Koran dated to before Muhamad birth.

[FearGod]

I do believe in God but I admit freely that I cannot prove that. I would never make such an statement because its not true. Absence of proof makes the atheist position very understandable, IMO.

I agree, i don't blame anyone for which religion they have chosen including the non beliefs.

 

[Shad]

you miss me

I mean in that time (before 1400 years) . no one claim that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) copy/paste from Gospel or Torah .

The Jews that did not convert to Islam did not accept his claims. Hence they tested him and he failed their tests. I could see them taking the position that he is just repeating stories he heard.

 

[Godobeyer]

The Jews that did not convert to Islam did not accept his claims. Hence they tested him and he failed their tests. I could see them taking the position that he is just repeating stories he heard.

many of Jews and all religions convert to Islam in that time , others choice not .

they tested him and he failed ?

 

[Shad]

many of Jews and all religions convert to Islam in that time , others choice not .

Yes. However there are reasons why. However my example were of Jewish tribes that existed during his time. They had closer contact than you or I did but did not find his claims convincing. Just as I do not find that claims convincing when a basic mistake in assuming the trinity includes Mary.

they tested him and he failed ?

Yes, one question remained unanswered and it took him 15 days to reply after claiming he would the next day. Islam tradition created an excuse while the Jews did not accept the excuse.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes. However there are reasons why. However my example were of Jewish tribes that existed during his time. They had closer contact than you or I did but did not find his claims convincing. Just as I do not find that claims convincing when a basic mistake in assuming the trinity includes Mary.

every one had his own opinion

For your opinion why he did not claim that he is Messiah to Jews ?

Why he did not accused the Jews for killing Jesus (pbuh) ?

Yes, one question remained unanswered and it took him 15 days to reply after claiming he would the next day. Islam tradition created an excuse while the Jews did not accept the excuse.

ah , that's story told in Quran about group of youth believers God made them travel in time more than 300 years forward (future).

anyway
how suppose that someone critic him-self (that forget telling "God willing ") to Jews !!!!

18/32-24
And never say of anything, "Indeed, I will do that tomorrow,"Except [when adding], "If Allah wills." And remember your Lord when you forget [it] and say, "Perhaps my Lord will guide me to what is nearer than this to right conduct."


I have this question : did this story about found in Jewish History too ?

 

[Milton Platt]

There are claims that the paper written on are dated before islam and masallah there are claims of any kind for everything

But there is a difference between an unsubstantiated claim and one which has evidence to back the claim up. Is this one single dating enough evidence? It could be argued that it is not. What is the age of the ink? In other words, how long had the paper been around when it was written on? I'm an atheist, so the dates one way or the other don't make much difference to me. But caution would be in order until this has had time to be reexamined by the scientific community. Of course, no amount of evidence will suffice those who prefer to believe based on faith. Faith requires no evidence. With credible evidence faith is unnecessary.

 

[SuperScript22]

Along with this, it should be noted that Uthman didn't create the first written Quran, he standardised the Quran. Many copies preexisted the standardisation according to Islamic history, in fact Uthman demanded they all be burned.

This is actually an argument against those who say the Quran has not been changed since its time. When in fact there's enough evidence that not only suggests the Quran was changed, but was written by men just like any other religious books and not by some super divine mumbo jumbo.

 

[Augustus]

Do you know of any Syriac sources which mirror the context of the manuscripts few verses?

This book is a good introduction to the late-antique context or some of the material.

https://serdargunes.files.wordpress...-historical-context-gabriel-said-reynolds.pdf

Part of the manuscript is Surat al-Kahf which has similarities with Syriac Alexander Legend and the & 7 Sleepers of Ephesus. The parts that relate to Dhul Qarnayan (Alexander) are not in this manuscript and are often considered, in the Islamic tradition, to have been later revelations. Chapters 5 and 8 of the above document relate to this, 8 is especially interesting as the Alexander Legend

Al-Kahf contains 3 stories, about Moses, the sleepers, and Dhul Qarnayan, and in the Islamic tradition theses were said to be revealed in response to questions/challenges from 'people of the book'.

There is plenty on the Quran that links to its emergence in the multicultural and religiously heterogenous Middle East of late antiquity. As well as the previously mentioned myths that are alluded to there are also examples related to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Protevangeleum of James and Gospel of pseudo-Matthew that relate to Mary. The 2nd part in the manuscript relates to Surat Maryam, discussed in Ch 5 of the link I provided above.

