who is the Master? (Zen)

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by zenzero

Friend Halycon,
There are two aspects.
One is the realm of the mind, which knows and the other is the No-mind part where the individual merges with the whole there he individual is no more even to claim that he is.
It is in that respect that the master does not know that he is a master. BUT when interacting with others; knowledge flows like water seeks to fill the lower levels and so automatically the master and the disciple stands out on its own accord Neither has to prove who is what as between them they know.
Love & rgds

With all due respect, I disagree.

My understanding is that no-mind refers to the comprehension that the mind as an object is illusatory because, clearly, the mind is in constant flux, a transitory state re-created moment to moment by the brain to allow the animal body to function in its environment.
Thus, no-mind is a concept to be understood, which in turn allows for an increased comprehension and practice of detachment.
A man will always have a mind, no matter if he is a Buddha or not. No-mind is not an aspect of the individual that can be merged with anything else, it's just a descriptor of the ultimate nature of what we call mind.

Therefore, a master will be aware that he has more experience and understanding of detachment than those around him, which allows him to become a master to his pupils. If he had no recognition of his masterful knowledge, he would have no pupils and be no master.

[zenzero]

Friend Halycon,
There is no disagreement about the fact that even budhhas have mind.
Basically a master is one who has in fact a Mastery over his own mind.
He has silencend the mind and now nature / Tao flows through him.
He now only uses the mind for the minimum function he wishes to and not the mind leads him any longer.
When an individual's mind is silent he becomes a silent pool and others can see their reflection in it. The master does not show that reflection. If he will do so his ego / mind will come back and that would mean he is not having any control over his mind and he not a master.
It is the nature of a mirror to reflect like wise when an individual becomes natural as a silent pool it reflects.
Besides master and disciple relationship is like a love affair a play and situations around the master happens on its own accord where the disciple can see for himself as to where he is.
Friend Halycon as neither have I any personal experience with a master nor am I one can explain more than this as that would be falsehood. The above is an understanding.
Love & rgds

[rojse]

The man is master of himself.

[koan]

Originally Posted by rojse

The man is master of himself.

Who is the man?

[rojse]

Originally Posted by koan

Who is the man?

The master is master of himself.

[koan]

Originally Posted by rojse

The master is master of himself.

rojse, your missing a very big point here! In Buddhism of which Zen is a part, anatman(no self) is a big part.

[rojse]

Originally Posted by koan

rojse, your missing a very big point here! In Buddhism of which Zen is a part, anatman(no self) is a big part.

Pretend I don't know what anatman is.

I actually don't, if you are wondering.

[koan]

rojse, anatman(no self)means, that what we call the self is only a set of conditions. Our body and our mind a causal, so we can there be a self?

[rojse]

Originally Posted by koan

rojse, anatman(no self)means, that what we call the self is only a set of conditions. Our body and our mind a causal, so we can there be a self?

Like a computer program that responds differently according to the different stimuli given to it?

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by koan

everyone is still missing the point, Who is the master?

It is a misleading question because of the Buddhist fixation on "no self".

*Mulls just how to put this...*

"I" am always conscious of "self" regardless of what state of consciousness I am perceiving reality through. In normal, everyday awareness, I am bonded to my sense of the physical self. It is somewhat unavoidable, imho. Then again, when I am in out-of-body experiences, I am also still very aware of my own focal point, although, admittedly, my "sense" of "self" has grown considerably to include that alternate viewpoint. Likewise during those indescribable moments of Oneness, even then, I am seeing reality through my own focus. I might add, that this perception is largely based on feeling and a different kind of thinking, which is predominantly graphical, occurs. To be sure, in each "layer" of consciousness one is distinctly alert, in some cases, incredibly alert. It is my thinking that this is where expressions of the "unblinking or all seeing eye" comes from.

The only way I can describe my view of reality is that it is "similar" to an eye (I) within an eye (I) within an eye (i) within an eye (I) ... ad infinitum. Granted, from that perspective, the perception of "self" is so radically altered that it may as well be "No self" for all the difference it makes. I should ad that "ego" is bound to the physical self and in no way hamstrings ones larger identity.

To make a long story short, "Be alert! Be alert!" is just another way of saying, "Be aware, be aware! Given that you are already a personality energy essence, which is a fancy term for "awareness", it is simply a call to be what you already are. In that sense "you" are the master... as no one else is gonna make it happen for you.