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Hey! Yo diests. I have a question.

T

Tyho

Member
Carlita said:
Why call it anything? If I were a diest and said "God exists" I am referring to something or someone outside of creation-the universe.

If God, to a diest, is the universe, thats pantheism.
Click to expand...

Because the theological position of pandeism (which is only one branch of Deism BTW) is that a Metaphysical Progenitor (God) became the Universe. Pandeism attempts to explain why a Deity would set forth a Universe and then leave it without furter interventions. If the Creator became the Universe, to share in the experience of existence, to become the unconscious sustainment for our physical reality, than the world can be understood rationally by it's natural laws. There is no need for the antropomorphic God of the scriptures or any religious doctrines promising eternal reward or eternal punishements since we are of our Creator in a fragmentary sense, wafting in the winds of this unconscious sutainement.

Pandeism And The Afterlife:
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What about deism? Im not following how it differs from pantheism or an external creator who does not associate with the universe?

Please describe God of deism, if he is not the universe (pantheism) or force behind it (a collection of many pagan and pagan like faiths) "a part from" abrahamic definitions of the word?

Tyho said:
Because the theological position of pandeism (which is only one branch of Deism BTW) is that a Metaphysical Progenitor (God) became the Universe. Pandeism attempts to explain why a Deity would set forth a Universe and then leave it without furter interventions. If the Creator became the Universe, to share in the experience of existence, to become the unconscious sustainment for our physical reality, than the world can be understood rationally by it's natural laws. There is no need for the antropomorphic God of the scriptures or any religious doctrines promising eternal reward or eternal punishements since we are of our Creator in a fragmentary sense, wafting in the winds of this unconscious sutainement.

Pandeism And The Afterlife:
Click to expand...
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Carlita said:
What about deism? Im not following how it differs from pantheism or an external creator who does not associate with the universe?

Please describe God of deism, if he is not the universe (pantheism) or force behind it (a collection of many pagan and pagan like faiths) "a part from" abrahamic definitions of the word?
Click to expand...

You are still trying to add things to deism that just are not there. Deism is not a religion. There is no description of God beyond what we can glean about creation. Which is not all that much as yet.
Although there are a few things. Humans tend to think in terms of "beginnings and ends" and hierarchy. Creation appears to operate in cycles and transformation, which is very different. Simple, intuitive, concepts like "exists" stop being as useful when you realize that. The heavy elements that your body is composed of were created in a collapsing star. Does that star still exist? Sort of.

Here is a metaphor I use sometimes. Traditional Abrahamic religions posit a God image based on human kings with omnimax superpowers. I posit a God image more like gravity. You can study and describe the effects, but you can't describe gravity itself. It is perfect, eternal, and changeless, but it doesn't care about anything or have anything like sapience.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying gravity is a deity. It is a metaphor for a God image such as I have.
Tom
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
This is what I read on definition of deism:

[Diesm] is the belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.

Is this correct?
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I might not be best person to get a formal education about deism from. I came to my beliefs before realizing that there is a word for them. I really don't care what other people who consider themselves deist think. It's OK with me if they believe something I don't, because deism isn't a religion.
Tom
 
Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Deism is simply the belief that God exists because of observations in nature. That's it, nothing more. It differs from atheism on the sole principle of the belief in God the creator.

Now, to define what is meant by observations in nature, allow me to dive into this. Deists believe that the universe is too complex and that life is too "perfect" to be random. By perfection, let me cite some examples found in earthbound biology:

1. Birds' bones are hollow to allow for flight.
2. Chameleons change color to match their surroundings for camouflage.
3. Carnivores have sharp teeth and stronger stomach acids with shorter intestines. This is needed for the tearing and digestion of meat.
4. Herbivores have flat teeth, weaker stomach acids and longer intestines. This is needed for the chewing and digestion of plants.
5. What exactly gives eyeballs the ability to see? Think about it for a minute and see if you can explain it.
6. The human body's temperature goes up (fever) in order to fight foreign substances (bacteria, viruses), as a natural defense mechanism.
7. Humans are born with a sense of right from wrong. Why?

These are but just a few of millions of natural observations. Do you really believe these are random developments over the course of time? Why is that carbon found in rocks is non-living but carbon found in plants and animals is living? Carbon is carbon, right?

Deists believe in the concept of God the creator, as a way to explain the how's and why's behind nature's perfection and complexity. Nature appears to act and react by design, not by random chance.

