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Muslims Celebrate US Recognition of Same-Sex Marriage

Sabour

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="Shad, post: 4350510, member: 54361"]If you expect someone to conform to your views then you do not respect their choice. You are against their views by your jargon about society, families, nature, etc.

Really? You do that a lot ! DONT YOU NOTICE ??


I am just pointing out you contradict yourself and do not understand your own religion.[/QUOTE]

You did nothing of that, Sorry.

Have a nice day
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
That would be dismissed from right the first words. If it is natural, whey there is no reproduction?

Because fertilization requires both sperm and an egg?

My view of it will not change. It is not scientific evidence that I need to reject it, it is moral standards.

I repeat, I don't take things at face value. Same sex marriage is destructive for societies in every possible aspect. I am not here to say what people want to hear to please their desires of confirming to what society or other people think. I am here to present things the way I see them.

Call me a hater, call me whatever you want, I repeat that I don't have a problem dealing with homosexuals as any other person. However, never expect from me to agree with the actions because I see it as wrong for too many reasons.

1) What is your evidence that same-sex marriage is destructive for societies?

By the way, the cesspools that ban same-sex marriage worldwide are usually dysfunctional, corrupt societies. Contrast that with the countries that allow it—most of which are in the developed world—and you should be able to see how your claim is utterly false.

2) It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with the "actions" of homosexuals; what matters is that you don't try to bar their freedoms and right to equality. That is when people have the right to criticize your beliefs and start dismissing them.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Because fertilization requires both sperm and an egg?

Because two men can't have a child. Two women can't have a child. It needs a man and a woman. Simple as that. Of course with some words twisting it can sound as a silly reason. But that accurately describes of whether it is natural or not.

1) What is your evidence that same-sex marriage is destructive for societies?

That conclusion can be reached through critical thinking. That is how I've been there. Perhaps people will have their evidence after some years and the subject will be the U.S.


By the way, the cesspools that ban same-sex marriage worldwide are usually dysfunctional, corrupt societies. Contrast that with the countries that allow it—most of which are in the developed world—and you should be able to see how your claim is utterly false.

So on that basis you chose who is right and who is wrong? That proves nothing. Besides there are a zillion trillion variables in place that play their part in making a society corrupt. Your conclusion has no basis.

2) It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with the "actions" of homosexuals; what matters is that you don't try to bar their freedoms and right to equality. That is when people have the right to criticize your beliefs and start dismissing them.

I don't try to do anything. If I were living in U.S and had to raise my children where someday they will ask me why is that man kissing the other man in the street, than I will travel to somewhere else.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
[QUOTE="Shad, post: 4350510, member: 54361"]If you expect someone to conform to your views then you do not respect their choice. You are against their views by your jargon about society, families, nature, etc.

Just fixing the above.

Really? You do that a lot ! DONT YOU NOTICE ??

I never said you should accept gay marriage nor change your views. I do not expect you to have one either. Even the state does not expect people to change their religious views to conform to the law.

You confuse my exception of people that spout pseudoscience to conform to scientific standards with an expectation of changing their religious views. One has a standard while religious views have no unified standards at all.

You did nothing of that, Sorry.

Islam has a system which applies to non-Muslims as part of it's political ideology, look up jizya. The highest court in a Muslim state is sharia which is an Islamic system. Again demonstrating you do not know your religion beyond common memes.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Islam has a system which applies to non-Muslims as part of it's political ideology, look up jizya. The highest court in a Muslim state is sharia which is an Islamic sytem Again demonstrating you do not know your religion beyond common memes.


So by the same logic, if we muslims live in Canada, we should not pay taxes?

Please do stay on topic. I don't want to discuss Islam on a thread which was not meant for that.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
So by the same logic, if we muslims live in Canada, we should not pay taxes?

Canada does not have a specific tax for people of a certain belief system. There is not Christian nor Muslim tax nor is Canada under the laws of Christianity. While my example is of a religion, Islam, expecting non-Muslims to follow it's religious standard of the state since Islam has a political ideology. There is a difference. Islam discriminates against non-Muslims while a secular nation treats all people of various religions that same for taxes.

Please do stay on topic. I don't want to discuss Islam on a thread which was not meant for that.

You took offense that some Muslims do not conform to your views of Islam. Nice try at backpedaling. Read your first reply on this thread again. You contradict yourself. Read the OP....
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Canada does not have a specific tax for people of a certain believe. There is not Christian nor Muslim tax nor is Canada under the laws of Christianity. While my example is of a relgion, Islam, expecting non-Muslims to follow it's religious standard. There is a difference. Islam discrinimnates against non-Muslims while a secular nation treats all people of various religions that same.

Than Islam is superior to Canada. Islam takes Jizya from non muslims and Zakat from muslims. Zakat is more than Jizya. So Islam take from muslims more than they take from non muslims.


You took offense that some Muslims do not conform to your views of Islam. Nice try at backpedaling. Read your first reply on this thread again. You contradict yourself

I didn't take offense, I was clarifying things. Clarifying what Islam is.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I didn't take offense, I was clarifying things. Clarifying what Islam is.

What your version of Islam is. However if you actually studied your religion and it's history you would realize it has been in flux for centuries. There is Sufism, Salafism, etc. Again demonstrating you only know common memes of your religion, nothing more.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
What your version of Islam is. However if you actually studied your religion and it's history you would realize it has been in flux for centuries. There is Sufism, Salafism, etc. Again demonstrating you only know common memes of your religion, nothing more.

