The Pantheistic side of the Gospels

[Nefelie]

For several years I have studied the Gospels (the NT Gospels and the Gnostic ones) and the more I study them, the more I conclude that they are very much Pantheistic and Panentheistic.

Here are some examples from the NT Gospels:

<<…Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are Gods’?...>> [Jn 10:34]
(He was referring to the psalms: <<…I said, ‘You are Gods; all of you are sons of the Most High.’ Yet you will die like mortals;…>> [ps 82] and to Isaiah: <<...Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods...>> [Is 41:23] )

<<...Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you…>> [Lk 17:21]

<<…Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect…>> [Mt 5:48]
Why would he ask as to be something that we cannot be (a god)? Probably because we CAN be

<<…Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do…>> [Jn 14:12]
Greater works than Jesus himself? Imagine that!

And my personal favorite:

<<…Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me…>> [Jn 17:19-23]

Let’s start with these for now

…Comments?

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[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm. For me, pantheism means that everything is divine. I don't attribute "divine" as a person; and, by definition, I don't think pantheism defines the divine as a person either. My thoughts.

Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are Gods’?...>>

Christianity teaches that Christians are one with god when they are one with Jesus. The divine only concerns Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Pantheism says everything is divine (or a god). So, even if the people Jesus talked to where in one with Good as Jesus said he was, that doesn't make him one with everything; because, in Christianity, god is not everything.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you…

The Kingdom of God is not a place. It's like saying "the power of god" or the "love of god". Kingdom refers to hierarchy and authority. In pantheism, everything is god. I never read it has an authority or a hierarcy in nature. Thats what abrahamic teachings say one over another. How I see it, everything is equal. Since god is everything.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect…

Pantheism doesn't separate god from everything. Maybe you are talking about Panthenthism, I don't know. That, and many pantheist know that everything is not "perfect" just because it is divine (in my terms, sacred). Everything has it's place.

Christianity doesnt teach that god is everything. They teach god is either Jesus and/or he is an entity or spirit separate from human beings.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do…

He is talking about faith not actual works. He is demonstrating to his disciples that hey have "ye of little faith" and he is showing the the physical works he does, so they believe him. Once they believe, he teaches them that he, Jesus, can only do this by his faith in god. In pantheism, there isn't a "faith in god" to move mountains. God is the mountain. He is everything. Jesus is demonstrating what faith means and how it is important to believe in their Father in heaven.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me…

Which mean everyone is on the same level or looking from the same eye. They re in union with each other. In pantheism, it is they are each other. However, pantheism also says they are everything and everyone not just part of Jesus and the Father. Christianity doesn't teach that.

Maybe you're talking about panthenthiesm?

 

[Nefelie]

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Welcome to the conversation Carlita! Thank you for answering

Hmm. For me, pantheism means that everything is divine. I don't attribute "divine" as a person; and, by definition, I don't think pantheism defines the divine as a person either. My thoughts.

Since it is still not proven that Jesus really existed, it is argued that he might have been an idea, a personification of the “perfect man” as in the man that has fully understood and embraced his divinity.

From that view point, it has also been argued that “his way” is the way for all of us to reach our full potentials as divine beings.

Hence the entering passage of John:

<< In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God >> [Jn 1:1]

I’m sure you already know that “Word” (with capital “W”) in the original Greek scripture is “Logos” which literally means “intelligent consciousness”. A human, in Greek is described as “enlogo on” which means “being/entity with intelligence and consciousness”.

Jesus, as has been said many times, is the Word... Do you see how everything falls into place?

The Kingdom of God is not a place. It's like saying "the power of god" or the "love of god". Kingdom refers to hierarchy and authority. In pantheism, everything is god.

Hmm... Not really. Remember the passage:

And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. [Mk 4:26-32]

And of course the blessings [Mt 5:3-16]

Therefore “the kingdom of god” is something that is and can become you.

Christianity doesnt teach that god is everything. They teach god is either Jesus and/or he is an entity or spirit separate from human beings.

My dear, step away from synoptic Christianity and it’s teachings for a moment and read the passages as a Pantheist...

