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Materialism is the best explanation for reality

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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
They don't. Many theories in the social sciences, for example, aren't concerned with "material" phenomena and thus can be (and indeed must be) formulated independently of any assumptions about whether they are reducible to material explanations (i.e., whether or not economic booms or recessions can in principle be explained in terms of the dynamics of sub-atomic constituents). In fact, one of the most successful theories in physics (statistical mechanics) is explicitly immaterialistic in that it deals with systems that are mathematical idealizations of physical systems. Quantum mechanics, at least canonically, is even worse: a quantum system is a purely mathematical entity and quantum mechanics irreducibly statistical (the "systems" it describes aren't real but are vectors in an infinite-dimensional complex space that are "observed" by mathematical functions called Hermitian operators in order to relate particular experimental designs to measurements).

Of course, materialism is mostly a philosophical view, and we don't generally even use the term or consider the issues, as (unfortunately) too many of us have neither familiarity with nor training in philosophy or metaphysics, leaving such issues mostly to those with a scientific background but who are philosophers of science (or worse, philosophers without scientific backgrounds). For example:
"materialism is waning in a number of significant respects—one of which is the ever-growing number of major philosophers who reject materialism or at least have strong sympathies with anti-materialist views. It is of course commonly thought that over the course of the last sixty or so years materialism achieved hegemony in academic philosophy, and this is no doubt right by certain measures—for example, in absolute number of self-identified materialist philosophers of mind or in absolute number of books and journal articles defending materialism. It is therefore surprising that an examination of the major philosophers active in this period reveals that a majority, or something approaching a majority, either rejected materialism or had serious and specific doubts about its ultimate viability. The following is just a partial sampling of these philosophers, more or less in order of birth.
Bertrand Russell, Rudolf Carnap, Alonzo Church, Kurt Gödel, Nelson Goodman, Paul Grice, Stuart Hampshire, Roderick Chisholm, Benson Mates, Peter Strawson, Hilary Putnam, John Searle, Jerrold Katz, Alvin Plantinga, Charles Parsons, Jaegwon Kim, George Myro, Thomas Nagel, Robert Adams, Hugh Mellor, Saul Kripke, Eli Hirsch, Ernest Sosa, Stephen Schiffer, Bas van Fraassen, John McDowell, Peter Unger, Derek Parfit, Crispin Wright, Laurence BonJour, Michael Jubien, Nancy Cartwright, Bob Hale, Kit Fine, Tyler Burge, Terence Horgan, Colin McGinn, Robert Brandom, Nathan Salmon, Joseph Levine, Timothy Williamson, Mark Johnston, Paul Boghossian, Stephen Yablo, Joseph Almog, Keith DeRose, Tim Crane, John Hawthorne, Richard Heck, David Chalmers."

from the editors' introduction to Coons, R. C., & Bealer, G. (Eds.) (2010). The Waning of Materialism. Oxford University Press.


True. For example, about the closest we can get in the sciences to “proof” is found in Bell’s inequality, which “proves” that if we find particular correlations between space-like separated measurements of systems than the only explanation is nonlocality. This, of course, isn’t true: one can abandon realism instead, but as that would be an abandonment of an assumption to all scientific theories very few opt for this (none that I know of are physicists). The problem is that nonlocality entails some "cause" behind the dynamics of systems that isn't "materialistic". Newtonian gravitation was nonlocal, but at least it was "something" (i.e., it was an effect which was so constant in its influence on mechanics that all motion could be explained in terms of this force as a singular effect). Nonlocality isn't a force, but a surprising and seemingly paradoxical feature of the universe that has no singular generalization the way Newtonian gravitation did. It can't be used to explain the dynamics of systems (Bell's inequality, for example, was derived from the mathematics of quantum mechanics, and first violated some 20 years later by Aspect et al.). It isn't even clear how to approach describing it (nonlocality is sometimes considered to be superluminal effects/processes, instead of effects/processes that occur in "no-time"). But there is no "material" explanation for it, and indeed it violates classical causation.




Classical physics, including the "law of gravity", is wrong. It is true that our incomplete knowledge of physics hasn't provided us with an adequate replacement, as gravitation per se doesn't exist in general relativity but we have haven't been able to incorporate GR into quantum physics. However, regardless of this lack of an adequate replacement, the "law of gravity" is still just plain wrong. It is not consistent with any theory of modern physics, as it predicts that every electron in the universe would plummet into the nuclei each orbits in an instant. Thus every second atoms continue to exist provide as many counter-examples to the "law of gravity" as there are atoms in the universe.




