How Banks Are Enslaving Humans

Shadow Wolf · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
- It doesn't require being forced upon a populace.

How is it not forced on us? Any model that you are born into, by default, is forced upon you.
Capitalism forces the vast majority of people to get far less from it than what they put into it.

Revoltingest said:
Racism - For some it could be ideological. For others it's just a state of mind.

Racism is purely built upon the ideas that fuel it; there is nothing concrete that drives it. There is never "just" a state of mind with it.

Revoltingest said:
Anachronism - Many anachronisms aren't even thought.

Anachronisms reflect many things, especially ideas.

Revoltingest said:
Embolism - It's a physical condi.....OK....I'm beating a dead horse here....someone stop me!

There is that.

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
How is it not forced on us? Any model that you are born into, by default, is forced upon you.
Capitalism forces the vast majority of people to get far less from it than what they put into it.
Racism is purely built upon the ideas that fuel it; there is nothing concrete that drives it. There is never "just" a state of mind with it.
Anachronisms reflect many things, especially ideas.

Not all ideas are ideologies.
Example:
Thermodynamics is a bunch of ideas.
It's clearly not an ideology.

The larger issue:
There are 2 kinds of people....
1) People who go thru life thinking everything is forced upon them. The feel they're victims, slaves, & not responsible for what happens in their lives. They feel they don't have as much as they deserve, & they resent those who have more.
2) People who seize opportunity, make free choices, & are in charge of their own lives.

Neither will ever see the other's perspective.
But woe to a society when the first type becomes a political majority.

Stevicus · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
Not all ideas are ideologies.
Example:
Thermodynamics is a bunch of ideas.
It's clearly not an ideology.

I'm not sure why you keep harping on this point, but the thing is, capitalism can't really be a "system" because it's too generalized a term and not specific enough.

But let me ask you this: Regardless of whether you call it an ideology or not, why do you seem to believe that there's only one way to practice capitalism? You seem to view this "thing" called capitalism as being rigid and inflexible where I either have to go along with your way of capitalism - or else come up with a completely different alternative (which seemed to be the basis of your earlier question to me).

Even Keynesianism is unacceptable to you. Why is that? You're clearly a student of the Chicago School and a disciple of Milton Friedman, but why is it so difficult for you to come to terms with this?

The larger issue:
There are 2 kinds of people....

I see it another way. There are 2 kinds of people:

1. People who think there are only 2 kinds of people.
2. People who see life as a bit more complicated and don't try to pigeonhole, compartmentalize, or oversimplify things.

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Stevicus said:
I'm not sure why you keep harping on this point....

I responded to someone else's post about it.
I'd be happy to let the matter wane too.

....capitalism can't really be a "system" because it's too generalized a term and not specific enough.

Speaking as a former control system designer, I see all the traits of a defined system.

But let me ask you this: Regardless of whether you call it an ideology or not, why do you seem to believe that there's only one way to practice capitalism?

I believe there's only one way to practice it?
That's news to me.

You seem to view this "thing" called capitalism as being rigid and inflexible where I either have to go along with your way of capitalism - or else come up with a completely different alternative (which seemed to be the basis of your earlier question to me).
Even Keynesianism is unacceptable to you.

I didn't say it's unacceptable.

Rather than address the rest of your post, I should point out that you're making many erroneous presumptions about my beliefs.
Tis as though you're holding a conversation with someone else, but directing it at me.
I've no interest in defending stereotypical beliefs which aren't my own.
If you want to continue, please tackle a single issue at a time, ask more questions, & make fewer pronouncements.

Stevicus · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
I responded to someone else's post about it.
I'd be happy to let the matter wane too.

It would be easier if you'd simply agree that capitalism is an ideology so we can progress further in the discussion (or just let it end, if you're not interested in discussing it anymore).

Speaking as a former control system designer, I see all the traits of a defined system.

Can you elaborate on this?

I believe there's only one way to practice it?
That's news to me.

Then why did you ask me for an alternative to capitalism when I was criticizing certain aspects of it?

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Stevicus said:
It would be easier if you'd simply agree that capitalism is an ideology so we can progress further in the discussion....

We don't need agreement.

Can you elaborate on this?

Per a commonly accepted definition....
System | Define System at Dictionary.com
Per Wikipedia....
System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From the above definitions, my training (engineer), & my observation, economic systems qualify as systems.

Then why did you ask me for an alternative to capitalism when I was criticizing certain aspects of it?

I wondered if you thought an alternative was better.

