Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL! And we are talking about what they ACTUALLY did!
The held and bred REAL SLAVES.
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Judaism and slavery
- Thread starter CMike
- Start date
LOL! And we are talking about what they ACTUALLY did!
The held and bred REAL SLAVES.
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CMike
Well-Known Member
It seems you are going to believe what you want to believe no matter what the reality was.
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
Really? And you believe this because...?
Am I to presume that you did not understand my last post to which you are responding?
Which part was unclear for you?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Tanakh says so.
So do historical documents.
You can't will this away, - and I'm not sure why you are trying to, - as it was in the past, - just as American slavery, - and is obviously not a black-mark on you, or other modern Jews.
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CMike
Well-Known Member
Not quite. You say so. That doesn't make it true.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL! You guys are hilarious!
You have been shown the Texts.
You have been pointed to an article on the subject - that has been sourced - so you can look the info up.
And you still say nanner-nanner isn't so.
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Moishe3rd
Yehudi
I would be sincerely fascinated if you could point me to historical documents that show some details regarding Jews "owning" slaves 2,000 years or more years ago. I have never heard of such a thing.
However, as I noted earlier - I don't think that "Tanakh" means the same thing to you as it does to me.
Do you not want to answer the question I asked regarding the Torah, belief, and history?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I didn't say the historical slave documents were 2000 years old - other then your holy book of course.
They continued in the slave trade for a long-long time, - and there are documents.
Read it.
As to the other - a Jewish member here asked us to use Tanakh rather then Old Testament.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
As far as I can understand, you are discussing what the Jews who are described in the Torah and Tanach believed, no?
Those are the passages from what you are quoting.
What you appear to be debating is whether or not these Jews as described in the Torah and Tanach owned and traded in slaves as you are describing.
If you are discussing whether or not some ethnic Jews were involved in the slave trade throughout history then, I have no argument whatsoever. Jews were involved in just about everything in history.
I am discussing whether or not the Torah allowed slavery as you appear to be describing it.
It did not.
Nor does the Tanach allow slavery as you appear to be describing it.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
What link, didn't see one.
Sold for ransom: On the trail of Thailand's human traffickers - BBC News Its very impractical to run human trafficking operations if the community doesn't support you. As demonstrated in modern Thailand, its the locals who really enable the traffickers. This is true of both labor traffic and sexual traffic. In many places its the families who sell their own daughters into the sex trade, and if they escape they are sent back. Traffickers pay locals to look the other way, ply them with drugs, money and whatever works.
Here in practical terms is the reason why in Torah there is specifically a law to help slaves escaping from your own neighbors. Its escaping slaves that make human trafficking unprofitable. If slaves can leave then there is no profit in paying for them. The law to assist escaping slaves represents an amazing innovation in law which benefits many people today.
Here in practical terms is the reason why in Torah there is specifically a law to help slaves escaping from your own neighbors. Its escaping slaves that make human trafficking unprofitable. If slaves can leave then there is no profit in paying for them. The law to assist escaping slaves represents an amazing innovation in law which benefits many people today.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Except that it only applies to Hebrew indentured servants, not to actual slaves, which they could breed to create more slaves, and pass on as an inheritance, etc. Nor to sex slaves, such as concubines, or raped and held war prisoners, etc.
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In my opinion its just another way of saying "Once a Jew, always a Jew." This Torah law is probably discussing the basis of conversion, and there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Even today Jews everywhere still are slaves escaped from mystical Egypt, and every year they celebrate it. Once someone converts to Judaism their fellows Jews just never give up and always expect them to come back, because they have become indentured servants. That is just technical terminology however for what we today would call conversion, though in the ancient times it was probably more like immigration.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
The Hebrew had actual slavery just like the surrounding nations. They held young women as sex slaves - concubines, and females they liked from the war prisoners, etc. They could breed these slaves for more slaves, and pass them on as an inheritance to their children forever.
The verse you referred to, is about the Hebrew not returning escaped HEBREW slaves. They could care less about all other people whom their law said they could actually own as slaves.
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That is an interpretation based upon what? Its based upon an assumption that the Israelites 'Must have been' like the nations around them, but your assumption is based upon your own proposition that they must have done so & so. There is actually not a basis for you to say that they were like the nations around them. More than likely these were escaped slaves of some sort who began enabling other escaped slaves, but I cannot say without doubt it is the case. They lived in the hills where they were harder to catch and there are various other reasons to think so. If you want a tidy history theory that provides an explanation that is the best one, but we aren't talking about provable things. Reading the Torah this culture was clearly against slavery not in favor of it; and the culture that survives today emulates the 'Indentured service' aspect of the Torah through conversion. 'Once a Jew always a Jew' is still being said. Therefore the most likely function of the law for any slave who chooses to be in the family forever has to do with conversion. He or she became Jewish, leaving the lower class, the alien class.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
No mistake at all. The Hebrew Laws said they could own SLAVES from the other nations, forever, and breed them, and pass them on as an inheritance. We read about their concubines. - What is a concubine? A bought, or given, SEX SLAVE. We also have a verse telling us they can take war prisoners they find attractive.
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Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And you shall take them for inheritance to your sons after you, to hold for a possession; you may enslave them forever. But on your brothers, the sons of Israel, one over another, you shall not rule over him with severity.
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Exo 21:4 If his master have given him a woman, and she have born him sons or daughters; the woman and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. (Breeding of slave to pass on.)
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Lev 22:10 There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Lev 22:11 But if the priest buy any person with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.
Note that in 22:10 they have a hired servant – a sakiyr.
In 20:11 it is a bought slave.
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Deut 21:10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives,
Deu 21:11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy woman;
Deu 21:12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
Deut 21:13 and shall remove the clothing of her captivity from her, and shall live in your house, and shall morn for her father and her mother a month of days. And afterward shall go into her as master, making her your woman. (slavery, rape)
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They were allowed to rape a woman once after the battle, - even the priests! = RAPE! We have writings discussing such.
"In the Talmud Bavli 12 we see in Kiddushin 21b the general agreement that a soldier is allowed one act of intercourse with a captive, but not on the battlefield. Another opinion is also mentioned by the jews: "..it seems to Rabbenu Tam 13 that a first cohabitation is permitted in war.."
Maimonides (1195a: 5:8:4): "A priest is permitted to have relations with a captive woman once, for permission to have relations with a captive woman is a concession to man's evil impulse; but he is not permitted to marry her, because she is a proselyte."
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As to the return slave law you referred to - which is only concerning Hebrew slaves - not foreign -
Deu 23:15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:
Which is a VERY OBVIOUS misunderstanding of the text. Taken as is - it would mean total chaos! All slaves, indentured servants, concubines and other sex slaves, etc, - would just run next door and say I escaped from my master, - and demand to be set up as in verse 16. That is ridiculous! They never would have written such an illogical verse.
(Darby) Thou shalt not hand over to his master a bondman that hath escaped from his master unto thee:
Darby says this is a HEBREW BONDSMAN and it is talking to the HEBREW. He notes there actually is an "AS THEE" in there.
The law says it is ILLEGAL for a HEBREW bond holder to MISTREAT a HEBREW BONDSMAN. Therefore The HEBREW that the HEBREW BONDSMAN escaped to, can not LEGALLY return that HEBREW to that abuse he ran away from.
Nor obviously - hand a Hebrew slave back to a non Hebrew master.
It is not talking about slaves - but - Hebrew bondsmen.
As you can see they allowed real slavery - including sexual slavery.
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