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Proof That Quranic/Biblical Adam Did Not Exist

Is there ample genetic evidence against the biblical and quranic Adam?

  • Yes, genetic evidence suggests that biblical/quranic Adam/Eve didn't exist.

    Votes: 6 54.5%
  • No, science can't prove whether biblical/quranic Adam/Eve had ever existed.

    Votes: 5 45.5%

  • Total voters
    11

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of less than 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than 10,000 individuals. Source: ( Li, Heng, and Durbin, Richard. ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences". Nature International Weekly Journal of Science. 28 July 2001. PSMC estimate on simulated data. : Inference of human population history from individual whole-genome sequences : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

If there were the most severe population bottlenecking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical or Quranic Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest amongst each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments ( Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. " However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". Source: ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?". 5 April 2010. Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple? | The BioLogos Forum

Coalescence theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." Source: ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke,Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M.) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium". Genome Research. 17 April 2007 Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
If there were the most severe population bottlenecking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical or Quranic Adam and Eve,

Would your please quote from Quran that there was ever only one breeding pair one planet Earth?
Regards
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of less than 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than 10,000 individuals. Source: ( Li, Heng, and Durbin, Richard. ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences". Nature International Weekly Journal of Science. 28 July 2001. PSMC estimate on simulated data. : Inference of human population history from individual whole-genome sequences : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

If there were the most severe population bottlenecking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical or Quranic Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest amongst each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments ( Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. " However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". Source: ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?". 5 April 2010. Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple? | The BioLogos Forum

Coalescence theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." Source: ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke,Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M.) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium". Genome Research. 17 April 2007 Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium
i.e., for the Adam-Eve narrative to be close to accurate would be a miracle. Wow ... thanks for sharing.
 
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Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Would your please quote from Quran that there was ever only one breeding pair one planet Earth?
Regards

“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72)

“O ye people! Fear your Lord Who created you from a single soul and of its kind created its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women” (Qur’an 4:2).
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Would your please quote from Quran that there was ever only one breeding pair one planet Earth?
Regards

“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72)

“O ye people! Fear your Lord Who created you from a single soul and of its kind created its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women” (Qur’an 4:2).
[38:72]When thy Lord said to the angels, ‘I am about to create man from clay,
[38:73]‘And so when I have fashioned himin perfection, and have breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in submission to him.’
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
[4:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[4:2]O ye people! fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created therefrom its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women; and fear Allah, in Whose name you appeal to one another, andfear Him particularly respectingties of relationship. Verily, Allah watches over you.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

You will please observe form the verses closely that Adam or Eve's names have not been mentioned in the same.
It is a general discussion of human creation which is discussed by Quran in the verses.

Regards
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Namaste,

Im sorry to be rude, but can i just point something out here, others will also know what i mean.

paarsurrey said:
Would your please quote from Quran that there was ever only one breeding pair one planet Earth?
Regards

The reply was:
[4:2]O ye people! fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created therefrom its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women; and fear Allah

paarsurrey said:
You will please observe form the verses closely that Adam or Eve's names have not been mentioned in the same.
It is a general discussion of human creation which is discussed by Quran in the verses.

Now im no expert, but i can read.


Thanks
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Sorry.
I don't agree with you .
The verses do not mention Adam and Eve in persons.

Regards

Namaste,

Adam and Eve are not the point of discussion, in this context, the point is "One Breading Pair", from which all men and women came from, the Koran verse (4:2) clearly specifies one Male, then one Female before the multitude of males and females, from the "Twain", (Pair or 2 off) spread many.

Dhanyavad.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Namaste,

Adam and Eve are not the point of discussion, in this context, the point is "One Breading Pair", from which all men and women came from, the Koran verse (4:2) clearly specifies one Male, then one Female before the multitude of males and females, from the "Twain", (Pair or 2 off) spread many.

Dhanyavad.
" from a single soul and created there from its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women"
Quran mentions of soul here not physical form of the humans.
Do you believe in soul?

