Republican Presidential Candidate says Climate Change is real

Wirey · May 22, 2015

Guy Threepwood said:
like I said, money spent on ' environmental programs' rather than producing the energy itself, reduces efficiency and adds to the cost of energy production itself, which hurts competitiveness, hardly a controversial observation regardless of name calling

but personal insults are the most graceless form of conceding defeat, so that pretty much wraps this fascinating discussing up, see ya

First, that wasn't an insult. I hope you are making a few bucks. And second, environmental is what I do now, and if you knew how much money goes into your pocket because of me you'd apologize for that first post. It is actual nonsense. Money spent on environmental programs makes energy creation less wasteful, putting money ion all of our pockets. Did the environmental programs that led to your car going from 14 MPG to 40 MPG cost more than the raw volume of money consumers have saved on gas? Not even close. Thinking that making things work better, cleaner, and more efficiently is somehow a loss is outright silly and short sighted. Also, Republican talking point. The oil companies, and their shills, want people to believe that "Making my house stop blowing heat out into space is communism" so they can sell you more oil.

Shadow Wolf · May 22, 2015

Guy Threepwood said:
like I said, money spent on ' environmental programs' rather than producing the energy itself, reduces efficiency and adds to the cost of energy production itself, which hurts competitiveness, hardly a controversial observation regardless of name calling

but personal insults are the most graceless form of conceding defeat, so that pretty much wraps this fascinating discussing up, see ya

Unlike you, I like to breathe. And not just breathe, but breathe clean air. I also like drinking clean water. I would also like life on earth to be around for thousands of more years.

Sultan Of Swing · May 22, 2015

metis said:
Yes. As a kid growing up near Detroit, I would go to Briggs Stadium to see the Tigers play, and yet I could not see the Stroh's bottling plant on some days, which was only a half-mile away. Now I can look down a major street near my home near where I live in the suburbs and see the Renaissance Center that's on the Detroit River almost any day of the week, and that's about 15 miles away.

In regards to actual climate change, does it make a difference?

Guy Threepwood · May 22, 2015

Sultan Of Swing said:
In regards to actual climate change, does it make a difference?

the climate can advance glaciers thousands of miles and melt them again without the help of a single SUV, including during the Ordovician ice age when CO2 levels were > 10 times higher than today

It could not care less about 1 or 2 extra molecules CO2 in 10,000 of air.. any more than it cared about any other sacrifices humans have made to the weather Gods since the dawn of civilization.

Shadow Wolf · May 22, 2015

Guy Threepwood said:
the climate can advance glaciers thousands of miles and melt them again without the help of a single SUV, including during the Ordovician ice age when CO2 levels were > 10 times higher than today

It could not care less about 1 or 2 extra molecules CO2 in 10,000 of air.. any more than it cared about any other sacrifices humans have made to the weather Gods since the dawn of civilization.

If the environment doesn't care, then why does America no longer have a smog problem while parts of China are being devastated by it? If it doesn't matter, why is the warming happening sooner than what the cycles have been in the past?

metis · May 22, 2015

Sultan Of Swing said:
In regards to actual climate change, does it make a difference?

Pollution does have some effect on weather, but the gist of your question is valid, namely that there certainly are more serious causes behind climate change, especially much higher levels of both carbon dioxide and methane gas than in previous centuries. Some research scientists actually do list these higher levels of both as being "pollutants", btw. It's sorta like pretty yellow "flowers" that are flowers in my flower beds but weeds in my lawn.

metis · May 22, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
If the environment doesn't care, then why does America no longer have a smog problem while parts of China are being devastated by it? If it doesn't matter, why is the warming happening sooner than what the cycles have been in the past?

China is actually spending more time and money on developing "green" than the U.S. or any other country. Yes, some is for the international market, but some is also because they want to be able to breathe in the future. My oldest daughter was in Beijing about three years ago and she said the pollution was absolutely terrible.

Guy Threepwood · May 22, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
If the environment doesn't care, then why does America no longer have a smog problem while parts of China are being devastated by it? If it doesn't matter, why is the warming happening sooner than what the cycles have been in the past?