Now, as to intervention by God, miracles, etc., each deist is free to think and believe whatever they want. Deism is not a religion. There is no deist church, deist bible, or deist hierarchy. Any article you read about deism (wikipedia or otherwise), you have to remember that it was written by a person, and that person will have opinions and preconceived notions. Nothing about deism is absolute other than the belief in God the creator.

You might see some people on youtube claiming to be a deist, but then they give themselves a title such as "Senior Mentor" or some such. That is nothing more than an individual trying to toot their own horn and feel important. People like labels.

If anything, deism is simply a spiritual philosophy.
 
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Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Praetorian said:
Deism is simply the belief that God exists because of observations in nature. That's it, nothing more. It differs from atheism on the sole principle of the belief in God the creator.

Now, to define what is meant by observations in nature, allow me to dive into this. Deists believe that the universe is too complex and that life is too "perfect" to be random. By perfection, let me cite some examples found in earthbound biology:

1. Birds' bones are hollow to allow for flight.
2. Chameleons change color to match their surroundings for camouflage.
3. Carnivores have sharp teeth and stronger stomach acids with shorter intestines. This is needed for the tearing and digestion of meat.
4. Herbivores have flat teeth, weaker stomach acids and longer intestines. This is needed for the chewing and digestion of plants.
5. What exactly gives eyeballs the ability to see? Think about it for a minute and see if you can explain it.
6. The human body's temperature goes up (fever) in order to fight foreign substances (bacteria, viruses), as a natural defense mechanism.
7. Humans are born with a sense of right from wrong. Why?

These are but just a few of millions of natural observations. Do you really believe these are random developments over the course of time? Why is that carbon found in rocks is non-living but carbon found in plants and animals is living? Carbon is carbon, right?

Deists believe in the concept of God the creator, as a way to explain the how's and why's behind nature's perfection and complexity. Nature appears to act and react by design, not by random chance.

Now, as to intervention by God, miracles, etc., each deist is free to think and believe whatever they want. Deism is not a religion. There is no deist church, deist bible, or deist hierarchy. Any article you read about deism (wikipedia or otherwise), you have to remember that it was written by a person, and that person will have opinions and preconceived notions. Nothing about deism is absolute other than the belief in God the creator.

You might see some people on youtube claiming to be a deist, but then they give themselves a title such as "Senior Mentor" or some such. That is nothing more than an individual trying to toot their own horn and feel important. People like labels.

If anything, deism is simply a spiritual philosophy.
Click to expand...

To expand slightly further, although deism and theism both believe in God, deism differs from theism because classical deism holds to the idea that God does not intervene with humans. It accepts free will and because of it, whatever choices are made we suffer the consequences of our actions, or the actions of others. God does not save you, help you, or protect you. He has a hands off approach. Theism is different because theists typically believe in divine intervention and miracles. Between the two, deism seems more logical given the status of the world today. Why do bad things happen to good people? Because someone else made a free will choice to do something bad, and God did not intervene to stop it.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Praetorian said:
To expand slightly further, although deism and theism both believe in God, deism differs from theism because classical deism holds to the idea that God does not intervene with humans. It accepts free will and because of it, whatever choices are made we suffer the consequences of our actions, or the actions of others. God does not save you, help you, or protect you. He has a hands off approach. Theism is different because theists typically believe in divine intervention and miracles. Between the two, deism seems more logical given the status of the world today. Why do bad things happen to good people? Because someone else made a free will choice to do something bad, and God did not intervene to stop it.
Click to expand...

No disrespect but more seeing this atheisticly. How can and deist have a more logical approach to God. God, in himself, is to an atheist illogical. Deism seems like theism that denies the "extra" that comes with it.

That extra is a part of God. Its why all theist believe in God and attach to God because of the things he did or she or how she makes up the earth in which we live.

If deism is a logical approach to believing I God, can you define their view point of whats logical of a supernatural being compares to theist claims, which is the same, but with the extra stuff?
 
Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Carlita said:
No disrespect but more seeing this atheisticly. How can and deist have a more logical approach to God. God, in himself, is to an atheist illogical. Deism seems like theism that denies the "extra" that comes with it.

That extra is a part of God. Its why all theist believe in God and attach to God because of the things he did or she or how she makes up the earth in which we live.

If deism is a logical approach to believing I God, can you define their view point of whats logical of a supernatural being compares to theist claims, which is the same, but with the extra stuff?
Click to expand...