Stevicus · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
We don't need agreement.

Very well.

Per a commonly accepted definition....
System | Define System at Dictionary.com
Per Wikipedia....
System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From the above definitions, my training (engineer), & my observation, economic systems qualify as systems.

Interestingly enough, while reviewing the Wikipedia entry for "System," there was a sub-heading which linked to their article on "Economic System." Following that link, the article has a box on the side which says the article is "Part of a series on Economic Systems," and then shows a list of various economic systems categorizing them...wait for it..."By Ideology." There is a further article on the subject: Economic ideology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The article links to various economic ideologies:
Anarchist, Capitalist, Communist, Corporatist, Fascist, Georgist, Islamic, Laissez-faire, Market socialist, Participatory, (Neo-)Mercantilist, Protectionist, Socialist, Syndicalist, Third Way

I wondered if you thought an alternative was better.

I thought I made it clear earlier in this thread that I felt that a mixed system was better.

Let me ask you this: Do you really believe that life is better in the United States because of the capitalist system? I'm really asking this as a serious question, so I hope you're at least courteous enough to give me a serious answer.

My reason for asking is that many of your arguments seem to rely on the premise that "our system is better," and you noted a few examples which makes me think that you're just looking at it from a cursory and superficial level. You haven't really demonstrated an adequate knowledge of the history of the world or the countries you were criticizing, and frankly, you seem to be casually glossing over the history of our own country and the different ways capitalism has been practiced when left to its own devices. When you say the "government is the enemy," you make it seem like the government is just doing it for no reason - just because they want to make your life miserable. Can't you even recognize that there are reasons why the government has had to do what it's had to do?

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Stevicus said:
I thought I made it clear earlier in this thread that I felt that a mixed system was better.

Perhaps I just didn't grok it.
It's why I asked.

Do you really believe that life is better in the United States because of the capitalist system?
I'm really asking this as a serious question, so I hope you're at least courteous enough to give me a serious answer.

Yes.

Here's some style advice about posting style:
Rather than stating that you hope I'm serious & courteous, why
not simply presume that I will be, & only object when I'm not.

My reason for asking is that many of your arguments seem to rely on the premise that "our system is better," and you noted a few examples which makes me think that you're just looking at it from a cursory and superficial level.

You should also consider lessening your focus upon my perceived shortcomings.
The rest of your post follows that line, & it just doesn't interest me to continually correct your presumptions.

Stevicus · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
it just doesn't interest me to continually correct your presumptions.

I can also see that it doesn't interest you to have reasonable discussions regarding issues that affect our country. You seem to be taking all this personally, and I'm not sure why.

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Stevicus said:
I can also see that it doesn't interest you to have reasonable discussions regarding issues that affect our country. You seem to be taking all this personally, and I'm not sure why.

Actually, I'm coaching you to avoid making it personal.
I have "reasonable" discussions with many posters, some of whom are far to the left of you.
The difference is that they don't make erroneous presumptions, nor do they seek to find fault.
I suggest re-reading your recent posts to see how ad hominem they are.

Shadow Wolf · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
1) People who go thru life thinking everything is forced upon them. The feel they're victims, slaves, & not responsible for what happens in their lives. They feel they don't have as much as they deserve, & they resent those who have more.

There really are a lot more than just two types of people. Things like patriotism are forced upon children, we are indoctrinated on how we are supposed to view the world, culture tells us how we are supposed to feel and express emotions, and citizens are forced to become consumers if they want to participate in the larger society. This has nothing to do with a victim mentality, or slavery, or lack of personal responsibility. It's just the way things are, much how slavery was forced upon Africans (under a capitalist system) and how many throughout the Middle East are forced into a world of violence. No one chooses these things, so if they are not done by choice then it is by varying degrees of force that they are applied to us.

Stevicus said:
I'm not sure why you keep harping on this point, but the thing is, capitalism can't really be a "system" because it's too generalized a term and not specific enough.

Capitalism is a system though. It's when you examine this system that you can begin to study the ideology of it. This examination is why even thermodynamics has ideology behind it, most notably the ideology of the scientific method.

Stevicus · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
Actually, I'm coaching you to avoid making it personal.
I have "reasonable" discussions with many posters, some of whom are far to the left of you.
The difference is that they don't make erroneous presumptions, nor do they seek to find fault.
I suggest re-reading your recent posts to see how ad hominem they are.

It's rather condescending on your part to presume that you can "coach" me. That speaks volumes. Have a nice day.