...that I linked to a free version of a peer-reviewed paper. Would you like more? A pure assertion is making so inane and ill-informed statement about complex systems reducing to algorithms as you did (which contradicts the foundations of relational biology) without evidence (and then thinking that producing a bunch of popular science garbage or other popular, non-technical literature is somehow indicative of anything other than an ability to use internet search engines. Even those scientists in relevant fields who believe that life and evolutionary processes can be reduced to computable models (algorithms are by definition computable) are well-aware that nothing like this is remotely closer to being shown.


No, they haven't. Not in the technical sense, as we remain unable to create complete models of single cells (which, as Robert Rosen and followers argued, is impossible; they are [M,R]-systems and closed to efficient causation).


No, they aren't. Computational neuroscience (part of what I do) involves models of neurons and neuronal networks, and in fact entire software environments like NEURON exist solely for creating neural models and whole fields in HCI involve the creation of Neuromorphic systems, BCIs, etc. But all these are MODELS or involve interfaces that are neither models, nor simulations, and tell us relatively little about the brain.




“We have demonstrated, for the first time to our knowledge, that computations performed and shaped by the dynamics of charges are radically different than computations in digital computers.”
Aur, D., & Jog, M. S. (2010). Neuroelectrodynamics: Understanding the Brain Language (Biomedical and Health Research Vol. 74). IOS Press.

Louie, A. H. (2005). Any material realization of the (M, R)-systems must have noncomputable models. Journal of integrative neuroscience, 4(04), 423-436.

"while leading computationalists have shown considerable ingenuity in elaborating and defending the conception of minds as computers, they have not always been attentive to the study of thought processes themselves. Their underlying attitude has been that no theoretical alternative is possible...The essays collected here are intended to demonstrate that this attitude is no longer justified."
Fetzer, J. H. (2001). Computers and cognition: Why minds are not machines (Studies in Cognitive Systems Vol. 25). Springer.

“The brain is not a computer, nor is the world an unambiguous piece of tape defining an effective procedure and constituting “symbolic information.” Such a selectional brain system is endlessly more responsive and plastic than a coded system.”
Edelman, G. M. (1999). Building a Picture of the Brain. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 882(1), 68-89.


“no formal system is able to generate anything even remotely mind-like. The asymmetry between the brain and the computer is complete, all comparisons are flawed, and the idea of a computer-generated consciousness is nonsense.”
Torey, Z. (2009). The crucible of consciousness: An integrated theory of mind and brain. Cambridge: MIT press.


“To understand why neurons and computers are fundamentally different, we must bear in mind that modern computers are algorithmic, whereas the brain and neurons are not.”
Tse, P. (2013). The neural basis of free will: Criterial causation. Mit Press.

“The free will theorem supports a powerful challenge to the scientific credentials of determinism, by showing, on certain well-supported assumptions, that two cornerstones of contemporary science, namely (1) acceptance of the scientific method as a reliable way of finding out about the world, and (2) relativity theory’s exclusion of faster-than-light transmission of information, taken together, conflict with determinism in both its versions. Belief in determinism may thus come to be seen as notably unscientific.”
Hodgson, D. (2012). Rationality + Consciousness = Free Will (Philosophy of Mind). Oxford University Press.

“The view that the brain does not compute Turing-computable-functions is still a form of wide mechanism in Copeland’s sense, but it is more encompassing than Copeland’s, because it includes both Copeland’s hypercomputationalism and the view that mental capacities are not explained by neural computations but by neural processes that are not computational. Perhaps brains are simply not computing mechanisms but some other kinds of mechanisms. This view fits well with contemporary theoretical neuroscience, where much of the most rigorous and sophisticated work assigns no explanatory role to computation”
Piccinini, G. (2007). Computationalism, the Church–Turing thesis, and the Church–Turing fallacy. Synthese, 154(1), 97-120.

“Referring to the ‘widespread belief ... in many scientific circles ... that the brain is a computer,’ neurobiologist Gerald Edelman (2006) insists that ‘this belief is mistaken,’ for a number of reasons, principal among which are that ‘the brain does not operate by logical rules’ (p. 21). Jerome Bruner (1996), a founder of cognitive science itself, yet, coincidentally, a key figure in the emergence of narrative psychology, challenges the ability of ‘informationprocessing’ to account for ‘the messy, ambiguous, and context-sensitive processes of meaning-making’ (p. 5). Psychologist Daniel Goleman (1995), author of the popular book Emotional Intelligence, asserts that cognitive scientists have been so ‘seduced by the computer as the operative model of mind’ (pp. 40f.) that they have forgotten that, ‘in reality, the brain’s wetware is awash in a messy, pulsating puddle of neurochemicals’ (p. 40f.) which is ‘nothing like the sanitized, orderly silicon that has spawned the guiding metaphor for mind’ (pp. 40–41).”
Randall, W. L. (2007). From Computer to Compost: Rethinking Our Metaphors for Memory. Theory & psychology, 17(5), 611-633.

