Bible passage again

JRMcC · Apr 18, 2015

Hi, I'm reading the Bible for the first time and I like to over-think every passage when I read religious text. I'll be here with a question about a verse or passage from time to time; I hope it doesn't get on anyone's nerves.

Anyway, Matthew 21 (The Greek and translation comes from Biblehub.com):

Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι, Κύριε, Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου, τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will the father of me, who is in the heavens.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus goes on to say that spreading God's message and fighting demons is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does Jesus make it clear what God's will is? It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

jeager106 · Apr 18, 2015

JRMcC said:
Hi, I'm reading the Bible for the first time and I like to over-think every passage when I read religious text. I'll be here with a question about a verse or passage from time to time; I hope it doesn't get on anyone's nerves.

Anyway, Matthew 21 (The Greek and translation comes from Biblehub.com):

Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι, Κύριε, Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου, τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will the father of me, who is in the heavens.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus goes on to say that spreading God's message and fighting demons is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does Jesus make it clear what God's will is? It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

Jesus can't be bashing Catholics or Protestants as they didn't exist in his time.
The passage is pretty clear. Jesus asks that followers of Christ do His Fathers will.
There were no Christians in the time of Jesus, only Jews who followed his teaching.
There was never a commandment to give up all possessions.
Living a humble life, helping those in need, and love others as you would be loved are virtues that should be practiced by everyone
not just followers of Christ.
Thosse virtues are, however, basic to today's Christianity.
I see nothing harmful in following those basic virtues, only good.

JRMcC · Apr 18, 2015

jeager106 said:
Jesus asks that followers of Christ do His Fathers will

But what exactly is that will? Does it mean that you need to do good works? Or does it mean that you need to make your decisions based on what you think God wants for you?

atpollard · Apr 18, 2015

JRMcC said:
But what exactly is that will? Does it mean that you need to do good works? Or does it mean that you need to make your decisions based on what you think God wants for you?

Just my advice, but read all of Matthew 7 as a whole ... as a series of related pieces of advice ... and do not try to pull Matthew 7:21 out of its context and build a tower of theology on one verse.

Matthew 7:1-6 "don't just screw around with God, take what God says seriously."
Matthew 7:7-12 "but if you really seek, God's truth can be found."
Matthew 7:13-14 "all roads may lead to Rome, but all paths do not lead to God."
Matthew 7:15-20 "not everyone is your friend, so learn to trust, but keep your hand on your wallet."
Matthew 7:21-23 "talk is cheap, so Show me the fruit!"
Matthew 7:24 (therefore) ... Whenever you see a 'therefore', go back and ask what the 'therefore' is there for.
Matthew 7:24-29 "Like James said, quit being a poser and DO as I say rather than just playing at it."

God's specific will is (Mark 12:30-31) 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Something the posers and wanna-be's just playing at following God will never achieve in any meaningful measure.

That's what I take away from it.
YMMV

jeager106 · Apr 18, 2015

What he said. ^^^^^^
Even tho he is a Baptist.

What is God's will?
It's all explained in the Christian Bible. Plain language; no mystery.

Orbit · Apr 18, 2015

JRMcC said:
Hi, I'm reading the Bible for the first time and I like to over-think every passage when I read religious text. I'll be here with a question about a verse or passage from time to time; I hope it doesn't get on anyone's nerves.

Anyway, Matthew 21 (The Greek and translation comes from Biblehub.com):

Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι, Κύριε, Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου, τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will the father of me, who is in the heavens.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus goes on to say that spreading God's message and fighting demons is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does Jesus make it clear what God's will is? It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

Jesus was a Jew. He was talking about keeping the commandments and the principles of the Torah.

Pegg · Apr 18, 2015

JRMcC said:
Hi, I'm reading the Bible for the first time and I like to over-think every passage when I read religious text. I'll be here with a question about a verse or passage from time to time; I hope it doesn't get on anyone's nerves.