Deism: belief in God.
Atheism: no belief in God.

That is the difference between deism and atheism.

As for deism vs. theism, God created the universe, the laws of nature that govern it, and set everything in motion. There is no need for a hands on approach. God also created living beings with free will. We make our own choices and take the consequences, good or bad, that come with those choices. Where a theist believes that God intervenes, they are stumped when asked "why do bad things happen to good people"? Their usual answer is something along the lines of "its God's will, we can't see the bigger picture, everything happens for a reason, etc." Those are all rehearsed, cop out answers because they can't explain it. If God controls everything as many theists believe, then God is at fault for every murder, rape, theft, natural disaster, terrorist act, etc. It is at this point that the theist will try and put a spin on it to take the blame off of God. They want it both ways...God is in charge, but only for the good stuff. The devil causes the bad stuff to happen! Of course, the moment they go down this road, they are saying that God is NOT in control and that the devil has power to do whatever he wants, outside of God's authority. Thus the web gets bigger and deeper. Sigh.

A deist can easily explain that same question with free will. "Why do bad things happen to good people? Because someone chose to do something bad, plain and simple." We are responsible for our actions. That is the logic of deism. We typically do not believe in supernatural boogiemen (devil, demons, etc.), and view God as an omnipotent being that is not bound by any law, doctrine or system of belief. God is God, and answers to no one. He is transcendent. As the creator, if there was a devil or demons, He could simply snap His divine fingers and un-create them.

Every single document ever written about God, regardless of religion, was written by the hands of humans and includes their biases, preconceived notions, superstitions, cultural beliefs, and mythologies. They can claim divine inspiration all they want to, but they can't prove divine inspiration. Deism is a simplistic, logical approach to the belief in God without all the man made drivel that is recorded in "holy books."

Deism also has no problem with science. We encourage scientific discovery and advancement. God gave us intelligence and we SHOULD be using it. We are not stuck in the Stone Age, Bronze Age, or Dark Age (yet people cling to beliefs from those ages). We lost over 700 years of scientific advancement during the Dark Ages because of the Church and its persecution of science. Imagine where we would be today had that not happened! 700 years into the future...
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Thank you for that excellect discription.

I have two more questions for you. Does deism's God characteristics depend on the rejection of theist characteristics of God or is the deist God unique on its own? Also, is the deist God an external God or is "it" an noun/word to describe the natural rather than divine creation of the universe?

Thanks!

Praetorian said:
Deism: belief in God.
Atheism: no belief in God.

That is the difference between deism and atheism.

As for deism vs. theism, God created the universe, the laws of nature that govern it, and set everything in motion. There is no need for a hands on approach. God also created living beings with free will. We make our own choices and take the consequences, good or bad, that come with those choices. Where a theist believes that God intervenes, they are stumped when asked "why do bad things happen to good people"? Their usual answer is something along the lines of "its God's will, we can't see the bigger picture, everything happens for a reason, etc." Those are all rehearsed, cop out answers because they can't explain it. If God controls everything as many theists believe, then God is at fault for every murder, rape, theft, natural disaster, terrorist act, etc. It is at this point that the theist will try and put a spin on it to take the blame off of God. They want it both ways...God is in charge, but only for the good stuff. The devil causes the bad stuff to happen! Of course, the moment they go down this road, they are saying that God is NOT in control and that the devil has power to do whatever he wants, outside of God's authority. Thus the web gets bigger and deeper. Sigh.

A deist can easily explain that same question with free will. "Why do bad things happen to good people? Because someone chose to do something bad, plain and simple." We are responsible for our actions. That is the logic of deism. We typically do not believe in supernatural boogiemen (devil, demons, etc.), and view God as an omnipotent being that is not bound by any law, doctrine or system of belief. God is God, and answers to no one. He is transcendent. As the creator, if there was a devil or demons, He could simply snap His divine fingers and un-create them.

Every single document ever written about God, regardless of religion, was written by the hands of humans and includes their biases, preconceived notions, superstitions, cultural beliefs, and mythologies. They can claim divine inspiration all they want to, but they can't prove divine inspiration. Deism is a simplistic, logical approach to the belief in God without all the man made drivel that is recorded in "holy books."