“Semantic ambiguity exists in real-world processes of life and mind...Thus, it is feasible to rationally investigate a real-world semantic process, such as the interaction between synaptic communication and NDN, by placing the process into a modeling relation with an impredicative model, such as a hyperset process, and learn novel (albeit qualitative rather than quantitative) things about the real-world process by asking questions about the model.
What is not feasible is serious investigation of such processes by algorithmic computation. Algorithms disallow internal semantics, and specifically prohibit ambiguity. In other words, in a fundamental manner, the entailment structures of algorithms differ from the entailment structures of processes of life and mind. Thus, algorithmic descriptions of such processes are superficial, capturing the incidental syntax but not the essential semantics...
No computer program, no matter how cleverly designed, has an entailment structure like a mind, or even a prion.”
Kercel, S. W. (2003, June). Softer than soft computing. In Soft Computing in Industrial Applications, 2003. SMCia/03. Proceedings of the 2003 IEEE International Workshop on (pp. 27-32). IEEE.

“Today’s programs—at best—solve specific problems. Where humans have broad and flexible capabilities, computers do not.
Perhaps we’ve been going about it in the wrong way. For 50 years, computer scientists have been trying to make computers intelligent while mostly ignoring the one thing that is intelligent: the human brain. Even so-called neural network programming techniques take as their starting point a highly simplistic view of how the brain operates.”
Hawkins, J. (2007). Why Can't a Computer be more Like a Brain?. Spectrum, IEEE, 44(4), 21-26.

“there is no evidence for a computer program consisting of effective procedures that would control a brain’s input, output, and behavior. Artificial intelligence doesn’t work in real brains. There is no logic and no precise clock governing the outputs of our brains no matter how regular they may appear.”
Edelman, G. M. (2006). Second nature: Brain science and human knowledge. Yale University Press.

"the brain is not a computer, yet it manipulates information...while von Neumann and others invented computers with mimicking the brain in mind (von Neumann 1958), the brain does not appear to behave as a Turing Machine "
Danchin, A. (2009). Information of the chassis and information of the program in synthetic cells. Systems and synthetic biology, 3(1-4), 125-134.