Another couple of articles about early Islam

http://chaserobinson.net/files/2014/03/HeilgeschichteMarch2014.pdf

https://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp


Also various articles about early Islam here, some of which start getting a bit more technical/specific:


https://nyu.academia.edu/RobertHoyland (Robert Hoyland's books Seeing Islam as others saw it and the Arab conquests are excellent also)

https://slu.academia.edu/CarlosSegovia

A good book that shows Jewish/Christian conflict in the Hijaz in the years leading up to the founding of Islam is The Throne of Adulis by Glen Bowersock.

It is worth noting that this is an area of study where there are, unsurprisingly, many disagreements. It is also an area where, due to the time passed and the lack of contemporary physical evidence, it is difficult to make hypotheses that are not in some way tentative/speculative. Even among academics, never mind religious believers, there are often counterarguments to many points raised. If you like history though, it's a very interesting time period.

Even if someone accepts that the Quran is the perfect word of God, it is pretty clear that God chose to reveal a religion that exactly fits the time and place it was revealed in, but I suppose this is unsurprising.

 

[Augustus]

Can you provide the corresponding text chapter/verse from the Quran in use? Please
Thanks and regards

The document contains these verses. Ordering and wording does not differ significantly in between the document and the Quran we have today as far as I am aware.

verses 23–31 of Surah 18 Al-kahf

And do not say, regarding anything, 'I am going to do that tomorrow,' (23)but only, 'If God will'; and mention thy Lord, when thou forgettest, and say, 'It may be that my Lord will guide me unto something nearer to rectitude than this.') (24)And they tarried in the Cave three hundred years, and to that they added nine more. (25)Say: 'God knows very well how long they tarried. To Him belongs the Unseen in the heavens and in the earth. How well He sees! How well He hears! They have no protector, apart from Him, and He associates in His government no one.' (26)Recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord; no man can change His words. Apart from Him, thou wilt find no refuge. (27) And do not say, regarding anything, 'I am going to do that tomorrow,' (23)but only, 'If God will'; and mention thy Lord, when thou forgettest, and say, 'It may be that my Lord will guide me unto something nearer to rectitude than this.') (24)And they tarried in the Cave three hundred years, and to that they added nine more. (25)Say: 'God knows very well how long they tarried. To Him belongs the Unseen in the heavens and in the earth. How well He sees! How well He hears! They have no protector, apart from Him, and He associates in His government no one.' (26)Recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord; no man can change His words. Apart from Him, thou wilt find no refuge. (27)


verses 91–98 of Surah 19 Maryam

that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; (91)and it behoves not the All-merciful to take a son. (92)None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-merciful as a servant;(93)He has indeed counted them, and He has numbered them exactly. (94)Every one of them shall come to Him upon the Day of Resurrection, all alone.(95)Surely those who believe and do deeds of righteousness -- unto them the All-merciful shall assign love. (96)Now We have made it easy by thy tongue that thou mayest bear good tidings thereby to the godfearing, and warn a people stubborn. (97)And how many a generation We destroyed before them! Dost thou perceive so much as one of them, or hear of them a whisper? (98)



first 12 verses of Surah 20 Ta-Ha

Ta Ha (1)We have not sent down the Koran upon thee for thee to be unprosperous, (2)but only as a reminder to him who tears, (3)a revelation from Him who created the earth and the high heavens; (4)the All-compassionate sat Himself upon the Throne; to Him belongs (5)all that is in the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and all that is underneath the soil. (6)Be thou loud in thy speech, yet surely He knows the secret and that yet more hidden. (7)God -- there is no god but He. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. (8)Hast thou received the story of Moses? (9)When he saw a fire, and said to his family, 'Tarry you here; I observe a fire. Perhaps I shall bring you a brand from it, or I shall find at the fire guidance.' (10)When he came to it, a voice cried, 'Moses, (11)I am thy Lord; put off thy shoes; thou art in the holy valley, Towa. (12)

(Arberry Translation)

 

[Shad]

For your opinion why he did not claim that he is Messiah to Jews ?

He wasn't a Jew.

Why he did not accused the Jews for killing Jesus (pbuh) ?

Eastern Christianity was far more Gnostic than Western. Ideas such as Jesus not dying were far more common. As well as ideas that his body was an illusion. These ideas existed for centuries even before the so-called canonization of the Bible Roman leadership.

ah , that's story told in Quran about group of youth believers God made them travel in time more than 300 years forward (future).

