those religions. I am very interested in mystical experience. Please feel free to ask these kinds of questions in the Mysticism DIR also, and welcome to the boards.

It may be stretching the bounds of the DIR rules for me to reply to this thread, but I'm going to suggest I'm fairly non-traditionally "theistic" in any case and what I want to say can be said from an atheistic standpoint, apart from any particular religious formulation, so that's what I'm going to do while employing my normal strategy of asking for forgiveness rather than permission.

Mandi said:

As in someone who does not believe in any gods, perhaps not even supernaturalism, but still has a religion that they in some sense still practice?

I consider myself this but I find it hard to explain to people how I can separate the symbolic ritualistic/meditative aspect of religion from the interpretation of mystical experiences as being inherently supernatural. As in, you can go and do something ritualistically or in meditation, but it doesn't mean something out of the ordinary happened, since you are essentially working with what is best described as a lucid dream while awake as a conscious, intentional decision.

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I think it's fair to say that terms like natural and supernatural, and especially "mystical" are somewhat hard to pin down, and so discussing the metaphysical status of mystical experience may be complicated by the difficulty in settling what the terms mean.

That said, I also think there are clear practical distinctions between the way we usually talk about what would be considered a natural phenomenon in comparison to what may be called supernatural, where usually the latter ends up meaning more or less some kind of intervention from a supposed intelligent will, existing outside of the rest of reality (outside of the universe), and which involves some suspension of an otherwise "natural" order of things within the universe.

With regard to the "mystical", being led by the etymology as well as by writings from many traditions, I think a useful and broad definition should avoid begging the question of whether such experiences are supernatural. That is, it especially should avoid privileging a religious or theistic view, especially given similarities in descriptions and insights about mystical experience between theistic and non-theistic traditions. With that in mind I would suggest that mystical experience involves an un-mediated (immediate) awareness and intuition of life, or of being, which seems to the experiencer to defy the possibility of a comprehensive description (ineffability) but which creates or helps cultivate a certain state of consciousness, or attitude towards life, normally characterized by words like joy, fullness, peace, detachment, magnanimity, increased self-awareness, compassion, and etc.

I would suggest that nothing in that definition requires meditation or mystical awareness to be "supernatural", or implies any sort of Deity in the traditional monotheistic sense.

Mandi said:

Then of course, sometimes you just talk over people's heads explaining that and they think you are crazy, but from a psychological standpoint I think that many of the old mystical traditions might have something of value even to us atheists, if we allow ourselves either out of curiosity or a desire to discover or improve something about ourselves or our personal perceptional experience of the world (in some ways mystical experiences can make us see the world 'fresh' again and in a new light).

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I think for the most part naturalistic objections to the idea of mysticism involve not so much the rejection of mysticism as theistic, but rather a suspicion about the idea of ineffability, and the assumption of certain metaphysical or epistemological principles that lead to rejecting the possibility of finding value in mystical experience. In one sense, the objections are continuations of the very rationally correct rejection of the supernatural, and the elevation of the importance of rational evidence in determining knowledge and assessing the value of any experience, point of view, or belief. But, to value mysticism as I've presented it requires accepting some kind of limitation on rational evidence, in the sense that in describing the mystical as ineffable almost every mystical tradition and practice puts the experience beyond the possibility of a completely rational/objective knowledge, because the experience does not admit of something more fundamental which could justify it.

Mandi said:

Do you feel that this is perhaps where religion should go? Or that it might be something for a scientifically literate and curious person to seriously consider as worthwhile (perhaps the practice of lucid dreaming being of a similar nature, would be worth asking the value in that too)?

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I think you are exactly correct in thinking that atheistic worldviews may incorporate and benefit from elements of mystical traditions with an emphasis on practice, rather than theory or metaphysics. You mention the psychological and other practical benefits to meditation or other methods, or refer to Buddhism, which can be practiced without adopting any theistic or supernatural metaphysics, and I think that is where a possible synthesis lies. In that way, even the "ineffability" of mysticism could be left aside as something theoretical.

In practice, there seem to be many benefits to meditation and other similar practices and those benefits may not require any metaphysical commitment at all, and can be understood purely as a matter of psychology and biology.

I do think that as soon as one tries to understand what mysticism is in some kind of theoretical way some of the tensions between worldviews may be unavoidable, as between "mysticism" and "materialism" for example, but the value of practice in one's own life may easily trump those concerns.

I will reiterate that the only requirement there is to be an atheist, is the lack of a God belief.
It is very possible to be spiritual and religious and all that, while still remaining an atheist.

Mandi said:

Do you feel that this is perhaps where religion should go? Or that it might be something for a scientifically literate and curious person to seriously consider as worthwhile (perhaps the practice of lucid dreaming being of a similar nature, would be worth asking the value in that too)? I think it is myself personally but I'm always afraid of being mocked or misunderstood/my words taken out of context when I voice this opinion.

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Well it's a good thing you're on the Internet, opinions are the dark matter of this form of space.
I agree, many religious people need to take a chill pill and meditate on logic mountain for a bit.
Not all, just... most.

Mandi said:

Do you feel that this is perhaps where religion should go? Or that it might be something for a scientifically literate and curious person to seriously consider as worthwhile (perhaps the practice of lucid dreaming being of a similar nature, would be worth asking the value in that too)? I think it is myself personally but I'm always afraid of being mocked or misunderstood/my words taken out of context when I voice this opinion.

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Neither religion nor spirituality require belief in a God.

However some people are just going to continue to assume this is a requirement.

I think you'll find there are some of us here who understand your position and do things like meditate without any supernatural elements involved. Welcome aboard!

Mandi said:

As in someone who does not believe in any gods, perhaps not even supernaturalism, but still has a religion that they in some sense still practice?

I consider myself this but I find it hard to explain to people how I can separate the symbolic ritualistic/meditative aspect of religion from the interpretation of mystical experiences as being inherently supernatural. As in, you can go and do something ritualistically or in meditation, but it doesn't mean something out of the ordinary happened, since you are essentially working with what is best described as a lucid dream while awake as a conscious, intentional decision.

Then of course, sometimes you just talk over people's heads explaining that and they think you are crazy, but from a psychological standpoint I think that many of the old mystical traditions might have something of value even to us atheists, if we allow ourselves either out of curiosity or a desire to discover or improve something about ourselves or our personal perceptional experience of the world (in some ways mystical experiences can make us see the world 'fresh' again and in a new light).

With that said, there are many old methods and traditions that can aid in this. Kind of like how there are a lot of atheistic schools of Buddhism that focus on how to live and meditation practices without the supernatural mumbo-jumbo.

Do you feel that this is perhaps where religion should go? Or that it might be something for a scientifically literate and curious person to seriously consider as worthwhile (perhaps the practice of lucid dreaming being of a similar nature, would be worth asking the value in that too)? I think it is myself personally but I'm always afraid of being mocked or misunderstood/my words taken out of context when I voice this opinion.

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Well, this tells me that people have in their deepest longings a desire for spirituality. Yes?