“Determinism would be the crucial issue if the early modern atomist–reductionist picture were true. That is, if the causal capacities of complex entities were nothing but the combined causal effects if the entities’ constituents, and if the most basic constituents operated according to deterministic laws, then it would indeed seem to be the case that humans could do nothing other than what their atoms, in aggregate, do…
We have argued that this picture is wrong on three counts. First, it is widely accepted that the ‘‘atoms’’ (in the philosophical sense) do not behave deterministically. Second, it is becoming more and more widely recognized that complex dynamical systems can exhibit new sorts of causal capacities not found at the level of their constituents. We have emphasized, among these, sentience, goal seeking, consciousness, acting for a reason, and self-evaluation. Third, we have argued that higher-level systems exert downward effects on their constituents via selection among possibilities generated randomly, probabilistically, or according to deterministic lower-level laws.”
Murphy, N., Brown, W.S (2007). Did My Neurons Make Me Do It?: Philosophical and Neurobiological Perspectives on Moral Responsibility and Free Will. Oxford University Press.
Perhaps it would be wise to refer back to the topic in hand Legion.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Perhaps it would be wise to refer back to the topic in hand Legion.
The topic is on materialism. I addressed that topic both directly and indirectly (the latter via addressing would-be evidence for the view that, whether they are or not, turn out to be wrong). I have found, though, that for you sometimes it seems "the topic at hand" tends to be "the topic as I conceptualize it and thus anything which deviates from my addressing those aspects of it that are part of my perspective are 'off-topic'". Earlier you mentioned in a response to another that nonlocality (phrased specifically in terms of paired-photons, which is a particular and the oldest demonstrations of violations to Bell's inequality) are irrelevant because you (correctly) asserted that photons can't "know' anything. But the problem posed by nonlocality to materialism is not based upon conscious agents. It is based on a violation of causality that has no material explanation, incarnation, manifestation, or realization, yet exists. In fact, problems such as this are considered by some to be so problematic as to challenge realism, which is (unlike determinism) required for materialism. See e.g.,
Busch, P., & Jaeger, G. (2010). Unsharp quantum reality. Foundations of Physics, 40(9-10), 1341-1367.
Leggett, A. J. (2008). Realism and the physical world. Reports on Progress in Physics, 71(2), 022001.
Pusey, M. F., Barrett, J., & Rudolph, T. (2012). On the reality of the quantum state. Nature Physics, 8(6), 475-478.
Tommasini, D. (2002). Reality, measurement and locality in Quantum Field Theory. Journal of High Energy Physics, 2002(07), 039.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I should have explained, or used an explanation from a scientific/scholarly source, on the problems posed to materialism by certain theories in, and indeed approaches to, biology, particularly as I mentioned relational biology and referred to a paper by one of Rosen's students in my first response. Hopefully this is concise and comprehensive enough to do. Consider a model, simulation, or similar "realization" of a cell and the process of metabolic-repair, and let f: A→B be a function
"where f is the process that takes input A and output B...The system Rosen uses for an example is the Metabolism-Repair or [M,R] system. The process, f, in this case stands for the entire metabolism goin on in an organism...The transition, f, which is being called metabolism, is a mapping taking some set of metabolites, A, into some set of products, B. What are the members of A? Really everything in the organism has to be included in A, and there has to be an implicit agreement that at least some of the members of A can enter the organism from its environment. What are the members of B? Many, if not all, of the memebers of A since the transitions in the reduced system are all strung together in the many intricate patterns or networks that make up the organism's metabolism. It also must be true that some members of B leave the organism as products of metabolism...In the context developed so far, the mapping, f, has a very special nature. It is a functional component of the system we are developing. A functional component has many interesting attributes. First of all, it exists independent of the material parts that make it possible. Reductionism has taught us that every thing in a real system can be expressed as a collection of material parts. This is not so in the case of functional components...Fragmentability is the aspect of systems that can be reduced to their material parts leaving recognizable material entities as the result. A system is not fragmentable is reducing it to its parts destroys something essential about that system. Since the crux of understanding a complex system had to do with identifying the context dependent functional components, they are by definition, not fragmentable". (pp.103-108; emphasis added; italics in original)
Mikulecky, D. C. (2005). The Circle That Never Ends: Can Complexity be Made Simple? In D. Bonchev & D. H. Rouvray (Eds.). Complexity in Chemistry, Biology, and Ecology (Mathematical and Computational Chemistry). Springer.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
The topic is on materialism. I addressed that topic both directly and indirectly (the latter via addressing would-be evidence for the view that, whether they are or not, turn out to be wrong). I have found, though, that for you sometimes it seems "the topic at hand" tends to be "the topic as I conceptualize it and thus anything which deviates from my addressing those aspects of it that are part of my perspective are 'off-topic'". Earlier you mentioned in a response to another that nonlocality (phrased specifically in terms of paired-photons, which is a particular and the oldest demonstrations of violations to Bell's inequality) are irrelevant because you (correctly) asserted that photons can't "know' anything. But the problem posed by nonlocality to materialism is not based upon conscious agents. It is based on a violation of causality that has no material explanation, incarnation, manifestation, or realization, yet exists. In fact, problems such as this are considered by some to be so problematic as to challenge realism, which is (unlike determinism) required for materialism. See e.g.,
Busch, P., & Jaeger, G. (2010). Unsharp quantum reality. Foundations of Physics, 40(9-10), 1341-1367.
Leggett, A. J. (2008). Realism and the physical world. Reports on Progress in Physics, 71(2), 022001.
Pusey, M. F., Barrett, J., & Rudolph, T. (2012). On the reality of the quantum state. Nature Physics, 8(6), 475-478.
Tommasini, D. (2002). Reality, measurement and locality in Quantum Field Theory. Journal of High Energy Physics, 2002(07), 039.
How does this violate causality in a way that is incompatible with materialism? You don't have to source it's for me, a layman explanation will do.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram serp777

And also that evidence of reincarnation memory has been rejected for a variety of reasons showing that it is false and fake every time. Double blind studies hahe been done disproving the entire mythology

these studies which disprove reincarnation are the work of those who do not beleive and therefore canot see evidence which is right under their noses , it is simply through fear that there might be anything beyond and above this material existance that blinds a person to the incomprehensable vastness beyond the material world . it is only ''False'' to someone who lacks the conception to see and only ''Fake'' to those too scared to look , ....

But since you request, I will give you the reasons why I think the material realm is only the outermost layer of the universe and why materialism can do a good job when describing activity within the material realm but fails in presenting a full picture of existence.

this observation is commonly accepted in the east , not due to any cultural conditioning nor due to any mythologies , it is due to first hand experience , ....

I began my interest in these things by studying a full gambit of things colloquially called paranormal. I came to the opinion through rational analysis that (beyond my reasonable doubt) that things do happen that should not happen under the theories of a materialist universe.
this can be verified as true by many who have reached higher states of awareness through Yogic practices or through advanced meditation practice.