.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

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Welcome to the conversation Carlita! Thank you for answering



Since it is still not proven that Jesus really existed, it is argued that he might have been an idea, a personification of the “perfect man” as in the man that has fully understood and embraced his divinity.

From that view point, it has also been argued that “his way” is the way for all of us to reach our full potentials as divine beings.

Hence the entering passage of John:

<< In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God >> [Jn 1:1]

I’m sure you already know that “Word” (with capital “W”) in the original Greek scripture is “Logos” which literally means “intelligent consciousness”. A human, in Greek is described as “enlogo on” which means “being/entity with intelligence and consciousness”.

Jesus, as has been said many times, is the Word... Do you see how everything falls into place?



Hmm... Not really. Remember the passage:

And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. [Mk 4:26-32]

And of course the blessings [Mt 5:3-16]

Therefore “the kingdom of god” is something that is and can become you.



My dear, step away from synoptic Christianity and it’s teachings for a moment and read the passages as a Pantheist...

.

Ima reply more indepth a bit latter.. This last sentence got me. How? That would mean I'm warping Christianity. Hmm. As a pantheist, I'd have to change who god is. He can't be the creator of the earth because as a pantheist, I see him as creation. Jesus Christ is an actual person just like every other person. Just because he is connected to religion doesn't make him less of a person that The Buddha. If I saw him from a pantheist perspective, I'd say he is part of god too (The Father and I are One). That would have to let me warp Christianity into changing that god is a creator rather than god is creation. So, Jesus would be one with creation just like you and I.

Intelligence consciousness and Christianity? Christ means The Anointed. Jesus isn't his real name. He's not an idea or an intelligent conscious. He is a human being who was anointed by his father in heaven when he was baptized.

The Word is Jesus not the Person but "word of his Father". It is W- because it isn't just any words, it is of His Father in heaven (this is not my own but from my Father in heaven).

The only way I can see Christianity as an pantheist religion is to believe god is not a creator but his creation and Jesus, not anointed by his father, but Is his father.

That's not what scripture teaches, though.

 

[Ouroboros]

I’m sure you already know that “Word” (with capital “W”) in the original Greek scripture is “Logos” which literally means “intelligent consciousness”. A human, in Greek is described as “enlogo on” which means “being/entity with intelligence and consciousness”.

First of, I really like everything you write, just so you know.

But "Logos" does not literally mean "intelligent consciousness." It has had some different meanings but originally it was more related to words or rules. Like the laws of nature would be logos. But the word also means logic and some other aspects, but I have never seen it been related to intelligence or even consciousness. Of course I could be wrong about this, so would you care for giving a source or reference?

Personally, the way I see "Logos" in John is more of Laws of Nature. God created the world by giving it the laws of nature, and Jesus is the embodiment of those. Something like that. The word (laws) became flesh (Jesus). Kind'a thing.

 

[Nefelie]

This last sentence got me. How? That would mean I'm warping Christianity.

Why warping?

Don’t forget that synoptic Christianity is what warped the original teachings in the first place. The Gnostics come first, remember?

As a pantheist, I'd have to change who god is. He can't be the creator of the earth because as a pantheist, I see him as creation.

The Christian god is not necessarily a creator. The creation part is in the OT and Christianity just accepted it like that. Jesus on the other hand said:

<< I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. >> [Rev. 1:8]
<< I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. >> [Rev. 22:13]

And also:

<< I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely >> [Rev. 21:6]

(...That fountain and water and life issue is a really big conversation, which I’m holding for later )

He also said at some point << from the beginning of time, I AM >> but I can’t find it right now, so I’ll look it up again and come back later for it

Now, combine all the above with these:

1) Jesus always claimed that he is “the Son of Man”.

2) His Father is in Heavens and he is also our father [Mt 6:9]

3) The Father and the Son are One.

4) We and the Son are One (as mentioned to the previous post).

5) The Pantheistic belief is that all is god but not THE god. THE god is all TOGETHER. In other words, you are god, I am god, my cat is god, the tree is god, etc... and all together we are THE god. “One is All and All is One”… right?

So, after combining all this, do you see the Pantheistic view of Jesus in the gospels?

