The contributions of the sciences to Religion

[Ben Dhyan]

Learning anything that has not been substantiated is useless and a waste of time. It would be like trying to teach people to cook using their mental power all while being unable to actually demonstrate such a technique actually cooks anything. In the end everyone eats a raw cold meal.

Ok....so I mentioned this before but fwiw, here is a what I learned about my simple prescient dreams...I used to go fishing a few times a week for years... and if I would dream the night before that I caught a crab...I would catch a crab...next time I might dream about catching a few silvery fish and a golden one....and I would catch a few silver bream and a catfish.. I always went with my lady friend and she too would sometimes have fish or crabs dreams the night before and they always play out according to the dream of silvery, golden, or crab. This went on for years and so on our way we always asked each other if there were any fish dreams and if neither of us dreamed of catching anything.....there was about a 95% plus chance we didn't.. and if we did have a fish dream, there was a 95% chance we did. Interesting too that the dream never manifested when I was consciously in a state of anticipation...which I sometimes was when not much was happening...it always happened when my attention was elsewhere and it would only dawn on me as I was hauling it in and I could see the flash of silver, or gold, or crab through the water...

Now as I have explained before, I kept a dream diary for about ten years and I learned a lot about synchronicity and prescient content of dream consciousness, and so I can dismiss out of hand those who have never bothered to learn about the deeper levels of their own mind...

 

[leibowde84]

Haha,,,,so now you change back again....that why you have no credibility leibowde84, you seem to be only interested in being a contrarian pest...

I never changed in the first place. That was all in your head, I guess. I've been saying the same thing this whole time. All you have to do is look back at my comments. I stated that I of course have had experiences you describe as "prescience" (which is why I put it in quotations), but, in my opinion, they were most likely coincidence.

 

[viole]

You asked me where I got the idea that there is a divine. I can just as easily and as justifiably (especially in light of modern science) ask where you get the idea that reality is comprised of relatively isolated bits and pieces?

I see relatvely isolated bits and pieces. I do not see any divinity. So, I don't think there is a symmetry between both (bold) statements. One is less bold than the other.

Whether talking a bout the Big Bang as a singular event, an infinite number of universes, something from “nothing,” “branes” or whatever, there is always and inevitably the premise of a self-existing and indeterminate quantum field. There is no way of getting around it. There is an aversion to calling this field a “first cause” because of its obvious theistic connotation, but semantic connotations aside, that's exactly what it is. And this presumed "first cause" of science and the God of religion are one and the same. Whether we call it "God" or the "quantum field," it is "the circle of infinity whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere."

There is a perfectly valid interpretation of the Universe that does not require any first cause, almost by definition. Not only it is perfectly valid, but it seems more valid than the traditional view of the universe as having a sort of evolution, including beginnings, expansions and things of the sort. Especially if relativity is true. But in order to see that, we have to use a more modern interpretation of what time really is. Namely B-series and the block universe.

The word "divine," like the words "God" and "reality," is an indicator to facilitate communication. It designates an experience without defining or describing that to which it points. Anything said about it is just that person's conceptual interpretation--the reality itself is indefinite. Of course, there is no empirical or objective evidence that the sense of connectedness is indeed genuine, but it is not inconsistent with science and no one seriously denies that it is real, though more often not, it is known secondhand rather than something experienced firsthand. William James understood this quite well.

What our intuition tells us, tends to be very unreliable. i would say that all my brain is able to visualize is wrong, at fundamental level. We have a brain that evolved to survive in a very narrow field of what exists, and has, therefore, no natural capability to visualize what is fundamentally true. It is, basically, an average values calculator unable to understand how the single values that make up the average come from.

You need decades of deep study to understand how something as simple as an electron behaves. And when you are finished, you realize you still cannot visualize it.

I think Plantinga understood that quite well.

Ciao

- viole

 

[mystic64]

One main, overarching contribution is the better understanding of the universe, identifying claims in scripture that were either wrong or not meant to be taken literally. We aren't the center of the universe, we aren't even the center of our solar system. The earth is spherical. Chances are, life is not limited to this planet. Etc.

Very well done Leibowde84! In my opinion of course .

 

[leibowde84]

It is not part of religion. Agnosticism may use them freely, if they like, no compulsion however, whatsoever. Please
Regards

All religions have adherents that use/rely on these things, though.

 

[leibowde84]

It is not part of religion. Agnosticism may use them freely, if they like, no compulsion however, whatsoever. Please
Regards

All religions have adherents that use/rely on these things, though.

 

[mystic64]

The contrbutions of sciences to Religion. Everybody is welcome to give one's valued thoughts here.
Regards

Wikipedia...Relationships vetween religion and science:

The Ahmadiyya movement emphasize that there is no contradiction between Islam and science. For example, Ahmadi Muslims universally accept in principle the process of evolution, albeit divinely guided, and actively promote it. Over the course of several decades the movement has issued various publications in support of the scientific concepts behind the process of evolution, and frequently engages in promoting how religious scriptures, such as the Qur'an, supports the concept.[159] For general purposes, the second Khalifa of the community, Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad says:
The Holy Quran directs attention towards science, time and again, rather than evoking prejudice against it. The Quran has never advised against studying science, lest the reader should become a non-believer; because it has no such fear or concern. The Holy Quran is not worried that if people will learn the laws of nature its spell will break. The Quran has not prevented people from science, rather it states, "Say, 'Reflect on what is happening in the heavens and the earth.'" (Al Younus) [160]

I agree with him !