I searched for what this 'more' could be and came across those who explain a greater vision of the universe in which these 'paranormal' things were just part and parcel of this expanded worldview. I learned these teachings have their source in one of the world's greatest wisdom traditions (eastern, Indian) and studied the works of many of the great minds of this tradition. I believe this tradition has the greatest breadth of wisdom and explanatory power beyond any other of mankind's wisdom traditions (including western materialism).

sorry but I have to second this , ...and add that it is only due to the east's dissinterest in materialism that it has the ability to see beyond it , ....such is the modern world now that there are Asian Materialists , just as there are those in the west who are turning against our cultural conditioning , ....

The point was that you have to fit it in the physical , material world, you have no choice. If you damage the hippocampus or other parts of the brain related to memory, then people will get permanent amensia. So even in your worldview there has to be a material component for memory. Science has proven that memories have to exist in the brain for you to remember. This is basic neurology and proven in every single experiment involving memory. You cannot deny that brain material is essential for memory to work so there has to be some material interface. You simply cannot avoid it. For instance those with a damaged hippocampus cant remember anything let alone reincarnation memories. And if you could then you should literally go out and get a nobel prize

this is like saying that if one dosent have a radio reciver one canot pick up a signal , ....but it says nothing about the possibility of some one posessing a highly sophisticated radio reciver that can pick up far more than some one with a basic model , ....through meditation the mind is trainable and can be hightened to levels of perception that surpass the basic level of the untrained mind , ....this trained mind can and does understand and experience things beyond the material realm .

I wonder prehaps if you would like to give the materialists explanation for telepathy ?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Can we please avoid name calling?

It is not name calling, it is pointing out people are following idea of two men based on their misunderstand of the double-slit experiment. Neither is credible is credible in academy so calling a spade a spade is not out of order.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
And you still failed to understand the argument.

I understood it as people not understanding what the experiment was. I have no need to entertain ideas based on people not understand the very sources they are talking about. It was why I went out of my way to link the real sources. Again not my problem people do not read the sources of their own links.

A lot of bigotry towards materialism, which is fine, but I can't hold your hand. However I can see you are not interested in a discussion.

Why would I discuss an idea based on people not understanding the sources they are talking about? I have no need to entertain sophistry
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How does this violate causality in a way that is incompatible with materialism? You don't have to source it's for me, a layman explanation will do.
The most popular formulation of the argument that it does might be simplistically summarized as follows:
Materialism, in a simplistic one-line definition, is the philosophical/metaphysical position that everything which exists is "material" or physical (personally, I think "materialism" to be an outdated perspective that only has merit to the extent it is equivalent with physicalism, and physicalism has the advantage of a nomenclature which suggests not just that which is physical but that which is the concern of physics, while materialism suggests that everything be "material" and even in classical physics this wasn't the case). Of course, no materialist actually believes this (words exist, but are not physical). But in the materialist worldview everything that exists can be reduced in some sense to that which is material, and in particular that which isn't material is causally ineffective and exists only as some lexical or conceptual property/process of that which is material (words, for example, are things that are produced by vocal cords, lips, tongue, sound-waves, etc.).

Of all processes that are reducible to the "material", causality holds the pride of place. After all, it is the explanatory basis for any non-static description of the material world. Classical causality requires that any effect must be caused by preceded material, spatiotemporal connections (basically, in order for there to be an "effect", whatever material things caused it had to "meet"). My go-to example is somebody calling my name from a distance. If I hear my name called and I turn around, I don't do so until the sound-waves produced by whoever called my name reach my ears causing vibrations which result in receptor neurons firing signals that go to the brain.

Nonlocality is a term for the dynamics of systems that have "causes" which don't "meet". It is perhaps easiest to conceptualize these in terms of attempts to explain them away, specifically hidden variables (which can't account for violations of Bell's inequality). Hidden variable theories held that what appear to be nonlocal "causes" are actually like somebody who calls my name causing me to turn: it appears that somebody nowhere near me caused me to turn only because we can't see the vibrations of materials (sound-wave) that cause me to turn. Likewise, "hidden variables" are the causes of what appear to be nonlocal effects that are really local.

That failed. So we have connections that aren't physical yet exert causal power among systems over arbitrary distances. Not only is there no material cause, but (unlike Newtonian gravity) there isn't even any way to fit whatever nonlocal "causes" are into any physical model or theory.

But that's nothing compared to the challenges posed by quantum physics on the idea that systems have "real" properties (material or whatever) independently.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I do claim fully considered reason. But there quickly becomes no point for a convinced materialist and a convinced spiritualist debating paranormal things. There are no new arguments I haven't heard before.


