• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Deity, The Universe, The Self: Body or Personality?

TheSounding

TheSounding

village idiot
I have been thinking about this for a while now. It is a question of how people see themselves and how they relate that identity to their deity. I have the idea that people who see themselves as their body, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their personality, tend to identity the universe as God's body, or God himself. And likewise, people who see themselves as only their personality, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their body, tend to identify the universe as the expression of God's personality, but not God himself. Is how we see ourselves the way we tend to see our deity(ies)? What do you think? Would this tend to be the case? What do you believe about yourself?
 
Last edited:
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Personality belongs, symbolically, to the body--self is something other, something that can attach to personality as easily as it is attached to body.

We attach to anger as easily as we attach to the taste of ice cream. And as thoroughly.
 
TheSounding

TheSounding

village idiot
The Sum of Awe said:
That is true with me at least
Click to expand...

So how do you identify yourself and your deity?

Willamena said:
Personality belongs, symbolically, to the body--self is something other, something that can attach to personality as easily as it is attached to body.

We attach to anger as easily as we attach to the taste of ice cream. And as thoroughly.
Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean by that, although I'll take a stab at it.
Your saying that the notion of self is in a state of limbo where it's neither associated with the mind nor body?
Perhaps you can clarify.

Bunyip said:
I guess I see myself as a combination of both the mind and the body - the whole.
Click to expand...

If the mind/personality is a product of the brain, an organ of the body, wouldn't that really be just body? You don't find minds without brains, or brains without minds (injury aside). In your case, because you view yourself as your body--for you don't exclude it from your notion of yourself--I would say you actually perceive the mind as a part of the body and not equal to it. And so, is your deity tangible or intangible?
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
TheSounding said:
I am not sure what you mean by that, although I'll take a stab at it.
Your saying that the notion of self is in a state of limbo where it's neither associated with the mind nor body?
Perhaps you can clarify.
Click to expand...
Pretty much.

'Self' is a notion, a trick of grammar that requires a subject to relate to a verb: if 'I' can do things, there must be a 'me' that does them. The way we utilize this notion of 'self' renders finding something to represent it in the world (apart from the grammatical) impossible, a trick sometimes expressed as "awareness cannot be aware of itself." But that notion of 'self' dominates how we've come to relate to the world. Body and personality are there, in the world. Both are things that 'self' relates to.

In doing away with the notion of 'self,' there is "only one" being, the you-universe. That's where I find my image of 'God.'
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
TheSounding said:
I have been thinking about this for a while now. It is a question of how people see themselves and how they relate that identity to their deity. I have the idea that people who see themselves as their body, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their personality, tend to identity the universe as God's body, or God himself. And likewise, people who see themselves as only their personality, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their body, tend to identify the universe as the expression of God's personality, but not God himself. Is how we see ourselves the way we tend to see our deity(ies)? What do you think? Would this tend to be the case? What do you believe about yourself?
Click to expand...

First, thanks for the thoughtful thread and topic for us to discuss! :D

I think that in this question, there's something of a chicken-and-egg paradox. Complex concepts like self-identity and theology don't develop strongly until we're older, and are subjected to similar conditioning forces. It begs the question of whether or not a notion of self follows from our understanding of the gods, or if our understanding of the gods follows from our notion of self... and if that is all confounded by other religious (and non-religious) concepts that frequently go along with all of this, such as whether or not one is a substance monist, dualist, or pluralist. In general, though one might expect one's view of the world to be consistent with itself with respect to how one regards the nature of the gods and the nature of the self, though this is not necessarily the case.
 
TheSounding

TheSounding

village idiot
Being that two of you expressed a seemingly non-dualist outlook, consider this. One point I find interesting is that people from all parts of the globe, from all eras in history inherently conceive of an individual self and define it physiologically, either as the individual organism itself or a product of it. To my knowledge there hasn't been any record which documents a society whose outlook is universally non-dualist. And so the notion of an individual self appears to be 'programmed'.

