Should Zoroastrians accept converts? (followers, doctrine, preach, prophet, pray)

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Michel,

looks to me like a good portion of Zoroasterianism has been passed on to Christianity. Did it strike you the same way?

B.

[ashai]

Light Prima

Zoroastrianism, or as Zarathushtra called it, Daena Vanguhi, was always meant to accept any one who, out of conviction, would freely choose it. However due to the historical circumstances , it became a defacto ethnic religion for the last 13 plus centuries ( That is, since the Islamic conquest)

In fac,t I seat here typing my post to you today and I am what the West calls a 'Convert' to the Beh Dineh. What the Good Religion has come to mean. The problem is that no one knows about it! Many Iranians, let alone Westerners, like myself, believe that there is no way to become a Zarathushtrian, why?

Well the answer in detail will be too long but, basically, Zarathushtra preached in Eastern Iran ( Iran at that time extended over all Central Asia, the Punjab, Southern Russia, the Caucausus and parts of present day Turkey, Bulgaria, Syria and Iraq) in all probability around 1700 BC. His preaching is resumed in the Gathas a Hymnal, that was sung, not written, for hundreds of years, being preserved in its meaning, by the same intricate construction and metering system that preserved the Rig Veda with which ( In its oldest parts) its contemporary.

Zarathushtra managed to gain the favor of the state in Chorasmia ( an ancient area including Northern Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan,Turkmenistan and parts of todays Eastern Iran and Beluchistan) by managing to have Kavi (Roughly like a King) Vishtaspa accept his teaching.

However, after a few centuries, Chorasmia was either conquered or became a vassal to some other Arya, ( Zarathushtra was an Arya, what the West calls Aryans which are the eastern most of the Indo-Europeans) tribal kingdom, probably Scythians or Tokkarans. So the religion in order to survive and prosper without state support had to compromise.

Where Zarathushtra preached one god, with no entities as His/Her ( The name of Zarathushtra's God is a compound of a female and a male name. Mazda, female, and Ahura, male.) the new deviated version of the religion, accepted the Old Arya gods that Zarathushtra had eliminated , but not as full deities, but as something call Yazatas or Izads, which means Adorable Ones. They are little deities that help their Father, Mazda Ahura, whose name is changed to give a more masculine implication into Ahura Mazda ( Zarathushtra used both arrangements , but more often Mazda Ahura)

Where Zarathushtra specifically condemned Haoma ( which was both a god and a drink, in the old pantheon) which he called a filthy intoxicant, the new deviated version of the religion, reintroduced Haoma as a Yazata and a drink, however the drink's contents , (which were powerful intoxicants, almost surely, a concoction made of Opium, Cannabis and Ephedra) were changed to Ephedra diluted with water.

In any case the revised version still considered convincing others to choose it a meritorious deed. In fact at all times, until the Islamic conquest, Zarathushtrians accepted new comers to the faith.

However, as we know, Islam forbids any Muslim to change religion and imposes the death penalty, both on the one who changes religion and the one who helps him, or her, to change. Under the Sassanian Empire ( the last Zarathushtrian based Empire) Zarathushtrianism, which had always preserved the separation of religion and state, became a theocracy so much so, that to be a Zoroastrian meant to be supported by the Empire and to be the Empire meant to be supported by God Himself.

This was against Zarathushtra, who preached that there had to be an Ahu ( Secular leader) and a Ratu ( Relkigious Guide). But the Sassanians had their own axes to grind and identified God to their empire. Thus when the Sassanians, due to their own incompetence and their constant warfare against Byzantium, lost Iran it was, in the eyes of many of the people, a loss of their God ( Ahura Mazda) to the Arab God (Allah)

Thus the world's first Universal and Missionary religion came to be the religion of a dwindling minority part of the Iranian ethnicity. Islam as you well know, is not tolerant and second class citizenship, as well as, periodic persecutions , and the poll tax were used to 'convert' Iranians to Islam. Later the Mongols and the Turks also conquered Iran and massacred all Non-Muslims they could . Even as late as the 1940s Shia fanatics would kidnap Zarathushtrian girls and force marry then to Muslims 'converting' them to Islam and yes there are public records of theseb events still extant.