Well, duh, on any controversial subject anyone can find a link to support them.

My source has credibility behind it.

There are no new argument since one side has no evidence from a scientific stand point.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Name calling again?

See, if the device is doing it then you are simply acknowledging that the device and the photons communicate. Which means ........

So, what is the argument about?

Calling a spade a spade is not out of order. People linked sources they did not read nor understand.

No the device contaminates the experiment, it is not communicating. Amusing how you project your views into my comment without any merit what so ever.

The origin argument was that consciousness contaminates the event. However in every source it is the device not consciousness. Read the sources linked.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
The most popular formulation of the argument that it does might be simplistically summarized as follows:
Materialism, in a simplistic one-line definition, is the philosophical/metaphysical position that everything which exists is "material" or physical (personally, I think "materialism" to be an outdated perspective that only has merit to the extent it is equivalent with physicalism, and physicalism has the advantage of a nomenclature which suggests not just that which is physical but that which is the concern of physics, while materialism suggests that everything be "material" and even in classical physics this wasn't the case). Of course, no materialist actually believes this (words exist, but are not physical). But in the materialist worldview everything that exists can be reduced in some sense to that which is material, and in particular that which isn't material is causally ineffective and exists only as some lexical or conceptual property/process of that which is material (words, for example, are things that are produced by vocal cords, lips, tongue, sound-waves, etc.).

Of all processes that are reducible to the "material", causality holds the pride of place. After all, it is the explanatory basis for any non-static description of the material world. Classical causality requires that any effect must be caused by preceded material, spatiotemporal connections (basically, in order for there to be an "effect", whatever material things caused it had to "meet"). My go-to example is somebody calling my name from a distance. If I hear my name called and I turn around, I don't do so until the sound-waves produced by whoever called my name reach my ears causing vibrations which result in receptor neurons firing signals that go to the brain.

Nonlocality is a term for the dynamics of systems that have "causes" which don't "meet". It is perhaps easiest to conceptualize these in terms of attempts to explain them away, specifically hidden variables (which can't account for violations of Bell's inequality). Hidden variable theories held that what appear to be nonlocal "causes" are actually like somebody who calls my name causing me to turn: it appears that somebody nowhere near me caused me to turn only because we can't see the vibrations of materials (sound-wave) that cause me to turn. Likewise, "hidden variables" are the causes of what appear to be nonlocal effects that are really local.

That failed. So we have connections that aren't physical yet exert causal power among systems over arbitrary distances. Not only is there no material cause, but (unlike Newtonian gravity) there isn't even any way to fit whatever nonlocal "causes" are into any physical model or theory.

But that's nothing compared to the challenges posed by quantum physics on the idea that systems have "real" properties (material or whatever) independently.
If I understand this correctly, you are saying that materialism requires a material connection to everything, and that we can have "spooky action at a distance" as you explained in the thread of the same, or similar name, violates this because there is no material explanation for the connection Which is found in non-locality.

Does physicalism then explain this by positing theories that states of particles are tied to one another? Or does physicalism also prohibit action at a distance?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If I understand this correctly, you are saying that materialism requires a material connection to everything, and that we can have "spooky action at a distance" as you explained in the thread of the same, or similar name, violates this because there is no material explanation for the connection Which is found in non-locality.
Pretty much. But it's not just the "spooky action at a distance", which (again) characterizes classical Newtonian gravity. It's that 1) we have "spooky causes at a distance" and 2) these aren't some unified or singular force, process, or component of some physical theory like Newtonian gravity but was derived mathematically from quantum mechanics and tested empirically via many hundreds of experiments.

To put it in a different light, consider the "ghost in the machine" dualism that posits the mind (or soul, or whatever) is non-physical but causally influences the physical. Whatever such a "thing" might be, it is non-material (by definition) and contradicts materialism because it exercises causal powers on the material. There isn't supposed to be anything that can cause or influence anything material except that which is material, yet nonlocality is the name we give to a host of such causes/influences that can only be characterized or described by their non-material influences on the material.