Now taking into account the Abrahamic notion of God as 'other' with the notion of non-dualism and 'non other', is it more beneficial to the human condition to assume one notion over the other?

And because of the 'programming' of an individual self, might that in and of itself lend credence to the notion of God and 'other'? Do we as a species need that notion in order to prosper?

Willamena said:
Pretty much.

'Self' is a notion, a trick of grammar that requires a subject to relate to a verb: if 'I' can do things, there must be a 'me' that does them. The way we utilize this notion of 'self' renders finding something to represent it in the world (apart from the grammatical) impossible, a trick sometimes expressed as "awareness cannot be aware of itself." But that notion of 'self' dominates how we've come to relate to the world. Body and personality are there, in the world. Both are things that 'self' relates to.

In doing away with the notion of 'self,' there is "only one" being, the you-universe. That's where I find my image of 'God.'
Click to expand...
Quintessence said:
First, thanks for the thoughtful thread and topic for us to discuss! :D

I think that in this question, there's something of a chicken-and-egg paradox. Complex concepts like self-identity and theology don't develop strongly until we're older, and are subjected to similar conditioning forces. It begs the question of whether or not a notion of self follows from our understanding of the gods, or if our understanding of the gods follows from our notion of self... and if that is all confounded by other religious (and non-religious) concepts that frequently go along with all of this, such as whether or not one is a substance monist, dualist, or pluralist. In general, though one might expect one's view of the world to be consistent with itself with respect to how one regards the nature of the gods and the nature of the self, though this is not necessarily the case.
Click to expand...
The Sum of Awe said:
Well, I'd say that 'I' am an illusion and part of a whole greater reality, which is my deity.
Click to expand...
Bunyip said:
I guess I see myself as a combination of both the mind and the body - the whole.
Click to expand...

So what terms would you use to describe yourselves or the persuasion you follow?
 
Last edited:
The Sum of Awe

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
TheSounding said:
Being that two of you expressed a seemingly non-dualist outlook, consider this. One point I find interesting is that people from all parts of the globe, from all eras in history inherently conceive of an individual self and define it physiologically, either as the individual organism itself or a product of it. To my knowledge there hasn't been any record which documents a society whose outlook is universally non-dualist. And so the notion of an individual self appears to be 'programmed'.

Now taking into account the Abrahamic notion of God as 'other' with the notion of non-dualism and 'non other', is it more beneficial to the human condition to assume one notion over the other?

And because of the 'programming' of an individual self, might that in and of itself lend credence to the notion of God and 'other'? Do we as a species need that notion in order to prosper?






So what terms would you use to describe yourselves or the persuasion you follow?
Click to expand...
Society and culture are products of many individual personalities that have influence over each other, striving for an ideal personality. So while no society recorded has had a nondualist outlook, the nature of most, if not all recorded societies tend to be that way. Not consciously, but in their nature nonetheless. It also seems like most cultures have a vision of a One Hero who most can relate to. Myths and legends from many ancient worlds suggest of a One Man that identifies with this ideal personality flawlessly. So this ideal personality the societies build not only show through each individual member of the society and the society's practices, but many have legends of a fictional character that represents it wholeheartedly. Odysseus, Beowulf, Jesus, King Arthur, Thoth, Krishna, Hercules, Gilgamesh, etc. (Many of those examples aren't perfect examples of what I'm saying but I think they are suitable for the point I'm trying to make)

Basically, while we live and dwell in the illusion of separate selves which is how our societies base, the nondualist Oneness reality can be observed to flow out of each society unintentionally. Each society may create a different example of this oneness's personality, but the absolute reality is beyond us so we should expect it to flow that way. The main thing is, they flow in the same revealing direction that does define one of the aspects of the Absolute: we are all many different legs, but we move as one.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
TheSounding said:
I have been thinking about this for a while now. It is a question of how people see themselves and how they relate that identity to their deity. I have the idea that people who see themselves as their body, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their personality, tend to identity the universe as God's body, or God himself. And likewise, people who see themselves as only their personality, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their body, tend to identify the universe as the expression of God's personality, but not God himself. Is how we see ourselves the way we tend to see our deity(ies)? What do you think? Would this tend to be the case? What do you believe about yourself?
Click to expand...
So all you are really saying is that people project their self image onto their vision of deity. This would seem to be a fairly reasonable assessment though people generally do not like looking at things quite so clinically. If you were to stop someone on the street and suggest their vision of god was an extension or expansion of their own self image you might get a fairly cool response, however accurate the idea may actually be.