Christ means The Anointed. Jesus isn't his real name. He's not an idea or an intelligent conscious. He is a human being who was anointed by his father in heaven when he was baptized.

1) The original word of “Christ” is “Christos” which means “he who got the chrisma”.
“Chrisma”, yes, it does mean “anoint” but also and together means “worthy”. In ancient Greece, all neophytes where getting the “chrisma” after they where baptized. It meant that they have proven worthy (after a series of teaching and testing) to proceed to deeper/higher mysteries, and became “Christoi” (plural for “Christos”). So, the one called “Christos” is the one that is anointed because s/he is worthy.

Jesus also wasn’t called “Christ” until after his resurrection... Which is also another big issue for later

In the later centuries, Christians started baptizing their babies and giving them the chrisma without them earning it. That was the down-fall of the title.
If you have been baptised, you are also Chistos. So am I. No bigy

2) “Jesus” is considered his real name (assuming he actually existed). It literally means “god is salvation”. But, some Greek scholars have argued that “Iesous” (as is pronounced in the original scriptures) is actually a Jewish pronunciation of “Iachous” ... which is the name of Dionysus Zagreas -the Healer. Hence the Greek word “iasis” (healing).
The ancient mysteries of Dionysus Zagreas have soooo much in common with the Christian practices, that is truly astonishing. Starting with the Holy Communion, which has been passed from the Dionysians to the Christians EXACTLY as it is... And they where Pantheists

...But I think I’m tiring you, so I’ll stop here. We can come back to that later, if you wish

~~~

First of, I really like everything you write, just so you know.

Thank you! I enjoy your posts very much too

But "Logos" does not literally mean "intelligent consciousness." Like the laws of nature would be logos. But the word also means logic and some other aspects, but I have never seen it been related to intelligence or even consciousness. Of course I could be wrong about this, so would you care for giving a source or reference?

By risking sounding arrogant, please consider the fact that I’m Greek and leaving in Greece, so I’ve been talking and being taught Greek my entire life.
Take my... word (hmm ) for it: it means “intelligent consciousness”. Hence where the word “logic” (and all the other words from it) came from, as you correctly mentioned.

I’d love to give you references, but everything I have is in Greek. I’ll try to find something in English for you

Personally, the way I see "Logos" in John is more of Laws of Nature. God created the world by giving it the laws of nature, and Jesus is the embodiment of those. Something like that. The word (laws) became flesh (Jesus). Kind'a thing.

“Laws of Nature” is a good concept for it! But, god didn’t “give the laws”, he IS the laws.

<< In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God >>

Now, also consider that according to the Eastern Orthodox Church, Father-Son-Holy Spirit are ONE and INSEPARABLE. The Son is the embodiment of the Father… who IS nature.

Do you see Pantheism to that?

(Note: the nature of the Trinity -if it is inseparable or not- was the main reason for the Great Schism, as I’m sure you already know )

.

 

[Ouroboros]

Thank you! I enjoy your posts very much too

By risking sounding arrogant, please consider the fact that I’m Greek and leaving in Greece, so I’ve been talking and being taught Greek my entire life.
Take my... word (hmm ) for it: it means “intelligent consciousness”. Hence where the word “logic” (and all the other words from it) came from, as you correctly mentioned.

I’d love to give you references, but everything I have is in Greek. I’ll try to find something in English for you

You don't have to. I think I understand. I just have never seen that definition anywhere before. Is this a modern use of the word or was this the meaning even in Koine Greek and even in the ancient Greece?

Just to give you an idea from where I come from, here's one explanation of the word Logos:

The Greek word λόγος, or logos, is a word with various meanings. It is often translated into English as "Word," but can also mean thought, speech, meaning, reason, proportions, principle, standard, or logic, among other things. In religious contexts, it can indicate the divine Word, wisdom, or truth.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Logos

I guess you could translate "thought" into intelligence and consciousness and such, even though it feels a bit like a stretch. But if you say that this is how you use it today in Greece, well, then that's how it's used today. Not sure if that was what they understood it as at the time of writing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why warping?

Don’t forget that synoptic Christianity is what warped the original teachings in the first place. The Gnostics come first, remember?



The Christian god is not necessarily a creator. The creation part is in the OT and Christianity just accepted it like that. Jesus on the other hand said:

<< I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. >> [Rev. 1:8]
<< I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. >> [Rev. 22:13]

And also:

<< I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely >> [Rev. 21:6]

(...That fountain and water and life issue is a really big conversation, which I’m holding for later )

He also said at some point << from the beginning of time, I AM >> but I can’t find it right now, so I’ll look it up again and come back later for it

Now, combine all the above with these:

1) Jesus always claimed that he is “the Son of Man”.

2) His Father is in Heavens and he is also our father [Mt 6:9]

3) The Father and the Son are One.

4) We and the Son are One (as mentioned to the previous post).

5) The Pantheistic belief is that all is god but not THE god. THE god is all TOGETHER. In other words, you are god, I am god, my cat is god, the tree is god, etc... and all together we are THE god. “One is All and All is One”… right?

So, after combining all this, do you see the Pantheistic view of Jesus in the gospels?



1) The original word of “Christ” is “Christos” which means “he who got the chrisma”.
“Chrisma”, yes, it does mean “anoint” but also and together means “worthy”. In ancient Greece, all neophytes where getting the “chrisma” after they where baptized. It meant that they have proven worthy (after a series of teaching and testing) to proceed to deeper/higher mysteries, and became “Christoi” (plural for “Christos”). So, the one called “Christos” is the one that is anointed because s/he is worthy.

Jesus also wasn’t called “Christ” until after his resurrection... Which is also another big issue for later

In the later centuries, Christians started baptizing their babies and giving them the chrisma without them earning it. That was the down-fall of the title.
If you have been baptised, you are also Chistos. So am I. No bigy

2) “Jesus” is considered his real name (assuming he actually existed). It literally means “god is salvation”. But, some Greek scholars have argued that “Iesous” (as is pronounced in the original scriptures) is actually a Jewish pronunciation of “Iachous” ... which is the name of Dionysus Zagreas -the Healer. Hence the Greek word “iasis” (healing).
The ancient mysteries of Dionysus Zagreas have soooo much in common with the Christian practices, that is truly astonishing. Starting with the Holy Communion, which has been passed from the Dionysians to the Christians EXACTLY as it is... And they where Pantheists

...But I think I’m tiring you, so I’ll stop here. We can come back to that later, if you wish