Does physicalism then explain this by positing theories that states of particles are tied to one another? Or does physicalism also prohibit action at a distance?
Physicalism, in addition to providing us with (IMO) a better nomenclature, is also newer. So while we don't have e.g., non-reductive materialism there are non-reductive physicalists. In other words, I have found that the literature (particularly philosophical/metaphysical literature by scientists) tends not just to use the term physicalism rather than materialism but to do so in a more nuanced manner by e.g., referring to different physicalist doctrines/worldviews/etc. Thus non-reductive physicalists indeed accept that non-physical "things" can exercise causal "powers" over the physical but nothing exists that isn't produced by physical systems (i.e., there can be things that can't be reduced to the physical but nothing that doesn't emerge from the physical). Also, as nonlocality is almost universally agreed to be a clear feature of the cosmos, regardless of whether an individual calls themselves a materialist or physicalist if they are acquainted with modern physics they understand nonlocality "materially". Hence, it's not so much that "materialism" itself prohibits this kind of "thing" and physicalism doesn't, but that physics shows it exists and most of those whom we might label materialists are some form of physicalists (i.e., it's more a matter of materialism carrying a lot of semantic baggage thanks to being older and more divorced from the natural sciences than anything else).
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Pretty much. But it's not just the "spooky action at a distance", which (again) characterizes classical Newtonian gravity. It's that 1) we have "spooky causes at a distance" and 2) these aren't some unified or singular force, process, or component of some physical theory like Newtonian gravity but was derived mathematically from quantum mechanics and tested empirically via many hundreds of experiments.

To put it in a different light, consider the "ghost in the machine" dualism that posits the mind (or soul, or whatever) is non-physical but causally influences the physical. Whatever such a "thing" might be, it is non-material (by definition) and contradicts materialism because it exercises causal powers on the material. There isn't supposed to be anything that can cause or influence anything material except that which is material, yet nonlocality is the name we give to a host of such causes/influences that can only be characterized or described by their non-material influences on the material.


Physicalism, in addition to providing us with (IMO) a better nomenclature, is also newer. So while we don't have e.g., non-reductive materialism there are non-reductive physicalists. In other words, I have found that the literature (particularly philosophical/metaphysical literature by scientists) tends not just to use the term physicalism rather than materialism but to do so in a more nuanced manner by e.g., referring to different physicalist doctrines/worldviews/etc. Thus non-reductive physicalists indeed accept that non-physical "things" can exercise causal "powers" over the physical but nothing exists that isn't produced by physical systems (i.e., there can be things that can't be reduced to the physical but nothing that doesn't emerge from the physical). Also, as nonlocality is almost universally agreed to be a clear feature of the cosmos, regardless of whether an individual calls themselves a materialist or physicalist if they are acquainted with modern physics they understand nonlocality "materially". Hence, it's not so much that "materialism" itself prohibits this kind of "thing" and physicalism doesn't, but that physics shows it exists and most of those whom we might label materialists are some form of physicalists (i.e., it's more a matter of materialism carrying a lot of semantic baggage thanks to being older and more divorced from the natural sciences than anything else).
Thank you.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
there's no reason why love and hate can't fully be explained by neurological reactions resulting from evolutionary pressures.

You are crossing a category line when you make love a matter of fact issue.

Who is in "fact" loving then? Which individuals and which groups of people? The Jews, the Aryans, the Danish, the Americans? Are you as per scientific fact a loving person?

What you have done basically is to reject subjectivity altogether. For example the opinion "the painting is beautiful". The word "beautiful" refers to a love for the way the painting looks. If the existence of this love is a fact, as you say it is, it means then the beauty is also a fact, because beauty is based on this love. Therefore, then the statement "the painting is beautiful", conveys the fact that there exists love for the way the painting looks in the brain. It means there is no room for opinions anymore as distinct from facts, opinions are then a subcategory of facts, opions are then a particular kind of facts.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Next there's no reason why love and hate can't fully be explained by neurological reactions resulting from evolutionary pressures.
Actually, there's an excellent reason: neurology is the scientific field concerned with structural disorders of the brain, as opposed to neurobiology/neuroscience more generally. Essentially, by saying that love and hate can be explained by neurological reactions, you are asserting that they are structural (as in detectable by MRI, not fMRI) damage/disorders.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
The point was that you have to fit it in the physical , material world, you have no choice. If you damage the hippocampus or other parts of the brain related to memory, then people will get permanent amensia. So even in your worldview there has to be a material component for memory. Science has proven that memories have to exist in the brain for you to remember. This is basic neurology and proven in every single experiment involving memory. You cannot deny that brain material is essential for memory to work so there has to be some material interface. You simply cannot avoid it. For instance those with a damaged hippocampus cant remember anything let alone reincarnation memories. And if you could then you should literally go out and get a nobel prize

That is very simply explained by the theory that the brain has organization in terms of decisionmaking. And when the fact is accepted that freedom is real, then obviously there is the question, what is it that made some particular decision turn out the way it did? And this is where the line is between fact and opinion, between material and spiritual.

As per logic it is impossible to have any fact whatsoever about what makes any decision turn out the way it does. This is because facts rely on being forced to a conclusion by evidence, while choosing relies on freedom. So when you ask for facts about what it is that made a decision turn out the way it did, then you are imposing the logic of being forced on choosing, because facts can only be obtained in a forced way. It is a logical error to ask for facts about it. But that facts do not apply is no problem, because besides facts, we also have opinions.

