Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

Poisonshady313 said:

It says I care about the health and safety of people.

Your beliefs about vaccination are dangerous. You are free to have your beliefs. I just hope and pray that you never have the power to influence anyone's decision regarding their own children. Because whatever harm comes to them or others as a result of not vaccinating, you will be partially responsible for it.

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I have actually seen that happen. I have been a member of a board which caters to military spouses for many years now. It has it's share of "crunchy" spouses: breast feeding only crusaders, anti circumcision warriors, and vaccine deniers. I watched that small group of (mostly) women convince a new mother not to vaccinate her child, saying any of the preventable diseases would be less harmful to the child than the potential side effects from the vaccine. Then I watched in abject horror as her infant caught whooping cough and nearly died, prompting hourly panicked mom posts, and no matter what she said she could not get any kind of response from these people or word of comfort. It was disgusting.

Pegg said:

No i dont. I think the first step to defeating disease is with a strong immune system.

I think its worse to demand that everyone hold the same view as you and do what you think they should do because its what you want. If you want to be vaccinated then you are welcome to it and no one has the right to demand you not do it because they dont want to do it.

Yet that is the stance that many are taking. "I want it so you have to have it too"

That doesnt wash with me.

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I don't give a crap what you think of just about anything, vaccines included. What I care about is that your arrogant and reckless decisions don't affect anyone else. You wanna drive your car off a cliff? Fine. Make sure there's no one else in the car or on the road or at the bottom. You can't choose not to take vaccines and not affect anyone else.



Measles | Cases and Outbreaks | CDC

Where there is a danger of you or your children spreading a disease to others, vaccination should always trump your religious beliefs.

psychoslice said:

I don't know about killing of the populace,

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Are you confused?
YOU are the one comparing it to the Holocaust....

Pegg said:

I think its worse to demand that everyone hold the same view as you and do what you think they should do because its what you want.

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Is it wrong that I expect people to not drive while drunk, and that I expect consequences to happen if someone does drive while drunk? Is it wrong that I expect people to not pollute water and air supplies, and expect consequences for doing so?

InChrist said:

By Dr. Mercola

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InChrist said:

Basics of the Human Immune System Prior to Introduction of Vaccines: Are Vaccines Turning Our Children’s Immune Systems Inside Out? Part 2 | International Medical Council on Vaccination.

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I noticed that in both of those articles you cannot click on the author(s) name to read their credentials. They both come from biased sources. The first one looks more like an advertisement. The second one was coauthored with someone who is not a doctor.

Marisa said:

I don't give a crap what you think of just about anything, vaccines included. What I care about is that your arrogant and reckless decisions don't affect anyone else. You wanna drive your car off a cliff? Fine. Make sure there's no one else in the car or on the road or at the bottom. You can't choose not to take vaccines and not affect anyone else.

Measles | Cases and Outbreaks | CDC

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fundamentalism and extremism is dangerous in all its forms

InChrist said:

I know what antibodies are and here is a little further info for you concerning vaccines, antibodies, and real immune system response.

"8. Immunity without antibodies Scientists were surprised when they learned that individuals with a deficit in antibody production, called agammaglobulinemia, recovered from measles just as well as normal antibody producers. This “disconcerting” discovery was made in the 1960s when measles vaccinations were just getting under way. One of the most disconcerting discoveries in clinical medicine was the finding that children with congenital agamma-globulinaemia, who could make no antibody and had only insignificant traces of immunoglobulin in circulation, contracted measles in normal fashion, showed the usual sequence of symptoms and signs, and were subsequently immune. No measles antibody was detectable in their serum [the water part of blood minus clotting factors and cells]. [34] Therefore the antibody part of immunity is not at all necessary for the natural recovery from measles, nor the immunity upon re-exposure. …children with antibody deficiency syndromes have quite unremarkable attacks of measles with the characteristic rash and normal recovery. Furthermore, they are not unduly prone to reinfection. It therefore seems that serum antibody, at any rate in any quantity, is not required for the production of the measles rash; nor for the normal recovery from the disease; nor to prevent reinfection. [35] Nonetheless, vaccine scientists and public health officials have measured “immunity” solely focusing on antibodies. Antibody production does occur in natural infection but it is the last thing that happens and not a necessary part of recovery or long-term immunity. It is known that the immune system responds with more than just antibodies, yet because markers of cell-mediated immunity are elusive, antibodies have become the measure of whether or not a person is immune. When a person gets an infectious disease for the first time, the body’s immune system uses its innate powers, which mostly involve cellular immunity. In the process, it prepares for the future. The next time that same infectious agent comes around; the body will use its memory of the first experience so that it can react faster. This is done with or without antibodies."