~~~



Thank you! I enjoy your posts very much too



By risking sounding arrogant, please consider the fact that I’m Greek and leaving in Greece, so I’ve been talking and being taught Greek my entire life.
Take my... word (hmm ) for it: it means “intelligent consciousness”. Hence where the word “logic” (and all the other words from it) came from, as you correctly mentioned.

I’d love to give you references, but everything I have is in Greek. I’ll try to find something in English for you



“Laws of Nature” is a good concept for it! But, god didn’t “give the laws”, he IS the laws.

<< In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God >>

Now, also consider that according to the Eastern Orthodox Church, Father-Son-Holy Spirit are ONE and INSEPARABLE. The Son is the embodiment of the Father… who IS nature.

Do you see Pantheism to that?

(Note: the nature of the Trinity -if it is inseparable or not- was the main reason for the Great Schism, as I’m sure you already know )

.

Do you mean to say that the Judaism creator is after the Gnostics gospels?

 

[Ouroboros]

Also, another quote from the same article:

In ancient philosophy, Logos was used by Heraclitus, a Pre-Socratic Greek philosopher. He used the term logos to describe the universal Law, or the principle that inherently ordered the cosmos and regulated its phenomena. Some fragments ascribed to Heraclitus read:

The Law (of the universe) is as here explained; but men are always incapable of understanding it, both before they hear it, and when they have heard it for the first time. For though all things come into being in accordance with this Law, men seem as if they had never met with it, when they meet with words (theories) and actions (processes) such as I expound, separating each thing according to its nature and explaining how it is made.[1]

Therefore one must follow (the universal Law, namely) that which is common (to all). But although the Law is universal, the majority live as if they had understanding peculiar to themselves.