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I never changed in the first place. That was all in your head, I guess. I've been saying the same thing this whole time. All you have to do is look back at my comments. I stated that I of course have had experiences you describe as "prescience" (which is why I put it in quotations), but, in my opinion, they were most likely coincidence.

Ok...so you think your apparent prescient experiences were likely coincidence...I have no problem with that, they most probably were... I too have had experiences that may or may not have been prescient, but when I say I have had prescient experiences, I mean ones that were really prescient dreams...I mean they were actually prescient. Now I don't care if anyone who has not had a truly prescient experience believes or not...for as the saying goes...the real proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[paarsurrey]

here is a what I learned about my simple prescient dreams...I used to go fishing a few times a week for years... and if I would dream the night before that I caught a crab...I would catch a crab...next time I might dream about catching a few silvery fish and a golden one....and I would catch a few silver bream and a catfish.. I always went with my lady friend and she too would sometimes have fish or crabs dreams the night before and they always play out according to the dream of silvery, golden, or crab. This went on for years and so on our way we always asked each other if there were any fish dreams and if neither of us dreamed of catching anything.....there was about a 95% plus chance we didn't.. and if we did have a fish dream, there was a 95% chance we did. Interesting too that the dream never manifested when I was consciously in a state of anticipation...which I sometimes was when not much was happening...it always happened when my attention was elsewhere and it would only dawn on me as I was hauling it in and I could see the flash of silver, or gold, or crab through the water...
Now as I have explained before, I kept a dream diary for about ten years

Splendid! So, dreams and visions come true.
An ordinary man's truthful dreams that happen in actual are a proof on the truth of the Prophets of G-d.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Wikipedia...Relationships vetween religion and science:

The Ahmadiyya movement emphasize that there is no contradiction between Islam and science. For example, Ahmadi Muslims universally accept in principle the process of evolution, albeit divinely guided, and actively promote it. Over the course of several decades the movement has issued various publications in support of the scientific concepts behind the process of evolution, and frequently engages in promoting how religious scriptures, such as the Qur'an, supports the concept.[159] For general purposes, the second Khalifa of the community, Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad says:
The Holy Quran directs attention towards science, time and again, rather than evoking prejudice against it. The Quran has never advised against studying science, lest the reader should become a non-believer; because it has no such fear or concern. The Holy Quran is not worried that if people will learn the laws of nature its spell will break. The Quran has not prevented people from science, rather it states, "Say, 'Reflect on what is happening in the heavens and the earth.'" (Al Younus) [160]

I agree with him !

Thanks and regards

 

[mystic64]

Well, I certainly hope so.


Thank you, Mystic.

You understood what I said above, don't you? (I doubt Viole did.)

I understand what you are saying, it is just that you are really good it ! Understanding is not generally the scenario in this message board (although it does happen ). Generally the scenario is die hard statements of fact and if there is disagreement, then some sort of a version of more or less charactor assassination is required . So one should enjoy the interaction of personalities and not take things to seriously. I only say this because you are new and you are interesting in positive way ! Again welcome!

 

[mystic64]

Thanks and regards

Paarsurry , you have created a kick tush topic, in my opinion of course. And I did a Google search on this topic's title statement and what I posted was all that I could find . Other than that science seems to be destroying religion as we know it. But then I do not follow religion as we know it, so I agree with Ahmadiyya. And I love science!

 

[leibowde84]

Ok...so you think your apparent prescient experiences were likely coincidence...I have no problem with that, they most probably were... I too have had experiences that may or may not have been prescient, but when I say I have had prescient experiences, I mean ones that were really prescient dreams...I mean they were actually prescient. Now I don't care if anyone who has not had a truly prescient experience believes or not...for as the saying goes...the real proof of the pudding is in the eating.

And, again, I'm merely asking how you differentiate and "know with certainty" that those were "prescience" and not merely coincidences that seemed to be prescience.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Splendid! So, dreams and visions come true.
An ordinary man's truthful dreams that happen in actual are a proof on the truth of the Prophets of G-d.
Regards

Indeed this is true paarsurrey....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And, again, I'm merely asking how you differentiate and "know with certainty" that those were "prescience" and not merely coincidences that seemed to be prescience.

Well ok...this is one of my more extraordinary prescient dreams....it happened in the early hours of the 31st October 1984....the dream was lucid....I was in India in a garden setting watch an Indian lady in a sarong talking to some people seated. Next I found myself in the front row very near to her... Next I am the one talking to the people, I look to my left and see two army men uncover a hidden machine gun and start firing.... Next I could feel the bullets penetrating my body and my legs began to fold... As I felt my life sipping away, I looked directly at the two, but felt no animosity....and I pointed and wagged my finger at them and said..."naughty...naughty"...as I was collapsing...