It is really a bad thing that the "waning immunity" of vaccines has replaced the lifelong immunity children once received after a natural measles infection.

"This combination of effects can result in large-scale measles epidemics, despite high vaccination rates. When immunity wanes, vaccination has a far more limited impact on the average number of cases. While this observation has clear public-health implications, the dynamic consequences of the interaction between vaccination, waning immunity and boosting are far more striking. For high levels of vaccination (greater than 80%) and moderate levels of waning immunity (greater than 30 years), large-scale epidemic cycles can be induced. [28]
Dr. James Cherry, commented that, in the post-vaccine era, measles had become a “time bomb.” [29] Is this why the CDC and health officials go into a state of panic when measles cases erupt in well vaccinated populations? Do officials know that at some point waning immunity will start an epidemic even in a very highly vaccinated population? Think of the impact of this dynamic as the truly immune seniors die out of the population, and are replaced by vaccine “immune” people."

- See more at: Measles and measles vaccines: fourteen things to consider. ~by Roman Bystrianyk (co-author Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History) | International Medical Council on Vaccination

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Ahem. This website addresses such "evidence" far better than I could. Not being a doctor myself. The Anti-Immunization Activists: A Pattern of Deception
And this A rebuke to the antivaccine movement: A hundred million cases of disease prevented and millions of lives saved by vaccines – Respectful Insolence

See? I can use Google too! I'm just lazier and can't be bothered copying and pasting a large amount of info.

Strangely I couldn't find many credentials for this Mr Roman Bystrianyk on Google. Not quickly anyway. He's linked to Homeopathy sites, though. So........maybe he's a qualified Homeopath? I honestly don't know. Since I am unaware of his qualifications and credentials, I'm not willing to listen to him on matters pertaining to Science, let alone Medicine. At least until I can find proper information regarding his background.

Also I'm sensing a pattern here. Every "scientific" claim for the Anti Vax side seems to come from people involved in "Alternative Medicine." Which is fine, I'm not opposed to seeking out Naturopathy. But they also seem to be devoid of any qualifications and/or background in Immunology specifically. For me, that's kind of like going to a Gynecologist to get a Heart Transplant. A Gyno will be far more knowledgeable than me about such procedures, obviously. But a Heart Surgeon would be the far better and more informed option. As they would have studied that far more in depth and would make far more informed conclusions.

Maybe I just haven't engaged in the Vax debate long enough. So I await such conclusions from those in the specialty (immunology.)

Pegg said:

fundamentalism and extremism is dangerous in all its forms

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What an incredibly disingenuous statement. Do you simply throw around emotionally charged words to deflect the heat off yourself and your own poorly fabricated choices when you feel like you have nowhere else, intellectually, to go? That does seem to be the trend in this conversation.

psychoslice said:

How many people have to die before they realize this crap is killing them, or making them sick in many ways, to me that's a holocaust.

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er.. except that they're not dying

How many people have been killed by vaccines? A number, please, backed up with some kind of reasonably researched statistics. If you cannot provide such a backup, please realize that your assertions are meaningless, and more than that actively dangerous.

psychoslice said:

Yes and these area are mostly filthy in water and sewerage, fix these up and the diseases will fade away.

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Please provide a reference that shows this not to be the barefaced lie that it appears.

Do you have even the faintest clue how diseases like polio are caused and spread?

philbo said:

Please provide a reference that shows this not to be the barefaced lie that it appears.