Which is a story which existed for centuries before Islam.

anyway
how suppose that someone critic him-self (that forget telling "God willing ") to Jews !!!!

I have no idea what you mean.

18/32-24
And never say of anything, "Indeed, I will do that tomorrow,"Except [when adding], "If Allah wills." And remember your Lord when you forget [it] and say, "Perhaps my Lord will guide me to what is nearer than this to right conduct."


I have this question : did this story about found in Jewish History too ?

Yes. Paralipomena Ieremiae which was from the 2nd century AD

 

[Shad]

This book is a good introduction to the late-antique context or some of the material.

Part of the manuscript is Surat al-Kahf which has similarities with Syriac Alexander Legend and the & 7 Sleepers of Ephesus. The parts that relate to Dhul Qarnayan (Alexander) are not in this manuscript and are often considered, in the Islamic tradition, to have been later revelations. Chapters 5 and 8 of the above document relate to this, 8 is especially interesting as the Alexander Legend

I should of took a closer look at the manuscript. Good eye.

There is plenty on the Quran that links to its emergence in the multicultural and religiously heterogenous Middle East of late antiquity. As well as the previously mentioned myths that are alluded to there are also examples related to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Protevangeleum of James and Gospel of pseudo-Matthew that relate to Mary. The 2nd part in the manuscript relates to Surat Maryam, discussed in Ch 5 of the link I provided above.

I will go over chapter 5 again, thanks for the links.

A good book that shows Jewish/Christian conflict in the Hijaz in the years leading up to the founding of Islam is The Throne of Adulis by Glen Bowersock.

This book is new to me so thanks for mentioning it

It is worth noting that this is an area of study where there are, unsurprisingly, many disagreements. It is also an area where, due to the time passed and the lack of contemporary physical evidence, it is difficult to make hypotheses that are not in some way tentative/speculative. Even among academics, never mind religious believers, there are often counterarguments to many points raised. If you like history though, it's a very interesting time period.

I completely agree. In part a lot of these issues are caused by the sudden jumps in textual evidence which is discovered. there is also the history of repression of these sources within Christianity. Another issue is the Islamic tradition which is treated differently by many people. From unreliable to reliable and anywhere between.

Even if someone accepts that the Quran is the perfect word of God, it is pretty clear that God chose to reveal a religion that exactly fits the time and place it was revealed in, but I suppose this is unsurprising.

Being fit for the environment is obvious just using the Quran.

 

[Godobeyer]

He wasn't a Jew.

that's very easy
So he could claim that he had Jew relatives, and claim he is Messiah .

or claim that he is Messiah ,whatever .

Eastern Christianity was far more Gnostic than Western. Ideas such as Jesus not dying were far more common. As well as ideas that his body was an illusion. These ideas existed for centuries even before the so-called canonization of the Bible Roman leadership.

I mean Quran denied that Jesus (pbuh) killed in cross .

Which is a story which existed for centuries before Islam.

the source of that story please ?

I have no idea what you mean.

I mean , in that verse of Quran , God critic that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) forget to say " Inshallah" (God willing"

Yes. Paralipomena Ieremiae which was from the 2nd century AD

you seems misunderstand my question

I mean the story of Jews "Yes, one question remained unanswered and it took him 15 days to reply after claiming he would the next day. Islam tradition created an excuse while the Jews did not accept the excuse."

 

[Shad]

that's very easy
So he could claim that he had Jew relatives, and claim he is Messiah .

Nope, being a Jew has very strict social and family restriction. Being related to one does not make one a Jew, otherwise I would be one.

I mean Quran denied that Jesus (pbuh) killed in cross .

Which is just a reformatting of prior Gnostic ideas.

the source of that story please ?

It is mentioned in the post, read it again.

I mean , in that verse of Quran , God critic that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) forget to say " Inshallah" (God willing"

Ad hoc rescue and dismissed as such.

you seems misunderstand my question

I mean the story of Jews "Yes, one question remained unanswered and it took him 15 days to reply after claiming he would the next day. Islam tradition created an excuse while the Jews did not accept the excuse."

Tafsir Ibn Kathi and Sahih al-Bukhari

These sources also show Mo provides unscientific answers which were refuted by biology

 

[Godobeyer]

Nope, being a Jew has very strict social and family restriction. Being related to one does not make one a Jew, otherwise I would be one.



Which is just a reformatting of prior Gnostic ideas.