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
There really are a lot more than just two types of people.

Of course, but the division I made served to illustrate my point.
I observe that most people feel they lack choices when they
really do, & they blame their poor choices upon others.

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Stevicus said:
It's rather condescending on your part to presume that you can "coach" me. That speaks volumes. Have a nice day.

I'm here to help those in need....whether they want it or not.
Some learn....some don't.....but it's free of charge.

And I am having a great day! It's been a puzzlement, but I expect to
get my axles on my damaged trailer aligned well enuf to be kind to tires.
(10 ply tires are spendy things, & should last as long as possible.)

Stevicus · Apr 18, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
Capitalism is a system though. It's when you examine this system that you can begin to study the ideology of it. This examination is why even thermodynamics has ideology behind it, most notably the ideology of the scientific method.

True enough. I wasn't really trying to get into hairsplitting over the term, although the arguments either for or against capitalism tend to come down to ideological arguments and subjective value judgments. This is generally the case with any human-derived system, whether it's a political system or an economic system.

Stevicus · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
I'm here to help those in need....whether they want it or not.
Some learn....some don't.....but it's free of charge.

Honest, I don't really know how it came to this. You seem to think that I'm "in need" of something, yet you speak in riddles rather than just come out and say whatever it is you're trying to insinuate here. Not that I care what you think of me, but if I've offended you in some way, then please tell me what it is, because I honestly have no idea what it might have been. If you're presuming to teach me something here, then, please Mr. Teacher, could you go over the lesson again, because I don't understand?

Shadow Wolf · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
Of course, but the division I made served to illustrate my point.
I observe that most people feel they lack choices when they
really do, & they blame their poor choices upon others.

People do need personable accountability, but, at the same time, this "poor choices" mentality in America is severely overplayed. If poor choices were all that kept people in poverty, why is there still so much of it? And what about teens? There brain is still immature, and they are known for making poor choices. Should they follow them for the rest of their lives, because that is the direction we're heading in.
Everybody makes mistakes, everyone makes poor decisions. One class shouldn't be singled out for them. The only difference is because one class can afford poor decisions and aren't noticed as often.

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Stevicus said:
Honest, I don't really know how it came to this. You seem to think that I'm "in need" of something, yet you speak in riddles rather than just come out and say whatever it is you're trying to insinuate here. Not that I care what you think of me, but if I've offended you in some way, then please tell me what it is, because I honestly have no idea what it might have been. If you're presuming to teach me something here, then, please Mr. Teacher, could you go over the lesson again, because I don't understand?

I've been clear as a bell (no insinuations).
No offense taken....conversation just hasn't yet been productive.

Revoltingest · Apr 18, 2015

Shadow Wolf said:
People do need personable accountability, but, at the same time, this "poor choices" mentality in America is severely overplayed. If poor choices were all that kept people in poverty, why is there still so much of it? And what about teens? There brain is still immature, and they are known for making poor choices. Should they follow them for the rest of their lives, because that is the direction we're heading in.
Everybody makes mistakes, everyone makes poor decisions. One class shouldn't be singled out for them. The only difference is because one class can afford poor decisions and aren't noticed as often.

I've hired many people who qualify as "poor". Compared to others I hire, I notice that they handle money poorly, they get in trouble with the law, they abuse alcohol, & they're prone to sabotaging their own careers. I can't say whether good decision making is beyond their abilities, but their lot in life is nonetheless the result of those decisions.
Sut sometimes, there are folk who are poor when I hire them, and they rise above their station with drive, work & smarts. I give help to anyone willing to receive it, & it pleases me when they quit because my company is too small a pond for their ambitions.

Shadow Wolf · Apr 18, 2015

Revoltingest said:
I've hired many people who qualify as "poor". Compared to others I hire, I notice that they handle money poorly, they get in trouble with the law, they abuse alcohol, & they're prone to sabotaging their own careers. I can't say whether good decision making is beyond their abilities, but their lot in life is nonetheless the result of those decisions.

And rich people don't do these things?

How Banks Are Enslaving Humans

Certified People sTabber

Pragmatic Libertarian

Veteran Member

Pragmatic Libertarian

Veteran Member

Pragmatic Libertarian

Veteran Member

Pragmatic Libertarian

Veteran Member

Pragmatic Libertarian

Certified People sTabber

Veteran Member

Pragmatic Libertarian

Pragmatic Libertarian

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Certified People sTabber

Pragmatic Libertarian

Pragmatic Libertarian

Certified People sTabber