Deism also has no problem with science. We encourage scientific discovery and advancement. God gave us intelligence and we SHOULD be using it. We are not stuck in the Stone Age, Bronze Age, or Dark Age (yet people cling to beliefs from those ages). We lost over 700 years of scientific advancement during the Dark Ages because of the Church and its persecution of science. Imagine where we would be today had that not happened! 700 years into the future...
Click to expand...
O
 
Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Carlita said:
Thank you for that excellect discription.

I have two more questions for you. Does deism's God characteristics depend on the rejection of theist characteristics of God or is the deist God unique on its own?
Click to expand...

The thing about deism is that we don't try and describe God per se, because truth be told, no one really knows what God is like. All we can do, regardless of religion, is speculate. Deists use logic (because of A, we believe B to be true) in an effort to explain WHY things are the way they are and not so much trying to fit God into a human mold, complete with emotions, desires, curiosities, etc. Deists affirm that there is a God (higher power, supreme being...does not really matter what descriptors you use) but that is about the extent of it. Anything else would be a "best guess."

Carlita said:
Also, is the deist God an external God or is "it" an noun/word to describe the natural rather than divine creation of the universe?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Some deists will say that the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is the same being as the God deists believe in. I have no problems with that. We all affirm that God is real. Deism goes on to say that He/She/It is not exclusive to any particular religion, race of people, or region on earth.

Deists believe in the creation of the universe by God. As described earlier, He created everything, including the laws of nature (we call them science), and set it all in motion. We tend to reject the stories of Genesis (along with the rest of man made "divinely inspired" holy texts). From there, we do not know what God is off doing. Our "best guess" would only be speculation. What is important is that humans are born with the knowledge of right from wrong, and that we should try to live good lives based on the morals that are with us from birth.

Wars have been fought in the name of religion. Murder has been carried out in its name. People have been burned at the stake or had their heads chopped off because of it. People that go to such extremes to try and prove or force their religious views on others simply do not get it. The Church uses fear and guilt trips to try and maintain its power and influence (as well as deep pockets) over people. The concept of hell is the perfect example.

Can I, as a deist, prove that what I say about God is true and absolute? Of course not! No religion can. But at least my beliefs, as a deist, make far more sense to me as an intelligent being versus the alternatives that seem to dive into fairy tale land.
 
ThePainefulTruth

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Carlita said:
Thank you for that excellect discription.

I have two more questions for you. Does deism's God characteristics depend on the rejection of theist characteristics of God or is the deist God unique on its own? Also, is the deist God an external God or is "it" an noun/word to describe the natural rather than divine creation of the universe?
Click to expand...

Religion and philosophy came into being, in part at least, to explain the origin of the universe and why things happen like they do. All religions I know of, even Buddhism, claim some sort of spiritual revelation. Deism denies that, because so f far, all revelation is based on nothing but hearsay.

The only two rational, reasonable positions that address the question of how the universe came to be, is deism and atheism--there being no difference between the two, from our standpoint in this life, except for hope. I believe that God created the universe so that there would be no evidence for or against God's existence. The sole purpose of the natural, rational universe is as a stage on which we can exercise our free will, free from divine influence, which includes knowledge of God's existence. But there's no evidence for or against that. That in itself is kind of suspicious, since you'd expect there to be something from "before" the Big Bang--but you can't use a lack of evidence....as evidence. :)
 
Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
ThePainefulTruth said:
...all revelation is based on nothing but hearsay.
Click to expand...

So true.

This especially resonates with me because I am in law enforcement as a CSI, and hearsay is not allowed in court. Because of my career, I have re-evaluated how I read and study religious texts, and use a higher degree of critical thinking when looking at what is written. The entire gospels of the Bible, for example, are all hearsay, as they were written by 3rd parties who heard the stories from supposed eyewitnesses. That also explains why the resurrection story differs so greatly between the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. No eyewitness actually recorded the event.
 
ThePainefulTruth

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
The Deist said:
So true.

This especially resonates with me because I am in law enforcement as a CSI, and hearsay is not allowed in court. Because of my career, I have re-evaluated how I read and study religious texts, and use a higher degree of critical thinking when looking at what is written. The entire gospels of the Bible, for example, are all hearsay, as they were written by 3rd parties who heard the stories from supposed eyewitnesses. That also explains why the resurrection story differs so greatly between the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. No eyewitness actually recorded the event.
Click to expand...

Yeah, science is reason's best recruiter. And I know whenever I read, "Thus sayeth the Lord", it most likely means it's 2-3000 year old hearsay about when somebody put words in God's mouth back when science was just a gleam in God's eye.
 
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