Whatever group of Islam you are referring to, all should be following Quraan and the teaching of the prophet. All of which share that view on the discussed topic.

Please don't run into conclusions next time.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Whatever group of Islam you are referring to, all should be following Quraan and the teaching of the prophet. All of which share that view on the discussed topic.

Except they very obviously don't all share that view on homosexuality, hence those Muslims out there who are pro-LGBT rights.

In fact, all those types of Islam which aren't LGBT-affirming, aren't inclusivist or are misogynist have no place in today's society, because they cause suffering, violence and ignorance.

You can say 'All Muslims who follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah etc will believe exactly as I do', but since when are you the ultimate authority on Islam, and what the correct interpretation is? How are you more capable of reading the Qur'an than a Muslim who stands up for marriage equality? As far as I am aware, Islam teaches that Muhammad was the Final Messenger. That means that you cannot be one, and ergo are fallible as regards the word and teachings of God.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't try to do anything. If I were living in U.S and had to raise my children where someday they will ask me why is that man kissing the other man in the street, than I will travel to somewhere else.
That is indeed an important matter, and I believe it to be a huge part of the reason why people are bothered by same sex marriage.

It is not so much because they oppose the marriage itself as because they are bothered by having to deal with its social consequences. In that respect it is a lot like interfaith or inter-ethnic marriage in that people feel pressured into roles that they are just not confortable with, or in some more extreme cases find all-out immoral.

Here in "the West" waiting a few decades will go a long way towards solving that, but ultimately the best actual solution is to build bridges and reach understandings with those who fear those changes. For all that I disapprove of their stances, the fear is almost always very genuine.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Whatever group of Islam you are referring to, all should be following Quraan and the teaching of the prophet. All of which share that view on the discussed topic.

Please don't run into conclusions next time.

It is literalism and tradition of certain scholars which is cause the Islamic world to stagnate and prevent real changes within it's societies.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Except they very obviously don't all share that view on homosexuality, hence those Muslims out there who are pro-LGBT rights.

In fact, all those types of Islam which aren't LGBT-affirming, aren't inclusivist or are misogynist have no place in today's society, because they cause suffering, violence and ignorance.

You can say 'All Muslims who follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah etc will believe exactly as I do', but since when are you the ultimate authority on Islam, and what the correct interpretation is? How are you more capable of reading the Qur'an than a Muslim who stands up for marriage equality? As far as I am aware, Islam teaches that Muhammad was the Final Messenger. That means that you cannot be one, and ergo are fallible as regards the word and teachings of God.



7:80 And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?

81 Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

82 But the answer of his people was only that they said, "Evict them from your city! Indeed, they are men who keep themselves pure."

83 So We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who remained [with the evildoers].

84 And We rained upon them a rain [of stones]. Then see how was the end of the criminals.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
7:80 And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?

81 Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

82 But the answer of his people was only that they said, "Evict them from your city! Indeed, they are men who keep themselves pure."

83 So We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who remained [with the evildoers].

84 And We rained upon them a rain [of stones]. Then see how was the end of the criminals.

But there are Muslims who are LGBT-affirming.
 
Islam Law is God Law........

And God Law will never change for eternity.....

Became gay is not sin but gay sex & gay marriage is big sin........

Gay Marriage same with thief,adultery & murder very wrong & forbidden......

But you have free choice, you accept or not is up to you............hell or heaven is your choice
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Islam Law is God Law........

And God Law will never change for eternity.....

Became gay is not sin but gay sex & gay marriage is big sin........

Gay Marriage same with thief,adultery & murder very wrong & forbidden......

But you have free choice, you accept or not is up to you............hell or heaven is your choice

Belief would be a better term to use.

Contrary to the impressions of some, it's not that all people basically accept Islam but just choose to defy it and go against it. Many people absolutely do not believe in any, or most, of its claims.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
But there are Muslims who are LGBT-affirming.

You were asking on what basis I am making my statement. And I showed the reference.

Islam is always better understood from the sources rather than actions or sayings of people. I think no one can argue that Islam is based on the final revelation of God, the Quraan, and that Muhammad peace be upon him is the final messenger.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
You were asking on what basis I am making my statement. And I showed the reference.

Islam is always better understood from the sources rather than actions or sayings of people. I think no one can argue that Islam is based on the final revelation of God, the Quraan, and that Muhammad peace be upon him is the final messenger.

As the sources are interpreted so widely, I would disagree.

Also, I would certainly argue that Islam is not based on the Final Revelation of God. Being a kufr, this is to be expected.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
As the sources are interpreted so widely, I would disagree.

Also, I would certainly argue that Islam is not based on the Final Revelation of God. Being a kufr, this is to be expected.

I would say the verses quoted are explicit in their meanings. And I disagree with you, Quraan being the final revelation received by the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him are the essence of Islam.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I would say the verses quoted are explicit in their meanings.

I'm sure you would. And yes, they seem so. But there are Muslims who draw different conclusions. So what's up? There are Islamic scholars, imams, Islamic organisations...

And I disagree with you, Quraan being the final revelation received by the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him are the essence of Islam.

Oh, yes. I agree the Quran is at the centre of Islam. I misunderstood.
 
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