Anyway, Matthew 21 (The Greek and translation comes from Biblehub.com):

Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι, Κύριε, Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου, τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will the father of me, who is in the heavens.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus goes on to say that spreading God's message and fighting demons is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does Jesus make it clear what God's will is? It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

Jesus words show that more is involved then simply 'saying' Lord Lord. There are many people praising Jesus. They go to church and do the things their church prescribes. They declare themselves believers and followers of Christ. But only those 'doing the Will of the Father' will inherit everlasting life.

Its also evident that not all religions will be acceptable to God.

The Will of God is made known in the scriptures. When a person is wholeheartedly doing that Will they are acceptable to God.

lovemuffin · Apr 18, 2015

JRMcC said:
It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

I think "faith" is a symbol that might have more to it than your usage suggests, and I think all of the things you listed are good examples of the kind of "doing the will of my Father in heaven" that he seemed to have in mind. John's gospel simplified even further though, when it reports Jesus as saying that the commandment is simply to love. And what I'd suggest is the strength of the latter is that it might be easier for it to avoid the kind of reification and rigidity of a fixed list of specific injunctions, treated in a purely legal way.

Jesus seems to criticize the Pharisees for this, as in Matthew 23:23: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness." The point being that all 3 of those terms are not easy to reduce to some exact formula, but they don't need to be. That's the only sort of caveat I would give to the attempts to figure out exactly what is necessary to "enter the Kingdom of heaven", as well as the caveat that this Kingdom is also within you, as Luke's gospel says. Again, the point being that it's not like an entrance exam administered by a purely external authority, but about a personal transformation that goes beyond a shallow acknowledgement of belief ("Lord, Lord")

Kolibri · May 2, 2015

Pegg said:
Jesus words show that more is involved then simply 'saying' Lord Lord. There are many people praising Jesus. They go to church and do the things their church prescribes. They declare themselves believers and followers of Christ. But only those 'doing the Will of the Father' will inherit everlasting life.

This reminds me of James 1:22-27. The other thing I think about is the things these people were saying they had done in Jesus name were not bad things in themselves. They were simply not the things asked of them. They fell into the trap of doing what made them feel good about themselves instead of seeking to find out what God really wanted. This is like a parent hiring a babysitter and instead of babysitting the person washed the windows and mowed the lawn.

Anyhow back to the verses I mentioned at the onset.

"However, become doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at this own face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. But the one who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.

If anyone thinks he is a worshipper of God but does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he is deceiving his own heart, and his worship is futile. The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world." - James 1:22-27

kepha31 · May 7, 2015

JRMcC said:
Hi, I'm reading the Bible for the first time and I like to over-think every passage when I read religious text. I'll be here with a question about a verse or passage from time to time; I hope it doesn't get on anyone's nerves.

Anyway, Matthew 21 (The Greek and translation comes from Biblehub.com):

Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι, Κύριε, Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου, τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will the father of me, who is in the heavens.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus goes on to say that spreading God's message and fighting demons is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does Jesus make it clear what God's will is? It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

Yes, I think you are right. If it is God's will that you have a family, then giving up ones possessions would not be responsible. That is for those who God calls to be consecrated.

The Seven Corporal Works of Mercy.

To feed the hungry: "For I was hungry and you gave me to eat." Mt. 25:35
To give drink to the thirsty: "...I was thirsty and you gave me to drink..." Mt. 25:35
To clothe the naked: "I was...naked and you clothed me..." Mt. 25:36
To visit the imprisoned: "I was in prison and you came to me." Mt. 25:36
To shelter the homeless: "...I was a stranger and you took me in..." Mt. 25:35
To visit the sick: "...I was sick and you cared for me..." Mt. 25:36
To bury the dead: "Amen, I say to you, insofar as you did it for one of these least of my brothers, you did it for me." Mt. 25:40