Heraclitus also used the term Logos to mean the undifferentiated material substrate from which all things came: "Listening not to me but to the Logos it is wise to agree that all [things] are one." In this sense, Logos is Heraclitus' answer to the Pre-Socratic question of what the arche is of all things. Logos, therefore, designates both the material substrate itself and the universal, mechanical, "just" way in which this substrate manifests itself in, and as, individual things. What this means is, it encompasses within itself the later Platonic distinction (in Timaeus) between "form" and "matter."

That's how I think of Logos, the underlying law of nature, and perhaps even the substrate of reality and existence. In other words, Logos would kind'a be like the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nefelie]

Do you mean to say that the Judaism creator is after the Gnostics gospels?

I don’t understand the question… Are you asking if I mean that the Gnostics pre-date the OT?!

You don't have to. I think I understand. I just have never seen that definition anywhere before.

To be totally honest with you, “Logos” (with capital L) is a very difficult word to interprete. If you want to see terror in the eyes of a Greek scholar, ask him what “Logos” means, hahaha...
Bible scholars have the same problem. I’ve been informed that some of them even based their thesis on John’s 1:1. So, you can understand that it’s not an easy subject. John made us no favours by using this word in his opening verse.

The most popular interpretation is the one I gave you, only because it is based on the following:

1) As mentioned before, a human is an “en-logos” being. He is the ONLY “en-logos” being on this planet (we do not use that term for any other creature), even though many other beings have at least basic reason/logic (especially the mammals). Therefore, humans have/are something more than just beings with reason/logic. And, since humans have both intelligence and consciousness... “logos” is both these things.

BUT we are also something more:

2) Like you use in English the phrase “I give you my word”, we too use the same phrase in Greek for the same thing: “I give you my (sou dino ton) logos”... What is that? What does it mean? Am I giving you my reason? That makes no sense. Am I giving you my intelligence or my consciousness or my speech? Doesn’t make sense either, does it? ...
So what is it?...
...It’s something more than all this. Something higher and sacred. Something... divine

Of course, all the above do not discard the eons of philosophy on the subject, as you found out on your own with the article you presented

Also, another quote from the same article:
That's how I think of Logos, the underlying law of nature, and perhaps even the substrate of reality and existence. In other words, Logos would kind'a be like the Holy Spirit.

The article is very good and well structured.

Pay more attention to this: << "Listening not to me but to the Logos it is wise to agree that all [things] are one." >>


I like your concept where Logos is like the Holy Spirit. Never thought about it that way. Interesting

Personally, I always thought of the Holy Spirit as our connection with the One... so yes, I guess Logos could be the Holy Spirit as well

.

 

[idav]

Christianity doesnt teach that god is everything. They teach god is either Jesus and/or he is an entity or spirit separate from human beings.

Well yes, Jesus was teaching us humans what he was doing.

This should be mostly for discussion but here is a helpful verse that get into that very subject.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you i in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

 

[idav]

For several years I have studied the Gospels (the NT Gospels and the Gnostic ones) and the more I study them, the more I conclude that they are very much Pantheistic and Panentheistic.

Here are some examples from the NT Gospels:

<<…Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are Gods’?...>> [Jn 10:34]
(He was referring to the psalms: <<…I said, ‘You are Gods; all of you are sons of the Most High.’ Yet you will die like mortals;…>> [ps 82] and to Isaiah: <<...Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods...>> [Is 41:23] )

<<...Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you…>> [Lk 17:21]

<<…Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect…>> [Mt 5:48]
Why would he ask as to be something that we cannot be (a god)? Probably because we CAN be

<<…Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do…>> [Jn 14:12]
Greater works than Jesus himself? Imagine that!

And my personal favorite:

<<…Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me…>> [Jn 17:19-23]

Let’s start with these for now

…Comments?

.

Very revealing texts without even having to go to the Gospel of Thomas!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well yes, Jesus was teaching us humans what he was doing.

This should be mostly for discussion but here is a helpful verse that get into that very subject.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you i in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

A pantheist view would be: that all of them are one, Father, just as you are me and I am you. May they be us so that the world may believe you have sent me we are one.

I think you are falling into the same situation with the people who believe in the trinity.