If any one wants to learn more about he Good religion and its fate, please vist the follwing sites
www.zoroastrian.org, www.zoroastrianism.cc , www.vohuman.org, www.zarathushtra.com

There are alo several books some available in Amazon such Farhang Mehr's Zoroastrian Tradition. Daryoush Jahanian's Zoroastrian Doctrine and the Biblical Connection is available at Books N Bits ( bksnbts@aol.com) Zaehner's The Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism, at Amazon etc

Ushta ( LIght) to you
Ashai

[ashai]

Light Prima

Zoroastrianism, or as Zarathushtra called it, Daena Vanguhi, was always meant to accept any one who, out of conviction, would freely choose it. However due to the historical circumstances , it became a defacto ethnic religion for the last 13 plus centuries ( That is, since the Islamic conquest)

In fac,t I seat here typing my post to you today and I am what the West calls a 'Convert' to the Beh Dineh. What the Good Religion has come to mean. The problem is that no one knows about it! Many Iranians, let alone Westerners, like myself, believe that there is no way to become a Zarathushtrian, why?

Well the answer in detail will be too long but, basically, Zarathushtra preached in Eastern Iran ( Iran at that time extended over all Central Asia, the Punjab, Southern Russia, the Caucausus and parts of present day Turkey, Bulgaria, Syria and Iraq) in all probability around 1700 BC. His preaching is resumed in the Gathas a Hymnal, that was sung, not written, for hundreds of years, being preserved in its meaning, by the same intricate construction and metering system that preserved the Rig Veda with which ( In its oldest parts) its contemporary.

Zarathushtra managed to gain the favor of the state in Chorasmia ( an ancient area including Northern Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan,Turkmenistan and parts of todays Eastern Iran and Beluchistan) by managing to have Kavi (Roughly like a King) Vishtaspa accept his teaching.

However, after a few centuries, Chorasmia was either conquered or became a vassal to some other Arya, ( Zarathushtra was an Arya, what the West calls Aryans which are the eastern most of the Indo-Europeans) tribal kingdom, probably Scythians or Tokkarans. So the religion in order to survive and prosper without state support had to compromise.

Where Zarathushtra preached one god, with no entities as His/Her ( The name of Zarathushtra's God is a compound of a female and a male name. Mazda, female, and Ahura, male.) the new deviated version of the religion, accepted the Old Arya gods that Zarathushtra had eliminated , but not as full deities, but as something call Yazatas or Izads, which means Adorable Ones. They are little deities that help their Father, Mazda Ahura, whose name is changed to give a more masculine implication into Ahura Mazda ( Zarathushtra used both arrangements , but more often Mazda Ahura)

Where Zarathushtra specifically condemned Haoma ( which was both a god and a drink, in the old pantheon) which he called a filthy intoxicant, the new deviated version of the religion, reintroduced Haoma as a Yazata and a drink, however the drink's contents , (which were powerful intoxicants, almost surely, a concoction made of Opium, Cannabis and Ephedra) were changed to Ephedra diluted with water.

In any case the revised version still considered convincing others to choose it a meritorious deed. In fact at all times, until the Islamic conquest, Zarathushtrians accepted new comers to the faith.

However, as we know, Islam forbids any Muslim to change religion and imposes the death penalty, both on the one who changes religion and the one who helps him, or her, to change. Under the Sassanian Empire ( the last Zarathushtrian based Empire) Zarathushtrianism, which had always preserved the separation of religion and state, became a theocracy so much so, that to be a Zoroastrian meant to be supported by the Empire and to be the Empire meant to be supported by God Himself.

This was against Zarathushtra, who preached that there had to be an Ahu ( Secular leader) and a Ratu ( Relkigious Guide). But the Sassanians had their own axes to grind and identified God to their empire. Thus when the Sassanians, due to their own incompetence and their constant warfare against Byzantium, lost Iran it was, in the eyes of many of the people, a loss of their God ( Ahura Mazda) to the Arab God (Allah)

Thus the world's first Universal and Missionary religion came to be the religion of a dwindling minority part of the Iranian ethnicity. Islam as you well know, is not tolerant and second class citizenship, as well as, periodic persecutions , and the poll tax were used to 'convert' Iranians to Islam. Later the Mongols and the Turks also conquered Iran and massacred all Non-Muslims they could . Even as late as the 1940s Shia fanatics would kidnap Zarathushtrian girls and force marry then to Muslims 'converting' them to Islam and yes there are public records of theseb events still extant.