The Seven Spiritual Works of Mercy

To admonish the sinner: "...there will be more joy in Heaven at the repentance of one sinner than at ninety-nine of the righteous who had no need of repentance." Lk. 15:7
To instruct the ignorant: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the good news to all creation." Mk. 16:1
To counsel the doubtful: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you...Let not your hearts be troubled..." Jn. 14:27
To comfort the sorrowful: "Come to me, all you grown weary and burdened, and I will refresh you." Mt. 11:28
To bear wrongs patiently: "...Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you." Lk. 6:27-28
To forgive all injuries: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Mt. 6:12
To pray for the living and the dead: "Father, I desire that they, too, may be with me where I am..." Jn. 17:24
Catholic Bible 101 - The Basics

Desert Snake · May 7, 2015

JRMcC said:
Hi, I'm reading the Bible for the first time and I like to over-think every passage when I read religious text. I'll be here with a question about a verse or passage from time to time; I hope it doesn't get on anyone's nerves.

Anyway, Matthew 21 (The Greek and translation comes from Biblehub.com):

Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι, Κύριε, Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου, τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will the father of me, who is in the heavens.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus goes on to say that spreading God's message and fighting demons is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does Jesus make it clear what God's will is? It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

Perhaps we should look at this objectively? Do you believe everything that is written in the New Testament? If not, what is the reasoning behind taking these verses as 'truth', or what actually happened, ie what Jesus actually said?

JRMcC · May 9, 2015

disciple said:
Perhaps we should look at this objectively?

What do you mean?

disciple said:
Do you believe everything that is written in the New Testament?

No.

disciple said:
If not, what is the reasoning behind taking these verses as 'truth', or what actually happened, ie what Jesus actually said?

I guess it's partly curiosity and I like to wonder. But I also (personally) find it hard to believe that the historical Jesus taught that believing that he is God is the key to eternal life. So I like to hear all the different takes, protestant or catholic, on this; it gives me more to think about.

kepha31 · May 10, 2015

JRMcC said:
What do you mean?

No.

I guess it's partly curiosity and I like to wonder. But I also (personally) find it hard to believe that the historical Jesus taught that believing that he is God is the key to eternal life. So I like to hear all the different takes, protestant or catholic, on this; it gives me more to think about.

OK.

12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8)

But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, (9) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (10)

13. In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous "condescension" of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, "that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature." (11) For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

The entire document is amazing, but rather long. This sums up how we should look at the New Testament.

JRMcC · May 10, 2015

kepha31 said:
OK.

12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8)

But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, (9) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (10)

13. In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous "condescension" of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, "that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature." (11) For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

The entire document is amazing, but rather long. This sums up how we should look at the New Testament.

Hi Kepha this a lot, I'll let you know what I think after I give it a close look!

BilliardsBall · May 12, 2015

JRMcC said:
Hi, I'm reading the Bible for the first time and I like to over-think every passage when I read religious text. I'll be here with a question about a verse or passage from time to time; I hope it doesn't get on anyone's nerves.

Anyway, Matthew 21 (The Greek and translation comes from Biblehub.com):

Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων μοι, Κύριε, Κύριε, εἰσελεύσεται εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιῶν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Πατρός μου, τοῦ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will the father of me, who is in the heavens.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus goes on to say that spreading God's message and fighting demons is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Does Jesus make it clear what God's will is? It seems like he is saying that faith alone isn't isn't enough, yet preaching the gospel and living a holy life aren't enough either. It kind of seems like he's bashing protestant and catholic ideas at the same time. If I had to guess I would say the key, according to Jesus, is to live a humble life, give up your possessions, help those in need, and love others as yourself.
Would I be right?
Thoughts on this?

1 Tim 2:4 "God will have [would like for] all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Many Bible "mysteries" have to do with simply conferring with other verses and passages.

Matthew 7: "Only those who do God's desire/will by trusting Him will be saved."

Bible passage again

JRMcC

Active Member

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.

JRMcC

Active Member

atpollard

Active Member

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.

Orbit

I'm a planet

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος

Kolibri

Well-Known Member

kepha31

Active Member

Desert Snake

Veteran Member

JRMcC

Active Member

kepha31

Active Member

JRMcC

Active Member

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member