who is the Master? (Zen)

[zenzero]

Friend Halycon,
Please understand that that there is no master or disciple; all are just but ONE rather *NOT TWO*
Knowledge / Tao / water flows down like wise the relationship of master and discciple. None has to claim being either. They are as they are on their own accord.
The journey if any is individual the master cannot help anyone; Each has to help himself to reach the other shore. The master is only a mirror who reflects our true picture and the day we find no reflection the master and discciple are now * NOT TWO* any longer.
Love & rgds

[koan]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

It is a misleading question because of the Buddhist fixation on "no self".

*Mulls just how to put this...*

"I" am always conscious of "self" regardless of what state of consciousness I am perceiving reality through. In normal, everyday awareness, I am bonded to my sense of the physical self. It is somewhat unavoidable, imho. Then again, when I am in out-of-body experiences, I am also still very aware of my own focal point, although, admittedly, my "sense" of "self" has grown considerably to include that alternate viewpoint. Likewise during those indescribable moments of Oneness, even then, I am seeing reality through my own focus. I might add, that this perception is largely based on feeling and a different kind of thinking, which is predominantly graphical, occurs. To be sure, in each "layer" of consciousness one is distinctly alert, in some cases, incredibly alert. It is my thinking that this is where expressions of the "unblinking or all seeing eye" comes from.

The only way I can describe my view of reality is that it is "similar" to an eye (I) within an eye (I) within an eye (i) within an eye (I) ... ad infinitum. Granted, from that perspective, the perception of "self" is so radically altered that it may as well be "No self" for all the difference it makes. I should ad that "ego" is bound to the physical self and in no way hamstrings ones larger identity.

To make a long story short, "Be alert! Be alert!" is just another way of saying, "Be aware, be aware! Given that you are already a personality energy essence, which is a fancy term for "awareness", it is simply a call to be what you already are. In that sense "you" are the master... as no one else is gonna make it happen for you.

All these I's do seem to be ego driven, yet the ego itself is conditional and changes to suit a particular situtation. Being aware of ego allows for change.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by koan

All these I's do seem to be ego driven,

Admittedly it does sound that way, but "I" am rather insistent on the simple fact that "self" comprises far more than people's precious notions of ego.

Originally Posted by koan

yet the ego itself is conditional and changes to suit a particular situtation.

By allusion you make it sound as if the other aspects of being are "changeless". I would suggest that that is hardly the case.

Originally Posted by koan

Being aware of ego allows for change.

*sigh* Again, "I" am rather insistent that when people use the word "ego" they should actually being using the word "egotistical". The simple fact is that the ego is a rather small, localized aspect of a far larger identity. However "ego" is normally in the "driver's seat" in this era and often perceived as being the totality of self. Some of us have gone a few rather large leaps beyond such limited thinking.

Btw: You did not say if my answer to "who is the Master" is correct or not. If it isn't, in your eyes, I'd love to hear what you think the answer might be.

[koan]

This is a Koan. The answer is mind. Now how would you demonstrate this without words (as this is the zen way).
As far a the leaps you mention, I have not seen anything in your posts to demonstrate this.

[rojse]

If the person responds to stimuli, then the environment is the true master.

[koan]

The mind creates the stimuli.

[koan]

This is my answer to the koan.

[rojse]

Originally Posted by koan

The mind creates the stimuli.

But the mind receives information about the environment from the senses.

[koan]

The mind is the enviroment. All stimuli are causes and conditions, the mind is causes and conditions.
Look up dependent origination or the 12 link chain.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by koan

This is a Koan. The answer is mind. Now how would you demonstrate this without words (as this is the zen way).

Oh, that is so easy. It is a great pity you do not see the patterns behind my words. You are always welcome to drop by and visit. If you are confident that I would disappoint you in a conversation between essences, then you would experience your expectations. Open your mind and who know what might happen.

Originally Posted by koan

As far a the leaps you mention, I have not seen anything in your posts to demonstrate this.

My off hand guess would be because my words do not match your preconceived notions about reality. Consciousness is like a bubble you mold your world around. Perhaps you might perceive the image I am projecting. The surface and outside of the bubble is form; whereas within the bubble is the formlessness of being. The eye within an eye within an eye anology is a very good one. Try to capture the essence of it, as it is an "active image". Have some fun and meditate on it for a time. What do you have to lose?