If any one wants to learn more about he Good religion and its fate, please vist the follwing sites
www.zoroastrian.org, www.zoroastrianism.cc , www.vohuman.org, www.zarathushtra.com

There are alo several books some available in Amazon such Farhang Mehr's Zoroastrian Tradition. Daryoush Jahanian's Zoroastrian Doctrine and the Biblical Connection is available at Books N Bits ( bksnbts@aol.com) Zaehner's The Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism, at Amazon etc

Ushta ( LIght) to you
Ashai

[ashai]

Ushta Michel

That is an excellent article you posted. I agree with everything , in it BUT, the fololwing:

" ... after initiation a Zarathushti is free to choose the religion he or she considers the best. "

A Zarathushtian, in his Initiation, repeats the Fravarane ( I choose for myself to be a Zarathushti ...I appreciate the good religion that breaks yokes yet sheathes swords. ... Of all religions that there are, have been, or will be , this one is the Greatest, Best and Sublimest ...) Obviously, a Zarathushtri considers the Dine Beh the Best Religion otherwise, why choose it?

Ushta te
Ashai

[ashai]

Ushta bartdanr vbmenu_register("postmenu_218077", true);

You are right as to choice. The conservatives, mostly Parsis, have every right not to accept any one. However, while Zarathushtra preached free choice, he also preached the consequences of free choice . A righteous choice means, an eventual, righteous consequence. The consequences of the conservative's choice, is their extinction, Parsis have dwindled from 200,000 plus a little more than 100 years ago to 60000 and deaths out number births 3 to one. It is also the religion whose members have the highest average age, Its been projected that within the next 20 years there will be less than 30000 Parsis in the world.

So its their choice but its a wrongful one

Ushta te
Ashai

[egroen]

Zoroastrians have been around for 1,400 years and since the rise of islam have been one of the most persecuted religions (yes, even more than the jews, believe it or not). There are now less than than 200,000 estimated in the world (though so many who believe have to do so in secret so that is a hard number to estimate).

I have family who are Zoroastrians and follow many of the customs as it is so ingrained in persian culture, despite islam's best efforts (sort of like the pagan influences still ingrained in western culture, and christianity has simply adopted these practices).

They do accept converts, as spouses of family members have converted... though as stated before, it is difficult to attract converts when few are able to practice openly in the non-western world.

-Erin

[egroen]

Looks like the conservatives are against conversion:

A group of High Priests of traditional Zoroastrianism issued a resolution which stated that they "are pained to observe the potential threat to the very survival of the Parsi Zoroastrian community due to increasing number of intermarriages within the community and the so-called initiation of the progeny of such intermarried couples into the Parsi Zoroastrian faith. This is against the tenets of the religion. If this trend continues, the day is not far when the unique 'Parsi Zoroastrian' identity which the community has zealously preserved since centuries will be diluted and subsequently wiped out." They issued a seven point declaration, stating they do not recognize inter-faith marriages as being religiously valid. Such couples may be married under civil law, but their status is not recognized from a religious viewpoint. Their children are to be excluded from the Zoroastrian faith.

Conflict exists within the faith as some followers in North America (such as my family) have relaxed rules concerning inter-faith marriages and the initiation of their children. One source states that a third to a half of Zarthosthi youth in the West are marrying outside of their faith.



Dasturji Dr. Hormazdyar K. Mirza et al., "Historic resolution by high priests prohibiting inter-marriage," at: http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/

[Bishka]

Should Zoroastrians accept converts?

Only if they want to, you can't force them to.

[zenzero]

About acceptance of converts.
SOmeone has already highlighted the line about allowing to choose any religion.
Next, acceptance in ONE god means all humans at least the believers are same and so accapetable.
Let us remember that we are humans first and the word god came with the development of communication and language in particular. Humans too are part of nature and nature does not make choices.
Love & rgds

[Comet]

What a good thread, sorry I didn't find it till now.

I think they should. It has been stated already that they do/used to accept converts. I'd hate to see it go the way of Mandeanism and become so guarded that it won't allow new converts. Fear of losing the religion will lead to its loss.

Many religions accept converting once certain criteria is met. It is a "dying" religion by many accounts and I'd hate to see it pass as others have.... rather just absorbed into other systems and POOF! Gone except in books, etc... If there are those who believe and would hold it true, why should they not be allowed to become a part of the faith?