I think we have some real environmental problems worry about, but CO2/warming isn't one of them,

The only thing that comes close to an accurate measurement of global temps, is the satellite record going back to '79- the current anomaly stands at + .07 and was negative as recently as 2012-
the highest temp being 16 years ago. even in the IPCC the debate is more about why the warming stopped. why all the models were so wrong (as if we couldn't guess)

consider that since the GH effect is a form of insulation, any increased temps as tiny as may be- would show up overwhelmingly at night, in high latitudes, it's not something anybody is ever going to be able to detect amongst the noise of natural climate variation that will always overwhelm our tiny added trace of CO2. The worst thing that could happen would be another ice age, there's very little we can do to stop that

Revoltingest · May 22, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
Or primary. It doesn't matter as both are equally valid.

As long as it's worth doing for reasons other than climate change mitigation, I'm on board!

Revoltingest · May 22, 2015

Guy Threepwood said:
I think the most tangible benefits would come from concentrating on energy production that is most sustainable and green,
i.e. production that can be sustained at night with no wind.. sustain itself economically- and then some- subsidy free, and as a bonus, even replenish the stuff that actually makes Earth green..

This is the right direction. The trick is to have public policy incentives which are cost effective, unlike the ethanol debacle.

The only problem is, that if we ever found such a miracle energy source just laying around in vast quantities, politicians would either take the industries over or denounce them as evil to skim profits.

It doesn't work this way.
How do I know this for certain?
Any great technology developed here can be done elsewhere, where our politicians have no such power to stop it. If it's really all that great, it would inexorably migrate here. This reasoning is proof that other conspiracies are invalid, eg, the engine which burns water, anti-gravity machines.

Guy Threepwood · May 22, 2015

Revoltingest said:
This is the right direction. The trick is to have public policy incentives which are cost effective, unlike the ethanol debacle.

It doesn't work this way.
How do I know this for certain?
Any great technology developed here can be done elsewhere, where our politicians have no such power to stop it. If it's really all that great, it would inexorably migrate here. This reasoning is proof that other conspiracies are invalid, eg, the engine which burns water, anti-gravity machines.

Agree on ethanol- this is a handy reference for ethanol free gas by state..

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

I frequent a local station that advertises 'we sell gas like a Baptist communion, alcohol free!' and it seems to be catching on since they raised the ethanol levels in MI and stopped requiring it to be posted at the pump..

And this is the miracle energy source I'm referring to - the one we already have proven, which fueled the original green revolution, revolutionized standards of living, ready to be extracted- God given if you will.

Shadow Wolf · May 22, 2015

So which candidate acknowledged climate change is real?

tytlyf · May 23, 2015

Guy Threepwood said:
the climate can advance glaciers thousands of miles and melt them again without the help of a single SUV, including during the Ordovician ice age when CO2 levels were > 10 times higher than today

True, climate has changed over time. But thanks to human reasons, it's changing much much faster than normal. There was no life, plants, etc back when the CO2 was higher when you mentioned.

It could not care less about 1 or 2 extra molecules CO2 in 10,000 of air.. any more than it cared about any other sacrifices humans have made to the weather Gods since the dawn of civilization.

You don't have to care, but CO2 is already a very tiny fraction of the atomosphere and the amount has doubled the last 100 years. The point is, tiny fractions make big differences. I'm not climate expert, we have thousands of scientists across the world who are experts in the field. I will go with their overwhelming consensus on this. You can rely on whoever is telling you otherwise.

Mercy Not Sacrifice · May 27, 2015

Nakosis said:
Impact on climate change or getting elected?
Don't think there is much we can do about climate change anyway except adapt.

Ugh. I can't stand this new line from the Right. "We should just adapt to climate change"...ha! Ask the good people of California, or southern Louisiana, who are experiencing but a taste of climate change as we speak.

How about this. Let the world sink into chaos, let your house sink into the ocean, and then get back to me about this "adapting to catastrophic climate change" crap.

