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Morals were stolen by religions, not created by them

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Christianity only has the morals they have today, only because they had to drop all that which wasn't moral, such as owning slaves.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
So we should mention Socrates and Plato, and before then the authors of the Babilonian Epic of Gilgamesh; the Greek Homer; the Nordic Eddas' authors and, sure several other nam,es that are usually associated with religion.
It is the responsibility of the OP either to revise the post or name the first philosopher, who was not a religious figure, who wrote something on morals that spread far and wide. Before such a person; was every human an immoral person?
OP is simply wrong.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
No, you're not turning this around. What is the evidence for your claim? If it is dependent on my personal opinions, it's not evidence for your claim. So are you making a claim, or not? There's no point in producing a "counter" example if there is no example. What "advanced animal societies" have demonstrable rules against murder, and how can you demonstrate that those animals had atheist philosophies? And when did humans acquire this rule from those societies of animals, and how can you demonstrate that those societies were atheist?

Don't worry, you don't actually have to produce all that. That you aren't sure whether the rule is "thousands" or "millions" of years old makes it clear that you are speculating, not deducing. And they have a word for folks who speculate on the basis of belief whether or not evidence can support that belief...

And no, a premonotheistic society proves nothing. You said "religion", not monotheism. If you're changing your argument because you knew you couldn't defend it, be honest about it.

I agree with you. OP is wrong.
Regards
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Here's an equal opportunity challenge for folks from any religion:

Can you name a moral that originated from a religion?

As far as I know, the morals stated in scripture were stolen from the known philosophies of the time. This is an important question, because one of religion's major claims is that mankind would be adrift if not for supernaturally "gifted" morals. If - in fact - religions' morals were not original, then that claim is groundless...

I don't think founding morals is what's important here, but it is promoting them and having them as part of organized teachings and practices. Religion is something that makes people devoted and devotion to morals makes them taken, applied and considered seriously.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So I agree, the origins of morality are murky at best. But what we know for sure is that they weren't originally revealed by a modern god.

I doubt that the classical monotheists view their god as a "modern god." According to their teachings, their god is the first principle, the creator of everything. It existed long before it was revealed to humans, and if we are to respect their theological point of view, I'm not sure it is fair to make this statement. The morals as revealed by their one-god existed from the beginning, just as their god does.

But honestly, I'm only speculating on the theology here. I'm not a classical monotheist, but I know I shouldn't approach that god-concept from my own perspective. I mean, from my own point of view, I actually agree with you as I consider the one-god to be a newer one, but I really doubt that his how the actual advocates of the position would see things within their own theology.
 

morphesium

Active Member
Here's an equal opportunity challenge for folks from any religion:

Can you name a moral that originated from a religion?

As far as I know, the morals stated in scripture were stolen from the known philosophies of the time. This is an important question, because one of religion's major claims is that mankind would be adrift if not for supernaturally "gifted" morals. If - in fact - religions' morals were not original, then that claim is groundless...


The greatest tragedy in mankind’s entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion. —Arthur C. Clarke

Science . . . has been accused of undermining morals— but wrongly. The ethical behavior of man is better based on sympathy, education and social relationships, and requires no support from religion. Man’s plight would, indeed, be sad if he had to be kept in order through fear of punishment and hope of rewards after death. —Albert Einstein

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. —Steven Weinberg

“…. Too often religion has been an aphrodisiac for horror, a Benzedrine for bestiality. At its best it has lifted spirits and raised spires. At its worst it has turned entire civilizations into cemeteries". —Phillip Adams

Religion is the dirtiest politics ever.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
mestemia -

At what point does a behavior become common knowledge? In my experience on PR and listening to countless debates between the religious and atheists, a question brought up over and over again by the religious takes the form: "if you atheists don't have my god to guide you, how do you know right from wrong?'.

Are you saying you aren't familiar with this line of debate?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I don't think founding morals is what's important here, but it is promoting them and having them as part of organized teachings and practices. Religion is something that makes people devoted and devotion to morals makes them taken, applied and considered seriously.

I'm not sure I see how you're connecting the dots here?...

How is it that you get from religion to taking morals seriously? Is it your opinion of humanity that we are inherently immoral?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It is the responsibility of the OP either to revise the post or name the first philosopher, who was not a religious figure, who wrote something on morals that spread far and wide. Before such a person; was every human an immoral person?
OP is simply wrong.
Regards

Hi paarsurrey,

In your opinion, how did mankind come to know of morality in the first place? Was it because of scripture? Was it something your god gave us innately?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member

Thanks for providing the information.
So the first philosopher as per the above information is Hesiod who lived in 7th century. BC.
If we go byf the OP, the first philosopher who gave morality to the world happened to exist in the 7th century BC.
So before Hesiod nobody knew anything about morality. Is that a correct premise?
I don't think so.
Regards
 

Musty

Active Member
Here's an equal opportunity challenge for folks from any religion:

Can you name a moral that originated from a religion?