I have a very different view of identity, self and personality. I do not project that model onto a deity as I have no use for a god concept in my version of reality. IF I were to extend that model of identity, self and personality onto a deity it would have rather dampening effect on the model itself. I see consciousness as "open-ended" and the various "god concepts" are merely the flotsam and jetsam we accumulate during our very long journey. It takes almost as long to divest oneself of such notions as it does to develop a need for them.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Willamena said:
In doing away with the notion of 'self,' there is "only one" being, the you-universe. That's where I find my image of 'God.'
Click to expand...
That notion makes me a tad uncomfortable, but I know you well enough to know that there is a subtlety at play that is not instantly recognizable. You are such an adept wordsmith that one really has to weigh every word carefully.... :cool:
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
TheSounding said:
Being that two of you expressed a seemingly non-dualist outlook, consider this. One point I find interesting is that people from all parts of the globe, from all eras in history inherently conceive of an individual self and define it physiologically, either as the individual organism itself or a product of it. To my knowledge there hasn't been any record which documents a society whose outlook is universally non-dualist. And so the notion of an individual self appears to be 'programmed'.
Click to expand...
I think a notion of self is entirely unavoidable, and not just because we are so immersed in a society that transmits that notion amongst its members. There's also the realisation that we will be drawn to something entirely shiny--selfhood is as shiny as it gets.

(Very serious) Reference The Tick's journey inside his own mind. (One of the most amusing episodes of the series.)

TheSounding said:
Now taking into account the Abrahamic notion of God as 'other' with the notion of non-dualism and 'non other', is it more beneficial to the human condition to assume one notion over the other?

And because of the 'programming' of an individual self, might that in and of itself lend credence to the notion of God and 'other'? Do we as a species need that notion in order to prosper?
Click to expand...
I truly believe it is more beneficial to recognize unity or wholeness in the context of separateness than to acknowledge separateness. I don't think that 'programing' stands in the way of that. I definitely don't believe that 'programming' of any sort lends credence of any sort.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you're asking.

TheSounding said:
So what terms would you use to describe yourselves or the persuasion you follow?
Click to expand...
I've always used and favoured the term "Just Me."
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
YmirGF said:
That notion makes me a tad uncomfortable, but I know you well enough to know that there is a subtlety at play that is not instantly recognizable. You are such an adept wordsmith that one really has to weigh every word carefully.... :cool:
Click to expand...
Perhaps it's that in that the image of God is not God?
 
Last edited:
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
TheSounding said:
I have been thinking about this for a while now. It is a question of how people see themselves and how they relate that identity to their deity. I have the idea that people who see themselves as their body, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their personality, tend to identity the universe as God's body, or God himself. And likewise, people who see themselves as only their personality, who identify it as their selfhood as opposed to their body, tend to identify the universe as the expression of God's personality, but not God himself. Is how we see ourselves the way we tend to see our deity(ies)? What do you think? Would this tend to be the case? What do you believe about yourself?
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forums. 'disciple', doesn't mean ''Christian'', btw, though , I according to my definition of Xian, I am one. Then again, according to my definition, is pretty different from a lot of other peoples definitions.
//disciple
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I regard self as "being" that image for as long as that image lasts. Weither it's through waking or sleeping, or through life and death, it only carries on whenever it's being reflected upon.

Its by that reflection whereby self identity and all attributions lay, and remain dependent upon weither deified or not.

Iow, You only see yourself only as long as it remains contextual and revelant to your particular way of thinking, and all associations that happen to come with it for any givin amount of time.

That's how I see myself, for as long as it lasts.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top