Do you have even the faintest clue how diseases like polio are caused and spread?

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Obviously not. If he did, he wouldn't be anti-vaxx.

psychoslice said:

I'm sorry that you cannot see beyond your criticisms, Vaccines don't strengthen the immune system, they weaken it, you have been feed a whole lot of rote, but then you think the same about me, and this is how it should be, you make up your mind to be poisoned, and I make up my mind to keep healthy.

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That is a falsehood.

Please stop spreading false information. You're going to hurt somebody, and it's completely irresponsible.

psychoslice said:

I just have to say that I understand your fear of not vaccinating your children, that is if you have children, I myself am blessed without children, so I don't have that fear factor. But that doesn't mean I don't have a say in vaccinating or not vaccinating, I respect your decision of whatever you do, and I expect your respect of my decision, and that's all it boils down to, but can you handle that ??.

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I can't handle that because you're not making an informed decision. You're relying on completely false "information," anecdotal stories and beliefs. It's not only irksome but completely irresponsible.

psychoslice said:

We would be far better of, autism and many other disease would no longer be around, simple as that.

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Another falsehood.

There is no evidence that vaccines cause autism.

This is getting ridiculous.

Marisa said:

Yes, me. Read Nietzsche's response above yours for why. You don't have the RIGHT to expose him, or my husband (who also has an auto-immune disorder) to crap that you can easily be vaccinated against. I don't give a crap what you choose not to do, so long as you don't endanger anyone else.

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Yeah, me too. My young niece has cystic fibrosis and could end up dead because of this anti-vax nonsense.

philbo said:

I wouldn't expect you to be "bullied into a position"; however, I would expect you to have checked that what you post has some degree of evidential support, so that you're not posting stuff you want to believe with no basis in fact.

I don't want to come across as a bully, and I'm sure Luis doesn't either, but if you come out with stuff which is provably false and demonstrably dangerous to the population as a whole, you're going to get some sharp responses from people who actually have some idea of what they're talking about.

On a lighter note.. watch through to the end for a Public Service Announcement:

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Ahaha! A thousand likes!!

Pegg said:

Its the environment which exposes us to virus's and bacteria. They are in the air we breath! Maybe you can live in a bubble which will protect you from the environment?

The best defence against disease is a healthy strong immune system and a clean environment where waste is dealt with properly.... not to mention regular hand washing and keeping our homes and clothing clean.

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Guess what else strengthens the immune system ... VACCINES!

How about children like my niece, who suffer from cystic fibrosis who have compromised immune systems? How about babies who aren't old enough to have been vaccinated yet? How about the fact that our immune system just naturally weakens with age? How about the elderly? How about people who don't or can't live in pristinely sterile environments? How about cancer patients? Do you see how many people are put at risk when people like you spread the kind of misinformation you keep repeating?

psychoslice said:

Vaccines seem to work, the polio was on its way out when the vaccine was introduced, and as usual the witch doctors take the credit.

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Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide. Thanks to vaccination!!

What's your explanation for the, if not vaccination?

psychoslice said:

Healthy body, healthy T-Cells, the body is all one, if you do happen to pick up a virus, then the body will deal with it, gee when I was young, we all had the childhood so called diseases, and I don't ever remember anyone of my friends having problems, and I believe we all have grown up with no problems, except for me, because I was vaccinated, damn crap.

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My grandfather's brother died from whooping cough when he was 2 years old.

There's my anecdote. So now what? We both have opposing anecdotal stories. Who's right?

Or should we maybe rely on empirical medical research instead.

psychoslice said:

I don't have to endanger anyone else, they have already done that to their self by being vaccinated.

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You clearly haven't read any of the responses in this thread to still be saying something like that.

psychoslice said:

A horrifying reaction to the BCG vaccine

Want to see more pics. Vaccine horrors: Medical mutilation of innocent children exposed in GRAPHIC photos of "safe" vaccines gone horribly wrong - NaturalNews.com

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Why don't you share a video or picture of a child dying of tuberculosis for us?