As far as I know, the morals stated in scripture were stolen from the known philosophies of the time. This is an important question, because one of religion's major claims is that mankind would be adrift if not for supernaturally "gifted" morals. If - in fact - religions' morals were not original, then that claim is groundless...

Generally speaking I find the moralising behaviour of religions to be largely unhelpful since it tends to focus on things that have little or no relevance to achieving peace of mind or treating others with compassion. More often than not they are a arbitrary set of rules that people are expected to follow in order to be deemed by their religion as living correctly with some kind of promised reward in the afterlife.

Personally I prefer the five precepts in Buddhist (Don't kill/harm, steal, lie, cause harm through sexual misconduct or use intoxicants) since they are guidelines for your own peace of mind. As far as I'm aware there is no claim within the Buddhist teachings that these teaching originated from Buddhism, only that they are a good idea to follow if you wish to have peace of mind. The view that religion has a monopoly on morals tends to be fairly dominant amongst the followers of the Abraham religions though I can't really comment on other because I don't have much experience with them.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Here's an equal opportunity challenge for folks from any religion:

Can you name a moral that originated from a religion?

As far as I know, the morals stated in scripture were stolen from the known philosophies of the time. This is an important question, because one of religion's major claims is that mankind would be adrift if not for supernaturally "gifted" morals. If - in fact - religions' morals were not original, then that claim is groundless...

You can't ''steal'' morals.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Thanks for providing the information.
So the first philosopher as per the above information is Hesiod who lived in 7th century. BC.
If we go byf the OP, the first philosopher who gave morality to the world happened to exist in the 7th century BC.
So before Hesiod nobody knew anything about morality. Is that a correct premise?
I don't think so.
Regards

You're exactly right, and that's the whole point.
Someone influenced Hesiod and that someone was likely influenced by someone before him and so on...

Are our moral understandings today the same as they were 10,000 years ago? What about 1,000 years ago? 500 years?
Are our moral understandings today the same as they were 50 years ago?

The point is that thought, and our very understanding of the world around us, everything down to our moral codes are explained by a combination of personal experience and something called "standing on the shoulders of giants." You would know nothing of philosophic debate were it not for the pioneers in the field before you. You would know nothing of your religion, even, were it not for the scribes who believed what they believed and wrote what they thought was important down on paper. Our morals, like our knowledge in other areas of lives, comes to us as adaptations of adaptations of adaptations.

There was no first philosopher like there was no first man... Unless of course you consider the leaders of a baboon troop who enforce social order philosophers... They obviously have rules which they have made and they punish those members of the group who don't abide by those rules. But would you call them philosophers? Why or why not? They do the same things that you or I do in a social setting. Who gave the baboons their social and moral code?
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I'm not sure I see how you're connecting the dots here?...

How is it that you get from religion to taking morals seriously? Is it your opinion of humanity that we are inherently immoral?

What makes religious people do things a religion teaches just because that religion says so, is devotion to what that religion teaches. Devotion is serious.

If a religion makes one do supposedly bad things without questioning just because that religion tells them to do it, which is something some non-religious people use to criticize religious people, mind you, why wouldn't the same standard be considered for supposedly good things the religious people have in their religion; e.g. good morals found in that religion? If not, it would be a double standard.

And, saying that religion gives morals and makes one take it seriously, does not mean that humanity is inherently immoral. How did you come to that conclusion?
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You can't ''steal'' morals.

I'll ask you the same question: Have you not heard - hundreds of times when a religious person is debating an atheist: "If you don't believe in my god, how can you know right from wrong?"
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I believe stealing ideas would be if claimed to be owned by those who do not own it. The act of promoting something is never a bad thing by default. I don't see religions do that with morals.

All in all, just being human means having the sense of being moral. It is not that religion exclusively stands for morals.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
mestemia -

At what point does a behavior become common knowledge? In my experience on PR and listening to countless debates between the religious and atheists, a question brought up over and over again by the religious takes the form: "if you atheists don't have my god to guide you, how do you know right from wrong?'.

Are you saying you aren't familiar with this line of debate?
How does this tie in to your claims of theft and groundlessness?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I'll ask you the same question: Have you not heard - hundreds of times when a religious person is debating an atheist: "If you don't believe in my god, how can you know right from wrong?"
Yes I've got this quite a few times, even here on RF.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
If a religion makes one do supposedly bad things without questioning just because that religion tells them to do it, which is something some non-religious people use to criticize religious people, mind you, why wouldn't the same standard be considered for supposedly good things the religious people have in their religion; e.g. good morals found in that religion? If not, it would be a double standard.

I think that's a fair point and we have to give credit where credit is due.
But I think the larger issue here that Icehorse is trying to get to is where Morality comes from. His question, essentially, is "Where/When/How did morals arise?"
 
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