Nakosis · May 27, 2015

Mercy Not Sacrifice said:
Ugh. I can't stand this new line from the Right. "We should just adapt to climate change"...ha! Ask the good people of California, or southern Louisiana, who are experiencing but a taste of climate change as we speak.

How about this. Let the world sink into chaos, let your house sink into the ocean, and then get back to me about this "adapting to catastrophic climate change" crap.

So what's the plan. Where's the solution. There is none really. We can barely predict the weather let alone control it. There no choice except to adapt. The climate has been changing throughout the history of the earth. Is there anyone out their thinking they can stop it?

Nakosis · May 27, 2015

Revoltingest said:
Global warming is a very different issue from the ones in the cartoon.
We can cut our carbon footprint many fold, but other countries will do what they will.
I place a higher priority on the listed items because they have immediate effect (relatively), & will secondarily mitigate AGW.

Yes there are other reasons. But none of this is going to stop global warming. The only way to do that is to remove humans from the equation.

Mercy Not Sacrifice · May 27, 2015

Nakosis said:
So what's the plan. Where's the solution. There is none really.

That is a bald-faced lie, and I refuse to fall for it. There are multitudes of solutions out there, but some humans choose not to use them.

And we don't have time, either. We don't have time for the 1% to get on board with saving the one planet we have.

We can barely predict the weather let alone control it. There no choice except to adapt. The climate has been changing throughout the history of the earth. Is there anyone out their thinking they can stop it?

God I despise this kind of mindset. OK first of all, stop misusing the "climate is always changing" line. Go learn what the differential variable dT/dt means, where T is temperature and t is time, and then get back to me if it's anywhere near constant when plotted back in time. (Hint: It isn't.) And second, you wanna "adapt," then fine. Go live in a place where islands disappear. Or where rain stops and may never come back. Etc., etc., etc. Your dismissive attitude is grossly unhelpful.

Oh, and we can't predict the weather? Wow, man, you have been watching way to much Faux News or something...

Revoltingest · May 27, 2015

Nakosis said:
Yes there are other reasons. But none of this is going to stop global warming. The only way to do that is to remove humans from the equation.

I'm in favor of reducing the human footprint.
Alas, few are interested in addressing this.

Nakosis · May 27, 2015

Revoltingest said:
I'm in favor of reducing the human footprint.
Alas, few are interested in addressing this.

I apologize for having big feet.

I reduce my energy usage how I can because it saves me money, but I got to drive to work to support my family and I got to have my computer on.

Unless we kill off large portions of the populations, but that's going to take energy too.

I'm waiting/hoping science will get in gear and figure out how to scrub the CO2 out of the atmosphere and make something useful out of it.

Turning carbon dioxide emissions into useful chemicals and products | Guardian Sustainable Business | The Guardian

Nakosis · May 27, 2015

Mercy Not Sacrifice said:
That is a bald-faced lie, and I refuse to fall for it. There are multitudes of solutions out there, but some humans choose not to use them.

And we don't have time, either. We don't have time for the 1% to get on board with saving the one planet we have.

So get busy. You can start by turning off your computer to save energy. Otherwise what is your workable plan? What can you do to stop global warming? I'm listening.

God I despise this kind of mindset. OK first of all, stop misusing the "climate is always changing" line. Go learn what the differential variable dT/dt means, where T is temperature and t is time, and then get back to me if it's anywhere near constant when plotted back in time. (Hint: It isn't.) And second, you wanna "adapt," then fine. Go live in a place where islands disappear. Or where rain stops and may never come back. Etc., etc., etc. Your dismissive attitude is grossly unhelpful.

Ok, you despise the mindset of survival. Adaptation means survival.
And what are you doing that is so helpful? Hopefully more than complaining about everyone else with the wrong attitude.

Oh, and we can't predict the weather? Wow, man, you have been watching way to much Faux News or something...

Tell me when it is going to rain in California. They can't seem to figure that one out.

Republican Presidential Candidate says Climate Change is real

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