The Bible says we are crucified IN Christ. We live In the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God sends the holy spirit as a dove. Jesus's spirit possesses the apostles when they were born again.

In pantheism, everything is interconnected. It doesn't make sense to say my mother or ancestors are in me. They are me.

Pantheism is, we are each other. Scripture separates god from creation by the agent (god) going into someone. If it was pantheism, there would be no need to go or do anything because everything is god.

Also, there would be no sin if god was everything according to mainstream Christianity. Since god cannot be in sin, how can we have sin and still be god.

It is not bad, it's just a fact that Christianity separates god from humanity. If he didn't, we'd all be perfect.

 

[idav]

A pantheist view would be: that all of them are one, Father, just as you are me and I am you. May they be us so that the world may believe you have sent me we are one.

I think you are falling into the same situation with the people who believe in the trinity.

The Bible says we are crucified IN Christ. We live In the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God sends the holy spirit as a dove. Jesus's spirit possesses the apostles when they were born again.

In pantheism, everything is interconnected. It doesn't make sense to say my mother or ancestors are in me. They are me.

Pantheism is, we are each other. Scripture separates god from creation by the agent (god) going into someone. If it was pantheism, there would be no need to go or do anything because everything is god.

Also, there would be no sin if god was everything according to mainstream Christianity. Since god cannot be in sin, how can we have sin and still be god.

It is not bad, it's just a fact that Christianity separates god from humanity. If he didn't, we'd all be perfect.

Some christains believe Theosis can be achieved, of course it is a heretical view of a "trinity". Gnosis removes the middle-man, and brings humans up to gods level, not bringing god down to ours.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Gnosis removes the middle-man, and brings humans up to gods level, not bringing god down to ours.

I honestly don't know what Theosis is; however, I like this. I guess there is a balance on both ends. At least, hopefully, a mutual understanding of why both are equally beneficial and important.

For example, on the opposite side, not having a middle man can make men think they are gods (taking advantage of their authority). It gives them a place of power. Unless god is redefined, I find that would cause a lot of problems.

While the other hand, the opposite side if humans were in between god (half god or not) then it limits how much of a relationship god can comfortably have with his people given he is thrown off by sin. It leaves the believer in faith, crying, and yearning for god and trying to understand him through someone who is not god but says he (moses, muhammad, or jesus) knows or can speak in god's behalf.

I like the first one in theory because one goes straight for god. However, it takes more discipline to not be egotistic about it. I like the second one, especially with Muhammad and how Bahai see their prophets of other peoples faiths. God doesn't have to be a mystery. He can be understood through his creation, Jesus and the prophets.

As for their pantheistic side. No abrahamic religion, in their mainstream form, equates god with creation. "God created" separates himself right there. No matter how much In, Of, and Through they are, if they are not each other, its not pantheism.

 

[idav]

As for their pantheistic side. No abrahamic religion, in their mainstream form, equates god with creation. "God created" separates himself right there. No matter how much In, Of, and Through they are, if they are not each other, its not pantheism.

The pantheist theological construct can exist in any religion and being "mainstream" doesn't mean correct. I'm aware most christains might be more pan(en)theist instead but they equate Jesus to God himself, same substance etc., lets not try and wiggle them out of the trinity all of a sudden.

I was saying earlier this should be more for discussion cause we are in a DIR. You can create a debate topic but this wouldn't be the place for it.

edit: Almost forgot as it pertained to the discussion
In Eastern Orthodoxy deification is a transformative process whose goal is likeness to or union with God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Orthodox_theology)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The pantheist theological construct can exist in any religion and being "mainstream" doesn't mean correct. I'm aware most christains might be more pan(en)theist instead but they equate Jesus to God himself, same substance etc., lets not try and wiggle them out of the trinity all of a sudden.

I was saying earlier this should be more for discussion cause we are in a DIR. You can create a debate topic but this wouldn't be the place for it.

edit: Almost forgot as it pertained to the discussion
In Eastern Orthodoxy deification is a transformative process whose goal is likeness to or union with God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Orthodox_theology)

Where do you draw the line between discussion and debate?