There are 2 fundamental categories, one accomodates subjectivity, opinions, and the other category accommodates objectivity, facts.

creator
chooses
existence is a matter of opinion
spiritual domain

creation
chosen
existence is a matter of fact
material domain

choosing = to make an alternative future the present or to make a possibility, which is in the future, the present or not
opinion = the result of choosing about what it is that chooses
fact = (evidence forcing to produce) a model (copy) of something

How these 2 categories work is for example, the soul chooses over the body and brain. The existence of the soul is a matter of opinion, one may also not believe in the soul, but the body and brain are matters of fact. We can see as fact that decisions are made, measure them, but it is categorically a matter of opinion what it is that makes any decision turn out the way it does.

With this scheme one can also express the opinion that the spiritual domain is empty, or that there is no spiritual domain even. Express a feeling of utter emptiness, as is common enough.

Obviously one cannot make an accurate model of love, or anger, or anything that does the job of choosing, although many scientists now imagine they can, confusing "reasonable" judgement for fact. Obviously one can only express "anger" and "love", and expression of emotion operates by free will, thus guaranteeing the resulting expression of what "anger" is can turn out several different ways, any which way would be valid.
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
That is very simply explained by the theory that the brain has organization in terms of decisionmaking. And when the fact is accepted that freedom is real, then obviously there is the question, what is it that made some particular decision turn out the way it did? And this is where the line is between fact and opinion, between material and spiritual.

As per logic it is impossible to have any fact whatsoever about what makes any decision turn out the way it does. This is because facts rely on being forced to a conclusion by evidence, while choosing relies on freedom. So when you ask for facts about what it is that made a decision turn out the way it did, then you are imposing the logic of being forced on choosing, because facts can only be obtained in a forced way. It is a logical error to ask for facts about it. But that facts do not apply is no problem, because besides facts, we also have opinions.

There are 2 fundamental categories, one accomodates subjectivity, opinions, and the other category accommodates objectivity, facts.

creator
chooses
existence is a matter of opinion
spiritual domain

creation
chosen
existence is a matter of fact
material domain

choosing = to make an alternative future the present or to make a possibility, which is in the future, the present or not
opinion = the result of choosing about what it is that chooses
fact = (evidence forcing to produce) a model (copy) of something

How these 2 categories work is for example, the soul chooses over the body and brain. The existence of the soul is a matter of opinion, one may also not believe in the soul, but the body and brain are matters of fact. We can see as fact that decisions are made, measure them, but it is categorically a matter of opinion what it is that makes any decision turn out the way it does.

With this scheme one can also express the opinion that the spiritual domain is empty, or that there is no spiritual domain even. Express a feeling of utter emptiness, as is common enough.

Obviously one cannot make an accurate model of love, or anger, or anything that does the job of choosing, although many scientists now imagine they can, confusing "reasonable" judgement for fact. Obviously one can only express "anger" and "love", and expression of emotion operates by free will, thus guaranteeing the resulting expression of what "anger" is can turn out several different ways, any which way would be valid.
What does this have to do with the comment you are responding to? That memories are formed and stored physically in the brain? This is a "fact", as you call it, as it has been "copied" through "modeling" that they refer to as "experimentation". It has been verified repeatedly. So, do you not have an issue with it?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Materialism cannot explain why there is something rather than nothing (the most fundamental question of existence). Theism can. And it only makes one assumption, namely, God.
It solves it be assuming something. The only thing it pretends to solve it assumes.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Materialism cannot explain why there is something rather than nothing (the most fundamental question of existence). Theism can. And it only makes one assumption, namely, God.
That is about as big as assumptions can get, though. We don't even know that something came from nothing, yet, as we don't know what existed before the Big Bang.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
God is simple, not complex. (This is known as the doctrine of divine simplicity.)
"The general idea of divine simplicity can be stated in this way: the being of God is identical to the "attributes" of God. In other words, such characteristics as omnipresence, goodness, truth, eternity, etc. are identical to God's being, not qualities that make up that being, nor abstract entities inhering in God as in a substance. Varieties of the doctrine may be found in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophical theologians, especially during the height of scholasticism, though the doctrine's origins may be traced back to ancient Greek thought, finding apotheosis in Plotinus'Enneads as the Simplex."

- In what universe is this not extremely vague and complex? Just because certain people claim that it is "simplistic", doesn't mean that it is. Terms like "goodness", "omnipresence", "truth", "eternity", etc. are all extremely vague and not well-defined. And, no one can claim any kind of evidence for something that is not well-defined.
 
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