It is mentioned in the post, read it again.



Ad hoc rescue and dismissed as such.

ok thanks for explain to me your opinion , inspite that we disagree

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

that's it , i thought you bring it from Jewish History/source !!

 

[Shad]

ok thanks for explain to me your opinion , inspite that we disagree

My opinion is well supported, yours is not.

that's it , i thought you bring it from Jewish History/source !!

No I was talking about the seven sleepers being from Jewish history. My bad as I placed the reply in the wrong stop. My mistake.

 

[Godobeyer]

My opinion is well supported, yours is not.

lol


that's was suppose discuss (as chat) , that's does not need support

and so if you answser me a question that you support your opinion , sorry this is childhood .

No I was talking about the seven sleepers being from Jewish history. My bad as I placed the reply in the wrong stop. My mistake.

this need support

I mean Jewish source to that story .

I mean Tafsir Ibn Kathi and Sahih al-Bukhari that you posted before are Muslim source .[/QUOTE]

 

[Shad]

lol


that's was suppose discuss (as chat) , that's does not need support

Sorry it does not work this way. Otherwise I could state any opinion nomatter how unsupported is of value. It is not.

and so if you answser me a question that you support your opinion , sorry this is childhood .

No my opinion is supported by evidence of prior tradition that predate Islam.

this need support

Which is. I mentioned the exact text for both my mistake and the corrected answer. You are not reading what I have posted. Not my problem.

I mean Tafsir Ibn Kathi and Sahih al-Bukhari that you posted before are Muslim source .

Read what I posted. You are not understand what I have said.

 

[columbus]

Was Jesus a rich powerful warlord ?

No. That's why He accomplished almost nothing.

He was some kind of anti Roman rabble rouser. I think He was a recruiter for the really violent people, but nobody knows. He was executed by the Romans for sedition. He left nothing but a scattered handful of apocalyptic cults. Judea had many of those. Most of them vanished when Rome destroyed Judea. The cult of Jesus probably would have to.
Except a guy named Saul came along. He renamed himself Paul and invented a new religion based on a garbled version of the teachings of Jesus' following. It was much more gentile friendly, so it survived the diaspora. It grew slowly, in multiple very different versions. Christians did not agree about even the most basic things, like the resurrection, trinitarianism, or Jesus Message.

Until a rich and powerful warlord came along, Emperor Constantine. He wanted to use Christianity as a political tool. So he pulled together a batch of "bishops" to hammer out the true Christianity, and they did. Then he gave them license to destroy all the other "heretical" versions. Which they did, solidifying their power over an increasingly rich and powerful institution The Church.

This is a very simple history of the creation of Christianity. But without a rich and powerful warlord modern Christianity would not exist. Rather like Islam, it was a tool.
Tom

 

[FearGod]

No. That's why He accomplished almost nothing.

He was some kind of anti Roman rabble rouser. I think He was a recruiter for the really violent people, but nobody knows. He was executed by the Romans for sedition. He left nothing but a scattered handful of apocalyptic cults. Judea had many of those. Most of them vanished when Rome destroyed Judea. The cult of Jesus probably would have to.
Except a guy named Saul came along. He renamed himself Paul and invented a new religion based on a garbled version of the teachings of Jesus' following. It was much more gentile friendly, so it survived the diaspora. It grew slowly, in multiple very different versions. Christians did not agree about even the most basic things, like the resurrection, trinitarianism, or Jesus Message.

Until a rich and powerful warlord came along, Emperor Constantine. He wanted to use Christianity as a political tool. So he pulled together a batch of "bishops" to hammer out the true Christianity, and they did. Then he gave them license to destroy all the other "heretical" versions. Which they did, solidifying their power over an increasingly rich and powerful institution The Church.

This is a very simple history of the creation of Christianity. But without a rich and powerful warlord modern Christianity would not exist. Rather like Islam, it was a tool.
Tom

Why then the powerful rich warlord the Emperor Constantine didn't become the prophet than using the weak poor man Jesus as being the prophet ?

 

[columbus]

Why then the powerful rich warlord the Emperor Constantine didn't become the prophet than using the weak poor man Jesus as being the prophet ?

Good question. I have opinions, but that is a more details question. Likely @outhouse has a much better informed explanation of Constantine's personal life.

One thing Muhammad apparently learned from the Christians is how much better it is to say that you are improving an old religion. Rather than say that you are inventing a new one, even when you are.
Tom