If I have a different opinion on the accuracy of a subject, it wouldn't be considered a debate unless I am trying to prove accuracy by exchanging giving support for our opinions. If there is no support and we are just hashing (positive idiom) and boasting different opinions, its an argument. If it's sharing different and similar opinions, exchanging information about the subject without motivation for support (which discussions are but, well), and its productive, then it's a discussion. That's just how I know it.

In this discussion, since I am a pantheist, I'd like to keep the discussion. I had bad experiences taking things out of DIRs, so if you'd like to create a debate topic, we can; I approve. However, this is something that doesn't motivate me enough to ask and exchange supporting arguments (debate) or hash out emotional opinions (arguments), just a regular discussion on similar and differing opinions. If that is fine with you?

On that note of discussing differing and similar opinions.

Yes, I agree; earlier I was saying that's the closest I can see Christianity of the gospels as being panentheist. Only because they put god/Jesus over his creation (humans because they sin and creation). Since he doesn't equate himself with creation (the birds, moon, rocks, Muslim Joe, and Hindu Jane), in my opinion I wouldn't consider it pantheism.

The trinity is, in and of itself, pantheism. Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit. However, it becomes panentheism or another appropriate term when it goes beyond that. The trinity is never equated to creation. It is always above or believers would be like us pagans with whom some of us revere creation beyond respect. So, if I were to relate it any closer to pantheism, I'd say panentheism.

If you'd like to exchange different supporting evidence (aka debate), I don't mind you create a thread in the General Debates or Scriptural Debates section. I'm not well versed in scripture as I used to be; so, I'd be going off memory.

What would you like to do?

 

[idav]

Yes, I agree; earlier I was saying that's the closest I can see Christianity of the gospels as being panentheist. Only because they put god/Jesus over his creation (humans because they sin and creation). Since he doesn't equate himself with creation (the birds, moon, rocks, Muslim Joe, and Hindu Jane), in my opinion I wouldn't consider it pantheism.

That is more found in the Gospel of Thomas, that won't be found in the bible since Constantine deemed that heresy centuries ago when they were putting the bible together.
Gospel of Thomas
(77) Jesus said: I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is more found in the Gospel of Thomas, that won't be found in the bible since Constantine deemed that heresy centuries ago when they were putting the bible together.
Gospel of Thomas
(77) Jesus said: I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there.

I'm not familiar with the gospel of Thomas. Only in the movie Stigmata where she says, "The Kingdom of God is in you and all around you, not in a place of brick and stone. Split a piece of wood, and you will find me. Lift a stone and I'll be there."

Beautiful, actually. From that perspective of the gospel of Thomas, I see where you going. I don't know it well enough to say you're wrong.

 

[Nefelie]

Very revealing texts without even having to go to the Gospel of Thomas!

This was just the start. I’ve got more to come

But, since you mentioned it, the Gospel of Thomas is true gold!

Some christains believe Theosis can be achieved, of course it is a heretical view of a "trinity". Gnosis removes the middle-man, and brings humans up to gods level, not bringing god down to ours. […] InEastern Orthodoxydeification is atransformative process whose goal islikeness toorunion withGod.

Yes, Eastern Orthodoxy is more Pantheistic than Western. Starting from the Holy Trinity alone, this is more obvious. Not to mention that the fact alone that it included many Dionysian and Orphic aspects, makes it more Pantheistic. ( post 6 )

And here is more:

I couldn’t find You around me, my God, I was wrong looking for you around, while You were within me - Saint Augustine of Hippo (4th century)

There is no man devoid the Son of God and there is no man besides the Son of God - Saint Justin Popovich (Eastern Orthodox theologian, archimandrite and scholar)

Those who seek God, should not seek for Him around them but within their own self - Saint Maximus the Confessor (6th century)

If you are determined to know God, then you should know thy self - Joseph Bryennios (Byzantine monk of the 15th century)

He who knows him self, is a place and throne of God - Saint Nectarios of Aegina (1846-1920)

Blessing is not to know something about God, but to have God within you - Gregory of Nyssa (bishop of Nyssa 4th century)

This is what God within means: to have with our memory God installed within us - Saint Basil the Great

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