I was driving along later that day and a newsflash reported the Indira Ghandi had been assassinated by two of her security guard....later I found out that she was in a garden setting, etc... The shooting took place in the afternoon Australian time and so my dream took place about 12 hours before she was assassinated.. I don't remember any previous dreams I've had about India before that time, nor do I remember any after, I am an Australian and have never been to India..

Btw, for those who are interested in dream prescience....here are a few tips... The last dream/s you have before just before you wake up will be the one/s that reflects an event/s that will happen on that day.... If you have a couple, or a few different dreams in sequence before you wake up....the last will be the first event, the second last will occur next, and the third last the third... Dreams in the middle of the night will not manifest the following day but pertain to events in the future. Not all dreams pertain to future events.. As I said in an earlier post about planetary collective consciousness....the dream content does not always pertain to the dreamer directly...for as in the example of my dream of Indira Ghandi's assassination....there were probably many sensitive dreamers who had such a lucid dream about the assassination... Big subject.....

 

[leibowde84]

Well ok...this is one of my more extraordinary prescient dreams....it happened in the early hours of the 31st October 1984....the dream was lucid....I was in India in a garden setting watch an Indian lady in a sarong talking to some people seated. Next I found myself in the front row very near to her... Next I am the one talking to the people, I look to my left and see two army men uncover a hidden machine gun and start firing.... Next I could feel the bullets penetrating my body and my legs began to fold... As I felt my life sipping away, I looked directly at the two, but felt no animosity....and I pointed and wagged my finger at them and said..."naughty...naughty"...as I was collapsing...

I was driving along later that day and a newsflash reported the Indira Ghandi had been assassinated by two of her security guard....later I found out that she was in a garden setting, etc... The shooting took place in the afternoon Australian time and so my dream took place about 12 hours before she was assassinated.. I don't remember any previous dreams I've had about India before that time, nor do I remember any after, I am an Australian and have never been to India..

Btw, for those who are interested in dream prescience....here are a few tips... The last dream/s you have before just before you wake up will be the one/s that reflects an event/s that will happen on that day.... If you have a couple, or a few different dreams in sequence before you wake up....the last will be the first event, the second last will occur next, and the third last the third... Dreams in the middle of the night will not manifest the following day but pertain to events in the future. Not all dreams pertain to future events.. As I said in an earlier post about planetary collective consciousness....the dream content does not always pertain to the dreamer directly...for as in the example of my dream of Indira Ghandi's assassination....there were probably many sensitive dreamers who had such a lucid dream about the assassination... Big subject.....

So, to me that sounds like a coincidence, so I mist be missing something. Can you explain you certainty that it wasnt?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So, to me that sounds like a coincidence, so I mist be missing something. Can you explain you certainty that it wasnt?

You obviously are a time waster....bordering a t****... You are dismissed as such.... Just follow the instructions about the last dream you have before you wake up and pay attention....the proof of the pudding is in the eating.....

 

[gnostic]

The notion that "God" is about belief or something that is believed in is mere superstition. It's looking at the finger and not seeing the moon to which it points. Religion isn't about "beliefs" at all: it's about connecting to the Divine within all of us.

Connecting to the divine to do what exactly?

 

[Shad]

Ok....so I mentioned this before but fwiw, here is a what I learned about my simple prescient dreams...I used to go fishing a few times a week for years... and if I would dream the night before that I caught a crab...I would catch a crab...next time I might dream about catching a few silvery fish and a golden one....and I would catch a few silver bream and a catfish.. I always went with my lady friend and she too would sometimes have fish or crabs dreams the night before and they always play out according to the dream of silvery, golden, or crab. This went on for years and so on our way we always asked each other if there were any fish dreams and if neither of us dreamed of catching anything.....there was about a 95% plus chance we didn't.. and if we did have a fish dream, there was a 95% chance we did. Interesting too that the dream never manifested when I was consciously in a state of anticipation...which I sometimes was when not much was happening...it always happened when my attention was elsewhere and it would only dawn on me as I was hauling it in and I could see the flash of silver, or gold, or crab through the water...

Now as I have explained before, I kept a dream diary for about ten years and I learned a lot about synchronicity and prescient content of dream consciousness, and so I can dismiss out of hand those who have never bothered to learn about the deeper levels of their own mind...

You had a dream about fishing but had prior knowledge you were going fishing the next day.... Nothing special about that. I have dreams about activities I will do the next days since I already know and planned said activities..... It is called memory....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You had a dream about fishing but had prior knowledge you were going fishing the next day.... Nothing special about that. I have dreams about activities I will do the next days since I already know and planned said activities..... It is called memory....

Yawn....go back to sleep Shad... the end is nigh.. So Shad thinks all fisherman remember they will catch no fish next day since they already knew and planned said no activity.....or they already know they will catch a crab and a few catfish but no bream.since they already know and planned said events ....and they remembered to carry it out according to plan ......haha