Regards

 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Do you think this is mythology?

Namaste,
Does not matter if it is Myth or not,
If it does not cause any harm to anyone, i will respect it as someones tradition. If it causes harm i can reject it. Does not have to be Myth to me to reject, its on the basis of Ahimsa that i judge these/any claims.

My involvement here is purely on the premise, that i saw a contradiction in statements, i was not sure if anyone else saw it.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
" from a single soul and created there from its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women"
Quran mentions of soul here not physical form of the humans.
Do you believe in soul?

Regards

Namaste,

First, What do you mean by "Soul"?

Secondly, my point is that from one "Soul and its mate", was speared "Many Men and Women".

The OP's Point was that we cant get the population of Humans below 10,000 or so, then you asked "Would your please quote from Quran that there was ever only one breeding pair one planet Earth?"

This verse was given,

[4:2]O ye people! fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created therefrom its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women; and fear Allah

Then you reply was

You will please observe form the verses closely that Adam or Eve's names have not been mentioned in the same.
It is a general discussion of human creation which is discussed by Quran in the verses.

You bring Adam and Eve to the equation, but the point (As i see it) was not concerning Adam or Eve specifically but the the overall population of Humans, and as per the Koran verse, my interpretation is (as others have also done) that there was one pair and from that pair comes the many men and women.

That is all, im not saying its wrong or right, it just seems odd to me that you don't see it as i do. That is all.

Dhanyavad.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Secondly, my point is that from one "Soul and its mate", was speared "Many Men and Women".

What is the mate of a soul?

The Arabic word used in the original Arabic Text is Nafus which is mentioned here in feminine. The Jewish and Christian myth does not say that the first position of human was a female and not a male . They take it otherwise.

I think due to the Jewish and or Christian myth (Adam and Eve) you thought it was being discussed here.
Am I right?

Regard
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
so if evolution is true there must have been a first human. So if there could noy ever have been less than 10,000 humans, evolution must be false. So where did these 10,000 suddenly appear from?
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
well if there wasn't a first human then how was there a second or third? in fact evolution says it takes miliions of years for a species to evolve. So if the first human was a male and there was no female then the species would die out. or if the first was a female and there was no male the species would die out. both a male and a female would have to evolve at the same time and near enough that they could get together and reproduce. but since it takes millions of years for one to evolve what are the odds of both a male and a female evolving at the same time? seems pretty slim
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
so if evolution is true there must have been a first human. So if there could noy ever have been less than 10,000 humans, evolution must be false. So where did these 10,000 suddenly appear from?

Biological evolution is defined as a change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift. Evolution | Define Evolution at Dictionary.com
Evolution does not presuppose that our male most recent common male ancestor and female MRCA had procreated together.

All life on Earth evolved from a single-celled organism that lived roughly 3.5 billion years ago, a new study seems to confirm. All Species Evolved From Single Cell, Study Finds
 
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Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"paarsurrey, post: 4292160, member: 37462"]What is the mate of a soul?

Namaste,

What does "Soul", mean in the context of the verse in question (Koran 4:2)?

The Arabic word used in the original Arabic Text is Nafus which is mentioned here in feminine. The Jewish and Christian myth does not say that the first position of human was a female and not a male . They take it otherwise.

Ok so the Soul's Mate is Feminine, does that imply the "one Soul" was Male? or is it the one Soul is Feminine and the Mate is the Male???
This is confusing, the verse says:

4:2]O ye people! fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created therefrom its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women; and fear Allah

either way, what i gather here is A Male and A Female (does not matter who came first of what name was given) was created first and from that pair (Twain, Two, actually what is the Arabic word used here for "Twain", could be of interest?) spread many men and women. So to me at least the verse is clear, from 2 spread many.

I think due to the Jewish and or Christian myth (Adam and Eve) you thought it was being discussed here.
Am I right?

No, not really, I did not bring Adam and Eve into the equation.
 
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